Tall chimney + insert = trouble?

[brenndatomu]

So if what you are putting forth is true means that the regency owner and installation manual did not cover issues it should have? And it should have been operated in a manner different than specified in the owners and installation manual? If true I wonder if this is an error of omission or commission by Regency. That is very troubling.

Its not just Regency, many companies seem to ignore the issue, but its still there.
I think a lot of it is that controlling chimney draft means adding devices that add another variable, and likely yet another point of user input/control...which I'm sure would further complicate EPA testing too...this is all over my pay grade, but it seems to me that ignoring the issue that only some customers have, is easier than to properly address it...my 2 ¢.
Just to be clear, the main way of controlling draft would be a manual key damper, which is difficult (but usually possible) to pull off with an insert stove. The other way is a barometric damper, but that wouldn't work with an insert stove, and is controversial anyways...even though some OEM require them (or even include them with new units)

 

[bholler]

Unless you were monitoring the draft with a manometer or magnehelic gauge, you have no idea if you overfired or not...its like driving a car by using the tach only, no speedo...no way to know for sure how fast you were going. If you look around here a little bit, there are threads going on right now where people are finding that their temp readings make no sense with the way their stove is working...or flue temp and stove top temp are drastically different...gotta have a mano or mag gauge on the flue to know what's what, especially on an insert stove.
IME chances are very good that with a chimney over 25' tall and cold weather, draft is above spec/too high...the taller the chimney, and the colder the weather, the more often and the higher the draft tends to go. Some stoves allow for better control than others, but on most stoves with secondary air tubes, there is no control of the secondary air, primary only...so having proper draft spec is important.
I have said it here before, but I'll say it again, I am completly shocked that this issue isn't addressed much, or at all in many/most stove owners manuals!

I don't really agree that constant monitoring of draft is required. But certainly not a bad idea. But especially on taller insert installs a remote temp gauge is almost nessecary.

 

[bholler]

Thank you, do you have certain inserts you recommend for tall chimneys? Or do you prefer to install dampers when above 30’?

I will typically install a damper over 25' these units are typically designed for 15'

 

[brenndatomu]

I don't really agree that constant monitoring of draft is required. But certainly not a bad idea. But especially on taller insert installs a remote temp gauge is almost nessecary.

Oh, I don't think it necessarily needs to be monitored 24/7 (although I do myself) but it would be a good idea for it to be at least checked on a new install...until its known how your stove/chimney is gonna work together, especially with different weather situations.
I'm guessing 90% of new units are installed without a gauge ever being installed on the flue (or its done in weather too warm to burn...meaningless!)
I'm sure some good dealers check all their installs...but sounds like many/most don't...and almost nobody that does a DIY install does it (unless they find out about it here maybe)

 

[bholler]

Oh, I don't think it necessarily needs to be monitored 24/7 (although I do myself) but it would be a good idea for it to be at least checked on a new install...until its known how your stove/chimney is gonna work together, especially with different weather situations.
I'm guessing 90% of new units are installed without a gauge ever being installed on the flue (or its done in weather too warm to burn...meaningless!)
I'm sure some good dealers check all their installs...but sounds like many/most don't...and almost nobody that does a DIY install does it (unless they find out about it here maybe)

I don't test every install but do absolutely install dampers on any that I see a potential issue. And provide a way to monitor temps. I tell everyone to pay attention to the temps and if they have any trouble controlling them let us know. We would then take further action.


Measuring a new install is a problem because they typically need break in fires. And as you said if it is aware weather install the measurement would be meaningless anyway.

 

[skintigh]

I have a 3 story home on a hill about 2 miles from Boston Harbor with a ~35' exterior chimney. I installed a Clydesdale with an uninsulated liner. There are days when the draft is almost scary with the air vent opened, roaring and whoomphing, but now I can close it down and the fire will burn very slowly.

I say "now" because previously it could still burn fairly hot with the air vent completely closed on high-draft days (I measured 4 times then cut the liner half an inch too short and there is zero forgiveness in the included collar). But I used a bunch of fireplace caulk on the collar where the liner connects to the insert and now it's much better behaved. And it sounds less scary during a windstorm -- before I could hear and feel wind whistling/howling out of the collar on the days we get 50-80MPH gusts.

(Those are great days to find air leaks, BTW. I always felt drafts in the bathroom but could never find the causes. It was on one of those days I found several holes in the limestone mortar on a different chimney high up inside the bathroom closet. I found them because I could hear them.)

