Swapping to a steel cat in the Blaze King

[Woody Stover]

stainless substrates are more durable, but not the wash coat.

Thanks for the info.

I do not believe it has been confirmed the plating peeled.

I've never seen any cat of mine that looked like what I see in his 006.jpg and 010.jpg. Too bad he didn't try to simmer it out in the vinegar/water solution to see if that made a difference. (Would have given us a better look at what is under the fly ash, too.) What has been confirmed by Highbeam is that in the third year, his cat wasn't burning as cleanly as it did before. There has to be a reason for that, and for what appears to be a crack in the face of the cat (not sure that's the case.) The diesel-foil cat (which you dissed) in my BIL's Fireview has got 4 years on it. He's shriveled it, but it still burns clean. Highbeam says his wood is dry. Maybe he had a leaking door gasket, but I'd have thought he would be keeping an eye on that, since it has been mentioned in several threads. That might cause cracking, but not failure. What we don't know is how he runs his stove. This is his first cat stove, and he's now found that he's done something that fried his cat in three years, and maybe it's not a simple as just running the cat probe up to the active line and closing the bypass. I also wonder about the advice to run the stove wide open for an hour, with the cat engaged, once a week. That just sounds to me like it would pound the cat with massive amounts of heat. But like I said, I'm no cat expert, just pondering...

How about, "way to go Highbeam! No smoke is the way to go." And we can move on.

If we move on, what have we learned, besides the fact that he put in a new cat and it worked? I was hoping to find out why the other one crapped out so quickly, so maybe I could operate my cats better. I assume you see reports on returned, failed cats. You have seen thousands of these dead cats, and probably have a pretty good idea what happened in this case, but I guess I can't really expect you to acknowledge that there is a way to screw up when running one of your stoves. Your stock-in-trade is the idea of a simple to run, thermostat-controlled, set-and-forget appliance. Your job here is to present your product in the best possible light, and to try to find a solution when people are having problems with your stoves, to reassure potential buyers. Me, I don't care if it's harder to run a cat stove; The payoffs are huge and I'm a cat guy all the way. I'm just not yet willing to buy into the BK hype like some of the cat newbies around here have....

 

[rdust]

I'm just not yet willing to buy into the BK hype like some of the cat newbies around here have....

It's not hype the stove performs as well if not better than how it's marketed. We've all been around long enough to see failed cats from the BK stoves, WS stoves and Buck stoves. Countless posts around here explain why cats fails, this thread wasn't about why cats fail.

I don't treat my cat in any way nice, I flip the bypass closed as soon as the fire has taken hold not when the little gauge tells me too, I don't care if the cat is 900* and I want to add a split I'll flip the bypass toss a piece in and close the bypass. I just finished the fourth season with mine, it has some cracks but still lights off fine. I do think it's suffering a little at the end of the burn I think that's due to the hours on it more than anything else. I agree with you cat stoves are great and in my home I'll never own anything but a cat stove.

 

[BKVP]

Thanks for the info.
I've never seen any cat of mine that looked like what I see in his 006.jpg and 010.jpg. Too bad he didn't try to simmer it out in the vinegar/water solution to see if that made a difference. (Would have given us a better look at what is under the fly ash, too.) What has been confirmed by Highbeam is that in the third year, his cat wasn't burning as cleanly as it did before. There has to be a reason for that, and for what appears to be a crack in the face of the cat (not sure that's the case.) The diesel-foil cat (which you dissed) in my BIL's Fireview has got 4 years on it. He's shriveled it, but it still burns clean. Highbeam says his wood is dry. Maybe he had a leaking door gasket, but I'd have thought he would be keeping an eye on that, since it has been mentioned in several threads. That might cause cracking, but not failure. What we don't know is how he runs his stove. This is his first cat stove, and he's now found that he's done something that fried his cat in three years, and maybe it's not a simple as just running the cat probe up to the active line and closing the bypass. I also wonder about the advice to run the stove wide open for an hour, with the cat engaged, once a week. That just sounds to me like it would pound the cat with massive amounts of heat. But like I said, I'm no cat expert, just pondering...
If we move on, what have we learned, besides the fact that he put in a new cat and it worked? I was hoping to find out why the other one crapped out so quickly, so maybe I could operate my cats better. I assume you see reports on returned, failed cats. You have seen thousands of these dead cats, and probably have a pretty good idea what happened in this case, but I guess I can't really expect you to acknowledge that there is a way to screw up when running one of your stoves. Your stock-in-trade is the idea of a simple to run, thermostat-controlled, set-and-forget appliance. Your job here is to present your product in the best possible light, and to try to find a solution when people are having problems with your stoves, to reassure potential buyers. Me, I don't care if it's harder to run a cat stove; The payoffs are huge and I'm a cat guy all the way. I'm just not yet willing to buy into the BK hype like some of the cat newbies around here have....

