Technical Help With QuadraFire, Morso and Enviro

[asungtang]

I'm trying to get a wood burning insert that will heat the downstairs that's around ~1,800 sq ft that includes a 17 foot ceiling in the living room. It's an open floor plan. Salespeople told me to double the square footage of living room to figure out how big an insert I need. So with the high ceiling I'm looking at 2,500 sq feet.

Since the EPA testing fuel will be more in line with what I will purchase, I went to the EPA test site to see what a realistic BTU/HR heat ouptut will be ((broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf)). I copy/pasted the info onto a spreadsheet so that I could filter and sort through all the brands/models. (It's available to anyone who's interested but don't want to mess with copying/pasting 18 pages - (broken link removed to https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0BwJmJqkl9BnyMzViMWI4MDgtOTE1Ni00ODAwLWEyYzktNmJjMTRhNDgzMjVj&hl=en_US))

Based upon the numbers at the EPA and visits to different stove shops, I narrowed down the selection to

1. Morso 5660 - marketed as a 50,000 BTU/HR max output, 6 hour burn time, 2,200 sq ft; EPA tested at 50,078 BTU/HR
2. Sherwood Industrie's branch company Enviro, model Boston 1700 - marketed as 74,000 BTU/HR max output, 8 hour burn time, 1,000-2,200 sq ft; EPA test results seems to have a typo

Sherwood Industries, Ltd. Boston 1700 had a max output of 65,000 BTU/HR
Sherwood Industries, Ltd. Boston 1200 had a max output of 74,000 BTU/HR

3. QuadraFire 5100i - marketed as a 75,000 BTU/HR max output, 14 hour burn time, 3200 sq ft; EPA tested at 49,900 BTU/HR

So setting aside user specific loading capabilities and other human factors, can anyone help me understand the following:

1. Given the QF 5100i and Boston 1700 both have around 75,000 BTU/HR, how is it possible for the QF 5100i cover 3,200 sq ft yet the the Boston 1700 covers only up to 2,200 sq ft?

2. Given the fact that The Boston 1700 has a max of 74,000 BTU/HR but the Morso 5660 has only 50,000 BUT/HR, how can they both cover 2,200 sq ft?

3. I live in NJ, For some reason there are no shops around me that have the Boston in stock or even on display. I called up folks who sell the Enviro and they tell me they haven't made any Enviro sales with the past year. I feel like I'm gonna be a guinea pig for customer support. Hearth.com's reviews don't have any reviews about the Boston. Other Enviro stove owners seems to be happy with customer service. However, hearth.com enthusiast Fire Honor Society is very excited about his newly installed Boston (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/78936/). How is the Boston and does it really cover 3,200 sq ft?

BTW - for any of you thinking about making suggestions to ensure the choice is wife approved, I am the wife.

Thanks in advance.

 

[begreen]

The Enviro has a good track record reported here. I can't recall any complaints, but do remember several compliments for this insert. I would seriously consider it.

As for the sq ftg heated, that is mostly marketing speak. There are too many variables to honestly say how many sq ft a stove will heat. The range will be affected by climate, house insulation, ceiling height, window area, etc.. Go by the firebox size instead. Try to get a 2.5-3.0 cu ft insert if one will fit. Some other big inserts you might want to check out are the Jotul C550, Hearthstone Clydesdale, Pacific Energy Summit, Lopi Freedom, and Regency I3100.

 

[kingquad]

I have an Enviro 1700. I really like it, but if I were you I would go bigger. That's a lot of space you're trying to heat. I'd would be looking in the 3.0+ cuft range. I'd be looking at

PE Summit
Regency 3100
Lopi Freedom
The biggest Quadrafire
Osburn 2400

 

[asungtang]

Be Green and KingQuad, thanks for the info. My husband is pro-Clydesdale, but I read just too many complaints about their blowers. Given your recommendations and my husband's convincing argument that Hearthstone fixed the blower issue, I'll put the Clydesdale back in the final list.