 

[velvetfoot]

I have a tall chimney and I felt I had overdraft issues on my Hampton 300i insert, a Regency product. I scratched my head for a few weeks, trying to figure out how the intake air was routed. Long story short, there are a bunch of holes on the base. I put some aluminum tape over most of them, leaving one open that I adjust with a piece of bent sheet metal that slides over the hole, and a magnet that keeps it on.

I have a thermocouple on the stove top that controls the speed of the fan (high/low). The higher speed does bring down the temperature for sure.

The feeling of confidence that I can control the fire is fantastic.

Retrofitting a damper probably would've been tough. Plus, sweeping from the bottom as I do, it's hard enough as it is to get my poly pipe to bend 90 degrees and get the brush in the opening. How do you get around a damper?

Anyway, my vote would be to try and control the intake air, if possible. I'm no professional though, so there's that.

 

[bholler]

I have a tall chimney and I felt I had overdraft issues on my Hampton 300i insert, a Regency product. i scratched my head for a few weeks, trying to figure out how the intake air was routed. Long story short, there are a bunch of holes on the base. I put some aluminum tape over most of them, leaving one open that I adjust with a piece of bent sheet metal that slides over the hole, and a magnet that keeps it on.

I have a thermocouple on the stove top that controls the speed of the fan (high/low). The higher speed does bring down the temperature for sure.

The feeling of confidence that I can control the fire is fantastic.

Retrofitting a damper probably would've been tough. Plus, sweeping from the bottom as I do, it's hard enough as it is to get my poly pipe to bend 90 degrees and get the brush in the opening. How do you get around a damper?

Anyway, my vote would be to try and control the intake air, if possible. I'm no professional though, so there's that.

Rotary cleaners go right past a key damper. If I have no other option I will restrict the intake but I would much rather restrict draft to get it right.

 

[velvetfoot]

Rotary cleaners go right past a key damper.

I didn't know that. I'd have to change my cleaning system, which is now a fine-tuned machine, lol.

 

[skintigh]

Ok did you register the stove with regency when you got it? Did you fill out the data page in the back of the manual with the serial number? I am sorry to be a bit harsh about it but what is required for a warranty claim is spelled out in the manual. Yes your dealer should have reminded you of all of that we even fill out the data and keep everything on record. But ultimately you should have done it if they hadn't.

I'm not a lawyer and not sure of the specifics of this company and you certainly know more than me, so I'm not trying to call you a liar or misleading or anything like that. But I had to chime in that in most cases those cards are optional. And privacy advocates say those cards are just to collect personal information for the purposes of marketing and selling to 3rd parties. And this cynic says maybe they are also to weasel out of a warranty/deter claims from people who didn't fill them out because they believe they are void. The manufacturer may imply that you need to fill them out to get the warranty, and may have implied that to you as well, but refusing to honor a warranty is often/usually illegal -- federally since 1975 for all full warranties, I'm not sure about limited warranties, and there may be state laws preventing it for all warranties as well. David's state of CT is one of at least 11 that even bans selling products "as is" to avoid warranties, so it seems to have strong consumer protection laws on the matter https://www.upcounsel.com/warranty-laws-by-state

The warranty card I found on Regency's website says:

"To provide the best support for your product, we request that you complete a product registration form found on our Web Site under Customer Care within ninety (90) days of purchase."

(The emphasis is mine.) So they are not saying it's required, but they would like your personal info anyway.

In fairness to Regency, they did not ask for any blatant marketing demographic info like personal income or household members. However, they can still sell your name, address, phone number, email, and the fact that you live in a house with chimney(s) and one or more of their products, from which advertisers can infer more personal info.

[See also: "warranty void if removed" stickers on electronics. Nope, 100% illegal, and have been since the Gerald Ford administration. But if you're still worried, you can heat those stickers with a hairdryer and slide them out of the way, then back again.]