My job is not to promote the products we make, not on this site. Cracks in the substrate alone would not have caused the smoke issue, period. I have asked him at his discretion to send me the old cat for a review. As for the diesel foil combustors, I am not dissing them, I am telling the truth. They do not handle the temps that dura foil combustors do, period. Ask the folks that made your stove why they replaced all of them to the dura foil in production units. As for dead cats, we have not seen thousands of these, not even close! If we had thousands fail, we sure as heck could not offer a 10 year warranty. The fact is, our failure rate is so low (fewer each year than anyone would or could imagine) we offer the 10 year OEM cat warranty.

As for my desire to not acknowledge that our products can't be screwed up, sit at my desk one day and you'll see that is far from the truth! As Friday said in Dragnet, just the facts. Highbeams cat did not respond in a normal fashion from day one, as far as I can ascertain. Two, NOT the Federal warranty nor our manufacturers warranty kicked in to resolve the smoke issue. I did. I wanted clear the air for him and his understanding of how our products perform in the 99% percentile, not his experience alone.

In my capacity and my travels, I deal with some unqualified number of wood stove users, retailers and manufacturers...annually. This is a great website! However, if you count the total number of actual participants, it's a small group. There's me, you, Highbeam, BeGreen, etc. With the exception of the high level of experience that Webby has (and his passion and dedication to own one of every stove ever made) this is a hard core group of wood burners, each with their unique experiences. We have 3-4 Ashford users here that have some smoke issues. That's it. No more. If there were more, you can bet the consumer or the dealers would be ripping us apart. So, we'll get these resolved and move on. As for our products being perfect, 100% of the time.....

Perhaps you missed the update I posted on the Princess that EVERYONE tried to help with on this site. We finally got around to testing the unit and found the glass in the door was massively leaking around the edges. I was happy to post the truth, we screwed up and a door was not built correctly. Sadly, it was a simple fix, swap out the door or tighten the retainers. That stove was donated to church for a kids camp, so in the end I think it was all good but I would much rather of had the original owner happy with his stove and investment. I wish that for all wood stove buyers, not just BK owners.

 

[Woody Stover]

As for dead cats, we have not seen thousands of these, not even close

I'm not saying that thousands have failed prematurely, just that you have probably seen your share of cats, since it appears in the warranty that dealers send them back to you for inspection. I haven't called in a warranty yet. I felt that the one diesel-foil that my SIL 'used up' was her fault. I feel that 5 yrs. of decent performance is about what I should expect, with the amount of hours I put on my cats.

Cracks in the substrate alone would not have caused the smoke issue

Right. I was just wondering how that happened with softwood dried for two years. I'm not even convinced that it's a crack, since you don't see it in the pic he took from the other end of the ceramic cat...

I have asked him at his discretion to send me the old cat for a review.

If you're able to report back with what you find, that would be awesome.

They do not handle the temps that dura foil combustors do. Ask the folks that made your stove why they replaced all of them to the dura foil in production units.

No argument there; Two of my in-laws have shriveled diesel-foil cats to the point that I had to rig them to keep them in place. Both stoves are Fireviews. It's possible that in your stoves, 'shrinkage' would be less likely; The cat is probably protected more, from flame heat anyway, by the steel plate with holes, rather than a screen or expanded metal like the WS stoves. I can't wait to get my hands on the Dura-foils, but until the diesels in my Dutchwest and Keystone die, I'll just have to wait to try one.

Highbeams cat did not respond in a normal fashion from day one, as far as I can ascertain.

