Super 27 running very hot

[begreen]

Hello begreen. Oh well now I'm confused because the firebox I have is definitely not 18'' wide. It is a bit less then 16''. I have the Super LE, not the Super Classic. Not sure if this makes a difference?

Thanks for your clear explanations. It seems a key damper would really help.

In the meantime I think I have found a solution to prevent the nuclear second combustion from happening during reloads. First I rake some of the coals to the front of the firebox as suggested here and elsewhere. I then squeeze small/medium size logs as tight as possible on the first "level" of the firebox. Then I take ashes from my ash bucket and sprinkle some between each logs to restrict air flow. I stack a second layer of larger logs on top of that and again I add some ashes between the logs. So far it has been working extremely well, I'm impressed.

My bad. I just conferred with my next-door neighbor who told me he loads his Spectrum E/W from time to time. He said that the splits are shorter, more like 14-15" for that loading. So I went and checked the EPA lab report. You are right. The LE firebox dimension has not changed. It's 15.125" wide according to the report.

That's an interesting workaround. I don't think I have heard of this before, but I can see how that would help. Very clever.

 

[flamontagne]

@flamontagne I don't have this stove but had a similar problem that took me about 3 weeks to figure out. Have you located where the stove draws in the secondary air? Does this stove have removable jackets on the side? My stove had 6 extra secondary air holes hidden underneath the jackets. I had to block off 4 of them and the main secondary ports to make mine controllable. Just a thought. I know how scary/frustrating a way to hot runaway stove can be

Hmm very interesting. Indeed my stove has removable jackets on the side. I'm going to remove them to check if there are secondary air holes located there. What did you use to block them, magnets?

My bad. I just conferred with my next-door neighbor who told me he loads his Spectrum E/W from time to time. He said that the splits are shorter, more like 14-15" for that loading. So I went and checked the EPA lab report. You are right. The LE firebox dimension has not changed. It's 15.125" wide according to the report.

That's an interesting workaround. I don't think I have heard of this before, but I can see how that would help. Very clever.

Thanks! I had this idea by reading posts from knowledgeable people like yourself on this forum. When you said I had to restrict the airflow more in the firebox it got me thinking about ways to achieve this. The outside temperature is expected to sharply decline in the next days so we'll see if this trick still work with the stronger draft.

 

[begreen]

Hmm very interesting. Indeed my stove has removable jackets on the side. I'm going to remove them to check if there are secondary air holes located there. What did you use to block them, magnets?

Don't bother. The Super LE's secondary feed is on the bottom of the stove, regulated by the EBT. It feeds secondary air via the tube that goes up into the rear center of the baffle. The boost air is not needed with a strong draft. That can be permanently blocked off. I would put in a key damper before messing with the secondary. It's the draft that will vary with outdoor temps and wind.

 

[flamontagne]

Don't bother. The Super LE's secondary feed is on the bottom of the stove, regulated by the EBT. It feeds secondary air via the tube that goes up into the rear center of the baffle. The boost air is not needed with a strong draft. That can be permanently blocked off. I would put in a key damper before messing with the secondary. It's the draft that will vary with outdoor temps and wind.

View attachment 308362

Ah I see now. Thanks for this graph, very useful.

 

[Vg3200p]

Ah sorry to steer you wrong was just a thought. Any better luck controlling it?

 

[flamontagne]

Ah sorry to steer you wrong was just a thought. Any better luck controlling it?

No worries, thanks for the suggestion. As for having better luck controlling the fire, I would say a resounding YES in general, but not all the time. This morning I was back at 600f on my surface pipe thermometer (single wall). I was feeling a bit overconfident with my new "ash trick" so I loaded the stove a bit more... whoops. It didn't work out as well as before. There was still too much airflow in the stove, I probably didn't put enough ashes between the logs, I don't know.

It's funny because when I look at the fire, it seems just fine to me. Bold and intense but not over the top. It looks exactly like in all the videos on YouTube featuring new EPA stoves. I remember someone here (I think it's Begreen) saying that a normal fire combined with a too hot flue temp could mean an excessive draft... and that a key damper would solve the problem. I will certainly install one next year even though my Pacific Energy dealer told me it was not needed and that "having a strong draft was good". His advice is to stop fulling the firebox and add only 2 logs at a time. It works fairly well but I'm not sure it is optimal when it's cold outside and I need more heat.