As for the Summit and other large inserts, here are my thoughts. Forced hot air furnaces send air out of the supply ducts at ~75 degrees Fahrenheit. These furnaces have massive blowers to send the heated air throughout the house.

A wood burning stove sends heat mainly through convection/radiant and a lesser degree from the blowers. However, the heat from inserts are over 100 degrees Fahrenheit, is that right?

If a regular furnace can efficiently heat ~12,600 cubic feet at ~54,000 BTU/Hr (http://www.calculator.net/btu-calculator.html) with 75 degree air, why would I need more than 54,000 BTU/HR for a fireplace insert to heat the same amount of cubic feet with 100+ degrees heat?

Is a 100,000 BTU/HR fireplace insert really necessary just because I have a 17 foot ceiling in the room, and heat will always prefer to rise?

If I install ceiling fan and set it to reverse to push the warm air back down, would that solve the problem?

 

[kingquad]

You can always build a smaller fire in a bigger stove. Keep in mind that these BTU figures will not be constant throughout the burn. My recommendation is based upon my experience with my own insert. I'm heating less space than you with my Enviro. If I were you, I'd definitely go bigger than the Enviro or Hearthstone. If you are just trying to supplement your furnace, then disregard. If this is a primary heater, go big unless your house is super insulated.

If you want something with a decorative look, then buy the Enviro. It's an awesome insert. It doesn't look as good as the Clydesdale(my opinion), but it can be loaded N/S with an 18in. split. The Clydesdale can't. There doesn't seem to be to many large decorative looking inserts for some reason.

 

[Jags]

Heating 1800 sqft with a tall ceiling and it being an insert. Yep - I will second the notion that you need a pretty good sized stove. 3.0+ is where I would be looking, if it will fit.

 

[asungtang]

KingQuad, Both hubby and I agree with your thoughts of going oversized and just burn less. We looked in the PE Summit and we both would love to have that in our home. However, our townships is inconsistent with the 16" code requirements for clearance on hearth size. Sometimes you can get away with having less than 16" clearance from the door to the edge of the hearth, sometimes you can't. Installers around here will simply tell you that if the inspection fails, then I have to eat the cost. So I can't get anything that bumps out more than 5". That rules out all the over 75,000 BTU/HR inserts. The Summit's bump out, the smallest bump out, measures 6 1/16th inch.

Besides, we are also considering one other factor: resale value. While having something like the Summit in our living room would probably heat the whole house, do we really want something that has a marketing moto of "When Size Counts" in the living room?

 

[asungtang]

FireGod, Yeah yeah...I know I know...the laws of physics support a great big insert. Hubby keeps reminding me that he's really great at physics.

If I leave our forced hot air furnace ON for 6 hours straight, no scheduling, no temperature adjustments, just flat ON, the whole house will probably be around 85 degrees downstairs. The forced hot air furnaces have supply air that's just 75-80 degrees.

There's no OFF on firewood. So I'm guessing this will probably be what will happen with a 75,000 BTU/HR insert

Actual BTU/HR will be around 50,000
Assuming 70% of that heat winds up inside the house, that's 35,000 BTU/HR
Since the heat coming out of the insert is hotter than what's coming out of the furnace, I will wind up with a home that's around 65 degrees throughout the first floor.

I would need to use the forced hot air to jack up the temp to 69 - where the whole family is comfortable. It's not a bad situation to be in. However, I'm hoping that whatever insert I get would do better than that.

 

[Jags]

Since I am the only "Fire god" that has posted to this thread, I will assume that you were responding to me.

I would hesitate to compare a forced air furnace with a wood stove. Some comparisons can be made, but all things are not equal. Also, I would not be using the BTU output that the advertising department "invents" for these stoves. 75000 BTU for two hours is a WHOLE lot different than 40000 BTU for 8. Just sayin'.