Do You Really Need That Warranty Card? (Published 2003)

Some experts discourage consumers from returning completed warranty cards, charging that companies use them to build huge advertising databases; federal law makes it possible for companies to require registration, but such demands are rare (M)

www.nytimes.com

Product Registration Cards Review - Consumer Reports

Should you fill out and send in those registration cards found with new products? Consumer Reports experts weigh in with what information you should provide manufactures when you've bought their latest product.

www.consumerreports.org

What Will Void a Warranty? - FindLaw

Under certain circumstances, especially when the consumer has used a product for something other than its intended purpose, a merchant may choose not to honor the terms of a warranty by declaring it void. But sometimes merchants may attempt to void a warranty

www.findlaw.com

 

[bholler]

I'm not a lawyer and not sure of the specifics of this company and you certainly know more than me, so I'm not trying to call you a liar or misleading or anything like that. But I had to chime in that in most cases those cards are optional. And privacy advocates say those cards are just to collect personal information for the purposes of marketing and selling to 3rd parties. And this cynic says maybe they are also to weasel out of a warranty/deter claims from people who didn't fill them out because they believe they are void. The manufacturer may imply that you need to fill them out to get the warranty, and may have implied that to you as well, but refusing to honor a warranty is often/usually illegal -- federally since 1975 for all full warranties, I'm not sure about limited warranties, and there may be state laws preventing it for all warranties as well. David's state of CT is one of at least 11 that even bans selling products "as is" to avoid warranties, so it seems to have strong consumer protection laws on the matter https://www.upcounsel.com/warranty-laws-by-state

The warranty card I found on Regency's website says:

(The emphasis is mine.) So they are not saying it's required, but they would like your personal info anyway.

In fairness to Regency, they did not ask for any blatant marketing demographic info like personal income or household members. However, they can still sell your name, address, phone number, email, and the fact that you live in a house with chimney(s) and one or more of their products, from which advertisers can infer more personal info.

[See also: "warranty void if removed" stickers on electronics. Nope, 100% illegal, and have been since the Gerald Ford administration. But if you're still worried, you can heat those stickers with a hairdryer and slide them out of the way, then back again.]

Do You Really Need That Warranty Card? (Published 2003)

Some experts discourage consumers from returning completed warranty cards, charging that companies use them to build huge advertising databases; federal law makes it possible for companies to require registration, but such demands are rare (M)

www.nytimes.com

Product Registration Cards Review - Consumer Reports

Should you fill out and send in those registration cards found with new products? Consumer Reports experts weigh in with what information you should provide manufactures when you've bought their latest product.

www.consumerreports.org

What Will Void a Warranty? - FindLaw

Under certain circumstances, especially when the consumer has used a product for something other than its intended purpose, a merchant may choose not to honor the terms of a warranty by declaring it void. But sometimes merchants may attempt to void a warranty

www.findlaw.com

Yes the warranty cards are absolutely optional. But as it stands the poster has no receipt proving they are the original owner. And they have no serial number for the unit because the tag is deteriorated from heat (one of the sights it has been running to hot). Because they are missing those things if they had done the other things I mentioned they would have a much better chance of having regency honor the warranty.

 

[velvetfoot]

How is all this warranty stuff related to the original post?

 

[bholler]

How is all this warranty stuff related to the original post?

It isn't

 

[davidmsem]

I'm not a lawyer and not sure of the specifics of this company and you certainly know more than me, so I'm not trying to call you a liar or misleading or anything like that. But I had to chime in that in most cases those cards are optional. And privacy advocates say those cards are just to collect personal information for the purposes of marketing and selling to 3rd parties. And this cynic says maybe they are also to weasel out of a warranty/deter claims from people who didn't fill them out because they believe they are void. The manufacturer may imply that you need to fill them out to get the warranty, and may have implied that to you as well, but refusing to honor a warranty is often/usually illegal -- federally since 1975 for all full warranties, I'm not sure about limited warranties, and there may be state laws preventing it for all warranties as well. David's state of CT is one of at least 11 that even bans selling products "as is" to avoid warranties, so it seems to have strong consumer protection laws on the matter https://www.upcounsel.com/warranty-laws-by-state

The warranty card I found on Regency's website says:

(The emphasis is mine.) So they are not saying it's required, but they would like your personal info anyway.

In fairness to Regency, they did not ask for any blatant marketing demographic info like personal income or household members. However, they can still sell your name, address, phone number, email, and the fact that you live in a house with chimney(s) and one or more of their products, from which advertisers can infer more personal info.

Thank you for your thoughtful message.

I understand Regency's concern - is this the real original owner with a problem?

I have provided proof of address as well as pictures of the install being performed by the installer (pictures of truck in driveway, unit unboxing, crew installing flu, crew installing unit in fireplace etc. )

So the reality of the situation is that I AM the original owner, have photo evidence of the install, provided documentation proving I have lived here since 1994.