 

[Woody Stover]

I remember someone here (I think it's Begreen) saying that a normal fire combined with a too hot flue temp could mean an excessive draft... and that a key damper would solve the problem. I will certainly install one next year even though my Pacific Energy dealer told me it was not needed and that "having a strong draft was good". His advice is to stop fulling the firebox and add only 2 logs at a time. It works fairly well but I'm not sure it is optimal when it's cold outside and I need more heat.

I've found, with the two dealers here anyway, that it's hit or miss as to how much they really know about wood stoves. You want the option to be able to load more wood for a longer burn or more heat if you need it.
Putting in a flue damper is pretty easy, and doesn't take too long. If you have backup heat, let the stove go cold and slap one in (I stacked two in my SIL's connector pipe, and that's on only 16' of chimney.) Now, if she loads big but gets too much wood burning initially, she can actually slow the air to the point that she can cut back the amount of wood involved.
All you do is disconnect the stove and see where the damper needs to go in the pipe so that it doesn't stick down into the firebox when in the closed position. Get the first one as low as possible, so that you can add another if you want (or you could put the upper damper in first.) Then measure the circumference of the pipe where you want to drill the holes for the damper shaft. Half that and mark your holes, getting them at the same height. Drill 'em out. Then before you install the damper, take it off and back on the shaft a few times to familiarize yourself with how you will have to manipulate the shaft with one hand, as you hold the damper plate in the other up inside the pipe. Easy peasy.

 

[flamontagne]

I've found, with the two dealers here anyway, that it's hit or miss as to how much they really know about wood stoves. You want the option to be able to load more wood for a longer burn or more heat if you need it.
Putting in a flue damper is pretty easy, and doesn't take too long. If you have backup heat, let the stove go cold and slap one in (I stacked two in my SIL's connector pipe, and that's on only 16' of chimney.) Now, if she loads big but gets too much wood burning initially, she can actually slow the air to the point that she can cut back the amount of wood involved.
All you do is disconnect the stove and see where the damper needs to go in the pipe so that it doesn't stick down into the firebox when in the closed position. Get the first one as low as possible, so that you can add another if you want (or you could put the upper damper in first.) Then measure the circumference of the pipe where you want to drill the holes for the damper shaft. Half that and mark your holes, getting them at the same height. Drill 'em out. Then before you install the damper, take it off and back on the shaft a few times to familiarize yourself with how you will have to manipulate the shaft with one hand, as you hold the damper plate in the other up inside the pipe. Easy peasy.

Awesome thanks for the detailed instructions! I'm sure the damper will make a world of difference. I don't understand why my dealer dismiss the possibility that the draft in my chimney might be too strong. He also says he cannot install a damper because he is not allowed to do so due to some construction regulations in my province. He says this is because a damper could be a risk of having a return of smoke and potentially carbon monoxyde in the house. I don't even understand how it would be possible with the kind of draft I have. I will try to get more information on that. Pretty sure there is nothing preventing me from installing a key damper myself.

 

[Highbeam]

Awesome thanks for the detailed instructions! I'm sure the damper will make a world of difference. I don't understand why my dealer dismiss the possibility that the draft in my chimney might be too strong. He also says he cannot install a damper because he is not allowed to do so due to some construction regulations in my province. He says this is because a damper could be a risk of having a return of smoke and potentially carbon monoxyde in the house. I don't even understand how it would be possible with the kind of draft I have. I will try to get more information on that. Pretty sure there is nothing preventing me from installing a key damper myself.

The dealer is being difficult because he is either ignorant or is fully aware his product won’t work right without controlling my draft and he feels unable to do it.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

My local PE dealer didn't know or understand the different firebox designs of the stoves he sold. I would never expect him to understand key dampers.

 

[Split]

No worries, thanks for the suggestion. As for having better luck controlling the fire, I would say a resounding YES in general, but not all the time. This morning I was back at 600f on my surface pipe thermometer (single wall). I was feeling a bit overconfident with my new "ash trick" so I loaded the stove a bit more... whoops. It didn't work out as well as before. There was still too much airflow in the stove, I probably didn't put enough ashes between the logs, I don't know.