OK, I did not know that. I thought he just started seeing more smoke this season.

the high level of experience that Webby has (and his passion and dedication to own one of every stove ever made)

I value webby's input here, and have learned a lot from his posts. I don't think he's got a lot of cat experience, though. Maybe a Dutchwest, but these things are a little different, as I found out after running mine all of this season. His Cape Cod was a different kettle of fish. And that's really where my "hype" comment was aimed; Guys that try a cat stove after they have had tube stoves are totally blown away by the performance and they become instant fanboys of their new 'miracle stove,' be it a BK, WS or whatever.

Perhaps you missed the update...We finally got around to testing the unit and found the glass in the door was massively leaking around the edges

I saw that. Shame they didn't catch that, and it's something that's easily overlooked. I never really thought about it until I stumbled on loose glass in my SIL's Fireview. You just don't think of glass gasket wearing out like you do a door gasket.

.....I would much rather of had the original owner happy with his stove and investment. I wish that for all wood stove buyers, not just BK owners.

Well said...same here. I haven't yet come to my own conclusion about the BKs, and am taking all the comments with a grain of salt. Heck, I haven't even had a chance to look at your stoves in person yet. The closest place to me is webby's shop. It's a few hours away and I'm not sure when I'll get up that way. Better yet would be to see one in action. Maybe I can get someone around here to buy one.
Anyway, I admire the way you've taken the high road in the face of my blunt style. My tendency to call 'em like I see 'em and my lack of people skills are a couple of the many reasons I was never a VP of anything.

 

[Ashful]

The diesel-foil cat (which you dissed) in my BIL's Fireview has got 4 years on it. He's shriveled it, but it still burns clean.

Keep in mind, non-catalytic re-burn will still occur in a catalytic combustor at temps > 1000F, even if the catalyst is completely depleted. Given that this combustor is wrinkled, it's not a big leap to assume it's burning clean because it's achieving non-catalytic reburn temps.

What Highbeam was reporting is a different situation, the catalyst not completely combusting the smoke at temperatures in the 500 - 1000F catalytic active range.

 

[Highbeam]

Yes, I was being "cagey" about whether I used the bk warranty on the cat. Bkvp read my description about how and when I was seeing blue smoke and offered to try some things to help. I will send my old ceramic cat in for an autopsy. If there is something I can do to, or you can do, to prevent cat failure based on what he finds then I am happy be the guy that screwed up for the benefit of all.

I sat outside last night after engaging the cat on a half load of dry wood to watch the smoke disappear as the stat reduced air automatically. It was either that, or maybe also the gin&tonic, that made me happy.

I can't wait until fall to give this cat a real workout with a full load of fuel and shooting for a 24+ hour burn.

 

[Woody Stover]

Keep in mind, non-catalytic re-burn will still occur in a catalytic combustor at temps > 1000F, even if the catalyst is completely depleted. Given that this combustor is wrinkled, it's not a big leap to assume it's burning clean because it's achieving non-catalytic reburn temps.

On my BIL's shriveled cat, I simmered it out, then rigged up a few support wires that suspend the cat squarely in the cast iron frame (the Dura-foils don't use a cast frame but are suspended by integral tabs, as you see in Highbeam's pic.) I then wrapped it in new interam gasket. In addition to no smoke from the stack, I can see the cat glowing when the stove is burning low, so it is working.
Here's a pic of a diesel-foil for comparison. Notice that the Dura is constructed with the honeycomb straight across, and the diesel is some type of circular wrap. Unfortunately, I no longer have a pic of a shriveled one. This is the one I have in the Keystone; At 2 yrs (at moderate temps) it's about pristine. I also still have the ceramic that came with the Ks. I haven't seen a Dura yet but I'm guessing the foil is thicker as well.

(broken image removed)

 

[tarzan]

Woody, get a BK. Then you will know why BKVP can post here.

 

[Woody Stover]

Woody, get a BK. Then you will know why BKVP can post here.

I think I might try a Ws 211 next, so I may never know why BKVP can post here.

 

[Highbeam]

Another nice fire last night with the steelcat. Raining and 42 degrees out. I am able to set the stat lower than I could with the ceramic without snuffing the cat. Maybe hypersensitive new cat or maybe my old one was that bad.

 

[Ashful]

Running AC here, tonight. Would be nice to open the windows, as temps are nice outside now, but our pollen counts are off the charts this week.

 

[blueguy]

We have 3-4 Ashford users here that have some smoke issues. That's it. No more.

And a Sirocco owner here