I have spend time working with my credit card holders and checking account holder to see if they can look up my old statements and check. Evidently there is universal response about being outside of the 7 year window (probably the maximum time they must retain by law).

That's the best that I can do for Regency.

My dealer is making one last attempt to explain the complication of the prior owners going bankrupt right after the time of my install, and provide additional photographs from the 2014 install.

Right now Regency is saying I'm out of luck. We have one last appeal, after that I'm not sure what I can do other than share may experience and warn others. If burnt, I certainly will not be replacing my insert with a Regency product.

Fingers crossed that my dealer can demonstrate that I am indeed the original owner and this is enough for Regency.

From a consumer standpoint, would it feel like they were "looking for an out" if they continue to say "no claim". Absolutely. Who wouldn't?

Thanks for the message.

 

[bholler]

Thank you for your thoughtful message.

I understand Regency's concern - is this the real original owner with a problem?

I have provided proof of address as well as pictures of the install being performed by the installer (pictures of truck in driveway, unit unboxing, crew installing flu, crew installing unit in fireplace etc. )

So the reality of the situation is that I AM the original owner, have photo evidence of the install, provided documentation proving I have lived here since 1994.

I have spend time working with my credit card holders and checking account holder to see if they can look up my old statements and check. Evidently there is universal response about being outside of the 7 year window (probably the maximum time they must retain by law).

That's the best that I can do for Regency.

My dealer is making one last attempt to explain the complication of the prior owners going bankrupt right after the time of my install, and provide additional photographs from the 2014 install.

Right now Regency is saying I'm out of luck. We have one last appeal, after that I'm not sure what I can do other than share may experience and warn others. If burnt, I certainly will not be replacing my insert with a Regency product.

Fingers crossed that my dealer can demonstrate that I am indeed the original owner and this is enough for Regency.

From a consumer standpoint, would it feel like they were "looking for an out" if they continue to say "no claim". Absolutely. Who wouldn't?

Thanks for the message.

The lesson to be learned from this is save your receipt and record your serial number in the manual where it says to. Without those things and anything else the warranty agreement from the manufacturer calls for your claim will be denied. Or in this case without a serial number there can't even be a claim made.

 

[davidmsem]

The lesson to be learned from this is save your receipt and record your serial number in the manual where it says to. Without those things and anything else the warranty agreement from the manufacturer calls for your claim will be denied. Or in this case without a serial number there can't even be a claim made.

Well technically correct, the most ethical thing to do would be to stand behind the product. There's nothing suspicious or unusual or criminal going on here. There's enough other evidence to prove to a reasonable person that the consumer should be protected. Yes fill out your warranty card because Regency will leave you high and dry if you don't follow the exact letter of the law.

 

[begreen]

Well technically correct, the most ethical thing to do would be to stand behind the product. There's nothing suspicious or unusual or criminal going on here. There's enough other evidence to prove to a reasonable person that the consumer should be protected. Yes fill out your warranty card because Regency will leave you high and dry if you don't follow the exact letter of the law.

Pretty much standard procedure with any company. Otherwise how would they know if one is the original purchaser?
Time to stop the thread hijack and bashing a company in multiple threads. Use the stove ratings to post a review. We're sorry you have had a bad experience and hope that it gets resolved amicably.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/faq/view/1/

"However, quoted from our original forum rules, please note:
"It is against the Forum Rules to spend endless threads promoting a certain brand or product, even if you don't financially benefit from it (and, of course, if you do!)."

The reasoning is simple - if a single member has 200 posts complaining about a certain product or brand, it tends to slant the forum in a direction which may not be accurate. However, if 20 members review their stove in our ratings sections and have poor experiences, that is likely to mean a lot more."

 

[bholler]

Well technically correct, the most ethical thing to do would be to stand behind the product. There's nothing suspicious or unusual or criminal going on here. There's enough other evidence to prove to a reasonable person that the consumer should be protected. Yes fill out your warranty card because Regency will leave you high and dry if you don't follow the exact letter of the law.

You have no serial number. Without a serial number they have no way to even start a claim. They can and sometimes do overlook the requirement to have the receipt. But there is absolutely no way to overlook the lack of a serial number. I absolutely believe you that there is nothing criminal going on but from the companies perspective trying to file a claim without a receipt or serial number is absolutely suspicious.