It's funny because when I look at the fire, it seems just fine to me. Bold and intense but not over the top. It looks exactly like in all the videos on YouTube featuring new EPA stoves. I remember someone here (I think it's Begreen) saying that a normal fire combined with a too hot flue temp could mean an excessive draft... and that a key damper would solve the problem. I will certainly install one next year even though my Pacific Energy dealer told me it was not needed and that "having a strong draft was good". His advice is to stop fulling the firebox and add only 2 logs at a time. It works fairly well but I'm not sure it is optimal when it's cold outside and I need more heat.

The problem is the thermometer and trying to control fire. If it looks fine and is burning fine then what is the issue? You're literally dumping ashes on your fire. A bit excessive and not worth it to me. Maybe just let it go and burn your wood. Flues get hot. Mine burns upward of 1200° on a double wall and then settles to burn at 900 for most of the burn. That's in the safe zone according to my Condor thermometer. The temps will rise and fall with woodstoves. They will not burn at a steady rate for your fire. Heat.org goes into this with detail. I feel it's good advice from woodheat.org.

A non-commercial service in support of responsible home heating with wood - Flue Pipe Thermometers

The Wood Heat Organization was formed to support the public in the responsible use of wood energy in the home. We fulfill our mandate by providing reliable information, by conducting research into wood heating-related issues and by representing the public interest in discussions of policies that...

www.woodheat.org

Best of luck.

 

[flamontagne]

The problem is the thermometer and trying to control fire. If it looks fine and is burning fine then what is the issue? You're literally dumping ashes on your fire. A bit excessive and not worth it to me. Maybe just let it go and burn your wood. Flues get hot. Mine burns upward of 1200° on a double wall and then settles to burn at 900 for most of the burn. That's in the safe zone according to my Condor thermometer. The temps will rise and fall with woodstoves. They will not burn at a steady rate for your fire. Heat.org goes into this with detail. I feel it's good advice from woodheat.org.

A non-commercial service in support of responsible home heating with wood - Flue Pipe Thermometers

The Wood Heat Organization was formed to support the public in the responsible use of wood energy in the home. We fulfill our mandate by providing reliable information, by conducting research into wood heating-related issues and by representing the public interest in discussions of policies that...

www.woodheat.org

Best of luck.

Thanks it's good to read that I am not alone reaching these flue temps. I am becoming less in less concerned about breaking some part in the stove. No part of the stove ever glowed red even when the magnetic pipe thermometer reached 700f (just happened once). It's more the feeling of wasting heat that is putting me off. The wood is burning faster than necessary and too much heat escape outside. My hope is that if I can reduce the draft a little then the combustion will slow down. The fact that I am mostly burning birch this year is probably playing a role though. It tends to burn fast and hot.

 

[begreen]

Mine burns upward of 1200° on a double wall and then settles to burn at 900 for most of the burn.

That's a bit inefficient. It's sending excess heat up the flue. Try closing down the air a bit sooner so that the peak, probe flue temp does not exceed 800º and cruises once it has settled down around 650-750º.

 

[Split]

Thanks it's good to read that I am not alone reaching these flue temps. I am becoming less in less concerned about breaking some part in the stove. No part of the stove ever glowed red even when the magnetic pipe thermometer reached 700f (just happened once). It's more the feeling of wasting heat that is putting me off. The wood is burning faster than necessary and too much heat escape outside. My hope is that if I can reduce the draft a little then the combustion will slow down. The fact that I am mostly burning birch this year is probably playing a role though. It tends to burn fast and hot.

I also burn a lot of birch. Probably 70%. Instead of completely plugging the boost air hole, I'm using the magnet from my old flue probe, which has a hole in the center. It calms down the draft and still allows for some air to be pulled through.

 

[flamontagne]

I also burn a lot of birch. Probably 70%. Instead of completely plugging the boost air hole, I'm using the magnet from my old flue probe, which has a hole in the center. It calms down the draft and still allows for some air to be pulled through.

Ok thanks for the tip, but in my case I chose to cover the boost air completely to reduce air as much as possible. I am guessing you also have a strong draft. Do you have a key damper installed on your flue pipe?

As I get to know this stove more and more, I am now able to prevent uncontrollable fires most of the time. I realize I was not letting the coals burn long enough before reloading. When I allow the coals to burn and shrink until they're almost ashes, things tend to stay under control. When we need the heat and can't afford to wait until the coals burn down, I simply reload with 2 or 3 logs max. I think this stove would be better if it had two different controls for adjusting air intake, one for primary and the other for secondary.