My experience (and from what I can tell - most) will base the stoves ability/capability on the style (cat, burn tubes, smoke dragon) and the firebox size. Correctly sizing a stove can be more of an "art" than a "science".

Edit: also be aware that the performance of an insert is many times lagging the performance of a comparable free standing stove.

 

[begreen]

Be Green and KingQuad, thanks for the info. My husband is pro-Clydesdale, but I read just too many complaints about their blowers. Given your recommendations and my husband's convincing argument that Hearthstone fixed the blower issue, I'll put the Clydesdale back in the final list.

As for the Summit and other large inserts, here are my thoughts. Forced hot air furnaces send air out of the supply ducts at ~75 degrees Fahrenheit. These furnaces have massive blowers to send the heated air throughout the house.

A wood burning stove sends heat mainly through convection/radiant and a lesser degree from the blowers. However, the heat from inserts are over 100 degrees Fahrenheit, is that right?

If a regular furnace can efficiently heat ~12,600 cubic feet at ~54,000 BTU/Hr (http://www.calculator.net/btu-calculator.html) with 75 degree air, why would I need more than 54,000 BTU/HR for a fireplace insert to heat the same amount of cubic feet with 100+ degrees heat?

Is a 100,000 BTU/HR fireplace insert really necessary just because I have a 17 foot ceiling in the room, and heat will always prefer to rise?

If I install ceiling fan and set it to reverse to push the warm air back down, would that solve the problem?

Actually, most gas/oil furnaces output heat at around 130F. By the time it comes out of the registers it has cooled down a bit, to say 120F. Even our heat pump has a duct outlet temp of about 110F unless it is very cold outside. Also, a 54,000/btu furnace is a bit small by east coast standards. More typically the furnace size would range between 80K and 120K depending on the house size, glazing and insulation.

The larger insert is being recommended because of several factors. The room has high cubic footage, a larger insert will provide longer burn times and you will almost never be running it at its maximum output. More typically you may be burning it at half of it's max output or less.

A ceiling fan would be a very good idea to help break up heat stratification at the high ceiling peak.

 

[SteveKG]

I would say the ceiling fan is imperative in this situation.

 

[asungtang]

Yup. Looking at ceiling fans now. That'll add 2 hundred+ bucks to the project. Gotta keep the family warm and the propane useage low. Just about anything is cheaper than propane these days.

 

[asungtang]

I learned all inserts go up to 600 degrees. Larger fireboxes yield longer burn times. A hearth guy thinks 100,000 BTU/HR might turn the living room into a sauna.

 

[begreen]

A hearth guy thinks 100,000 BTU/HR might turn the living room into a sauna.

What stove was this? You will not be burning at that output on a daily basis - ever. Stop listening to marketing.

FWIW, a local hearth guy refused to even quote me for our current stove. Said it would drive us outdoors. To put it politely, he was wrong and lost the sale. Fortunately I was able to get a more objective opinion from a pro that knew his business that convinced me it would work. We have a 3 cu ft stove in our home and it has worked out well. Never once have we said, Dang, the stove is too big.

 

[Jags]

I will second every word that BG just posted. Also, there is NO magic number that every insert made is going to hold to. Some may be comfortable running at 550 and some at 700. Your install will also affect these numbers. Height of chimney, draft conditions, etc. This is what I am talking about when I say there is an "art" in selecting the proper stove.

 

[asungtang]

After reading all of your enthusiastic responses, I learned that the following factors were influencing my purchase (the greatest priority being number 1)

1. Had to an EPA stove - no Smoke Dragons or whatever they're called
2. Had to be non-catalytic
3. Price
4. Quality
5. Size (firebox appropriate for 1,800 sq feet, specs meet opening size and code)
6. Aesthetics/Ambiance (will not be detrimental to resale value/nice viewing area)

One person said that it's not possible for inserts to go up 600 Degrees.
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/firepl/msg1102082621721.html?1
CozyHeat on this forum posted on Dec 18 2008 "the insert is now running 650F on the top inner surface (I have a vent that lets me measure the inner steel plate with an IR thermometer) and the air coming out the vent is 300F"


Because most dealers around here sell the Enviro pellet stoves, no one I spoke to (that would 6 dealers and 1 wholesaler) has experience with Enviro Bostons. The Enviro pellet dealers all said that Enviro backs up their pellet stoves great, and the dealers complain about maintenance issues. That makes sense, electronics don't like heat.