 

[EbS-P]

I could have gotten a brand new 2000$ elliptical if I could have found my receipt from 11 years ago. 120$ for a welder and 30$ For steel it’s been fixed. It was my fault and I tried for weeks to think where that dang receipt was. Never found it.

 

[BrianVA]

What I can't tell, of course, is how common those problems really are. People who don't have problems probably (mostly) aren't posting, or if they do, the might not say how tall their chimney is, etc.

I have an insert (Lopi Large Flush) with a 28 foot insulated liner, straight up with no bends or offsets. I have no problem at all with excessive draft. The draft is very good and makes smoke spillage almost non-existent with the bypass open. The air control on the insert offers plenty of control for the fire. In fact, I rarely close it all the way. For "cruising" status on a full load of well seasoned oak, I usually have it about 1/4" to 1/8" shy of fully closed.

That is my experience. YMMV. I hope this helps.

 

[stoveliker]

@bholler (since you have a way into Regency headquarters that we don't): I am very surprised that stove mfgs do not punch in the serial number with a -duh- punch. Not criticism to you - but a request to contact the mfg with a suggestion to improve customer experience (and possibly help the technical support staff who can now *always* get a S/N from any customer, even if the stove is old/been too hot/[whatever]).

After all this is a metal product. And one that gets hot. The former allows a permanent set of numbers easily punched into the metal, and the latter necessitates it (b/c stickers don't have eternal life, especially for items that get HOT).

This holds for all stove manufacturers. (@BKVP, @lampmfg, and I don't know more).
This would solve quite a few issues at the expense of 5 minutes of one employee that punches the numbers at a suitable place after the sticker is (also) put on.

@davidmsem I'm sorry if this is the outcome. With the pics of the install, it should have been clear to the mfg that you are indeed the original owner. As that has been communicated (on this forum) to be the reason for needing the S/N (b/c warranty only extends to the original owner), then that "chain of custody" should have been evident.
I do think that the mfg here should have thought about the goal of the rules rather than the letter of the rules.

 

[bholler]

@bholler (since you have a way into Regency headquarters that we don't): I am very surprised that stove mfgs do not punch in the serial number with a -duh- punch. Not criticism to you - but a request to contact the mfg with a suggestion to improve customer experience (and possibly help the technical support staff who can now *always* get a S/N from any customer, even if the stove is old/been too hot/[whatever]).

After all this is a metal product. And one that gets hot. The former allows a permanent set of numbers easily punched into the metal, and the latter necessitates it (b/c stickers don't have eternal life, especially for items that get HOT).

This holds for all stove manufacturers. (@BKVP, @lampmfg, and I don't know more).
This would solve quite a few issues at the expense of 5 minutes of one employee that punches the numbers at a suitable place after the sticker is (also) put on.

I agree completely they should punch it into the metal.

 

[AstroBoy]

Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences here - very useful to hear (even if the thread did wander a bit 😂).

@JonH no worries about thread hijacking - your comments were right on topic, and this part made me smile:

I have accidently become obsessed and addicted with wood burning inserts

@bholler when you mention installing (or at least offering) monitoring for your clients, you are primarily talking about monitoring of flue temperature (rather than draft) - is that correct?

 

[bholler]

Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences here - very useful to hear (even if the thread did wander a bit 😂).

@JonH no worries about thread hijacking - your comments were right on topic, and this part made me smile:


@bholler when you mention installing (or at least offering) monitoring for your clients, you are primarily talking about monitoring of flue temperature (rather than draft) - is that correct?

Yes. As long as your temps are controllable the draft measurement isn't very important

 

[BrianVA]

@bholler when you mention installing (or at least offering) monitoring for your clients, you are primarily talking about monitoring of flue temperature (rather than draft) - is that correct?

I will add that I measure temperature with an Auber AT-210. I use the washer style probe, and for now, its just tucked into the band clamp that goes around the flue connection (I call it the flue collar but not sure if that's the right term). I couldn't bring myself to drill a hole. Measuring temps on an insert can be a bit trickier than a free standing stove. The recommendation is to go 18" above the unit with a probe inside the flue, but I don't have access 18" up. My setup gives me data and is good enough for my purposes.

Like many others, when I was first starting out, I was super concerned about over-firing. But I have never had a problem and have never overfired the unit.