 

[Split]

Ok thanks for the tip, but in my case I chose to cover the boost air completely to reduce air as much as possible. I am guessing you also have a strong draft. Do you have a key damper installed on your flue pipe?

As I get to know this stove more and more, I am now able to prevent uncontrollable fires most of the time. I realize I was not letting the coals burn long enough before reloading. When I allow the coals to burn and shrink until they're almost ashes, things tend to stay under control. When we need the heat and can't afford to wait until the coals burn down, I simply reload with 2 or 3 logs max. I think this stove would be better if it had two different controls for adjusting air intake, one for primary and the other for secondary.

My dealer strictly advised against a key damper. Yes, my draft is very strong but I just gave to get used to high flue temps. I can cover the boost air hole if I wish. It does slow it down. I let my coals burn way down too.

 

[begreen]

Back east some dealers strictly advise against burning pine. They're wrong, but it would be hard to convince them otherwise.

OK, that's the flip answer. The dealer has concerns about misuse of the damper and the problems that can happen. Remember, the dealer is not in your house 24/7 watching how one runs the stove. Neither are we. There is a huge range of possibilities based on user operation or misoperation of the stove.

Manual dampers can cause problems: reducing the airflow through the stove can adversely affect the secondary burn immediately, and will almost certainly do so later on, as the fire burns down and the resulting cooler exhaust slows the chimney updraft. The price paid can be reduced efficiency, increased emissions, and excessive creosote formation in the flue.

 

[bholler]

My dealer strictly advised against a key damper. Yes, my draft is very strong but I just gave to get used to high flue temps. I can cover the boost air hole if I wish. It does slow it down. I let my coals burn way down too.

Your dealer advised against it because technically the stoves are required to be installed as tested which is without a damper. But they also need to be installed within the specified draft range which you are obviously over. So to me you have a choice of violating the rule in one way and having your stove work properly. Or violate it in a different way and have the stove running to hot leading to wasted wood short burn times and possible damage to the stove

 

[flamontagne]

Probably the best article I read on the subject is this one: http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm. It explains the problem of overdrafting/overfiring which sometimes happen with non-cat stoves. Also offers 4 solutions, 2 of them having been discussed in great details in this thread and others.

My dealer also strictly advised against a key damper but he didn't do a very good job of explaining W-H-Y. The only thing he said is that he was not authorized to install one and that "having a strong draft is good". This is frustrating, because it feels like he doesn't want to acknowledge that there might be a problem. I might end up installing a key damper regardless of his advice against it.

That being said, I found ways to reduce the odds of an uncontrollable fire. Begreen and others suggestion to rake the coals to the front of the firebox and let them burn down as much as possible before reloading turned out to be very helpful. Heavy reloading on a hot bed of coals was causing a nuclear second combustion every single time. Covering the boost air port with a magnet also helped a little. I also found out that sprinkling some ashes between the logs helps restricting air flow in the firebox and keep things under control.

 

[Split]

Your dealer advised against it because technically the stoves are required to be installed as tested which is without a damper. But they also need to be installed within the specified draft range which you are obviously over. So to me you have a choice of violating the rule in one way and having your stove work properly. Or violate it in a different way and have the stove running to hot leading to wasted wood short burn times and possible damage to the stove

Yup its a bit strange. They said the key damper just leads to creosote. They also said my stove is burning fine. I might get a second opinion at another dealer. It can be frustrating talking to my dealer so I let it go.

 

[bholler]

Yup its a bit strange. They said the key damper just leads to creosote. They also said my stove is burning fine. I might get a second opinion at another dealer. It can be frustrating talking to my dealer so I let it go.

Go to a sweep instead of a dealer.

 

[brenndatomu]

They said the key damper just leads to creosote

If you need one, and use it correctly, while burning dry wood, you'll not have creosote issues.

 

[Itslay90]

600 to 700 really isn't to hot. It's getting to the top end but definitely not over

So is 800 really hot ?

 

[bholler]

So is 800 really hot ?

That's about the top limit yes

 

[Itslay90]

That's about the top limit yes

So what would you say I should stay at. 700-750?