Someone offered a very reasonable price for installing the Enviro Boston 1700, because he knew we were concerned that no one around my neck of the woods sold an Enviro Boston 1200 or 1700. Then again, not a whole lot of people in my neck of the woods even consider getting a fireplace insert. I just have to wait for the township to get my permit application back to me.

Now Hubby and I have to decide on a ceiling fan ...

hmmmm... (broken link removed to http://www.bigassfans.com/residential/index.html)

 

[begreen]

600F-650F is cruising temperature for many inserts with a full load of fuel burning. Good luck with the Boston. It's an exceptionally handsome looking stove.

 

[pharmsaler]

I have the Enviro Boston 1700, I will send pics of my insert if you would like or just do a search in the upper left corner by typing in Enviro boston 1700 and see some of my pics.

Any way Here is my take so far. I am very please with my Boston. I have a very large home close to 3800 sq ft. This will heat some of my house as I anticipated. I certainly didn't expect it to heat my entire house.. My gas bill was $79 for December..I was very happy.

This thing throws the heat and I have no problem getting 8 hr burn times.

If anything I would complain about is that the roof is tapered front to back (as I believe all fireplaces are) It will take a 20 inch log length wise without any problem...BUT once you start stacking them 2 high (or more) you start to hit the air tubes. So I have sorted my wood piles into 18" & smaller logs and 18" & larger logs...WHY...because at night when I want to pack the box as full as possible, I use the 18" & smaller logs and put them in sideways and I don't run into hitting the tubes in the back. I have no issue with height in the front.

Overall I LOVE MY STOVE. I paid $2200-ish for the stove, 500 for liner (35'), and 500 for install. I bought this one because my wife agreed it was pretty and my research said it was a good stove...

 

[asungtang]

Pharmsaler, Thanks for the info. If you could send pics that would be great.

My house is only 2,700 Sq. ft, so if the Boston can make your 3,800 Sq. ft. natural gas bill 70 something dollars, I hope the Boston can at least halve my propane bill. It would be so nice if the Boston could do that.

My husband and I decided to try a few things for fuel first. Just to get a measureable sense of what the Boston is capable of, we're going to take the temp of the Boston while it's burning just EcoBrick. EcoBrick is marketed to burn longer than cordwood, but the marketing doesn't say what kind of cordwood. I found a post on a forum who did a relatively controlled experiment and found that EcoBrick (or was it BioBrick?) burned to the equivalent of Ash Wood. However, there were lots of posts saying that the engineered woods actually make rooms hot. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Then we'll try using just 12% moisture hardwoods (cherry and locust) just to see what the difference is. It's great that you figured out that 18" fits best, so we'll get the 18" logs. We have a feeling that we'll wind up doing some sort of mix.

I got my permit today. Now I just need to wait for the installer to get here.

 

[kingquad]

Watch loading your stove full with Ecobricks. They burn really hot. They make my stove go nuclear. They also expand quite a bit.

 

[asungtang]

Kingquad, Point well taken. Will load up just 3/4 of the way. Does that sound like about right or 1/2?

 

[kingquad]

Just try 5 or 6 bricks at first. My wife had 8 take off on her, but it was her first time operating without me. Keep a close eye on it. My insert seems to come up slow from a cold start, but once it hits 350 it moves pretty quickly to 500+. The blower on high will bring the temps down pretty quickly if things get out of hand. Have fun.