Struggling on what to do with new construction...please help,

[begreen]

Doesn't sound like they were testing with EPA II units.

 

[Ashful]

I suspect they were testing all the latest and greatest, ca. December, 2000, when the report was written.They mention a Quadrafire 2100, as their EPA non-cat stove.

 

[begreen]

I noticed that. But the complete lack of info about the ZC leads me to think they were testing a generic model. Could be wrong though.

 

[smokedragon]

Hello,
.....
So after looking at options, it seems some people 1) fit the biggest insert they can inside of the ZC or 2) tear out and start over.

My question is, what options do I have?.....

Rob, welcome to the forum.

It sounds to me like your ZC fireplace has already been built and the unit just needs to be installed (since you mention ripping it out and starting over).

If that is the case, there are some wood stove inserts that are zero clearance. They will heat as well as a wood stove insert (much better than most any fireplace).

Buck wood stoves makes a model 80ZC (catalytic) and Model 74ZC (non catalytic). These are their wood stoves, but modified with shielding to be able to sit against combustible surfaces. Both of these should be able to do a good job of heating <1900 sqft new construction like yours.

There are other ZC models on the market, but these are the ones that come to mind as true heaters.

If you like these, you would have to then decide whether you are interested in catalytic or non catalytic.

If you like the look of an insert, with your square footage there are plenty to choose from. But if you already have a ZC space built, it probably isn't worth tearing out if you could be happy with a ZC woodburning insert.

I would select an insert in your situation just so that you aren't losing as much floor space to the heater. If you don't mind losing the floor space to the heater, then go free standing.

If it is possible to go with insert/free standing at this point in your construction, your choices increase by a magnitude of 100's.

My $0.02

 

[begreen]

These units are not really inserts, they are zero clearance fireplaces.

 

[smokedragon]

These units are not really inserts, they are zero clearance fireplaces.

But they are modified versions of Bucks inserts.

If he already has a ZC fireplace, these would save him from tearing out (which is what I read in his original post).

Now if he hasn't built, then by all means, go with a REAL insert or freestanding stove.

 

[Grisu]

To not confuse the OP even more: If he is in the planning/building phase of his new home he has essentially two options:

a) Install a zero clearance fireplace if the look of a fireplace is desired. Preferably an EPA-approved (efficiency > 70%) one if it is also supposed to heat and not just for ambiance.
b) Install a freestanding woodstove.

For an insert, he would need to build first a masonry fireplace and then put an insert in. That just does not make any sense cost-wise. If he would have that much money to spend I would look into a masonry heater instead of a stove or ZC fireplace. http://www.mha-net.org/

 

[smokedragon]

To not confuse the OP even more: If he is in the planning/building phase of his new home he has essentially two options:

a) Install a zero clearance fireplace if the look of a fireplace is desired. Preferably an EPA-approved (efficiency > 70%) one if it is also supposed to heat and not just for ambiance.
b) Install a freestanding woodstove.

For an insert, he would need to build first a masonry fireplace and then put an insert in. That just does not make any sense cost-wise. If he would have that much money to spend I would look into a masonry heater instead of a stove or ZC fireplace. http://www.mha-net.org/

Actually, now that I think about it, you are exactly right. If he has nothing built yet, an insert would be too expensive.

But if he already has a non EPA ZC fireplace (for ambiance), a ZC insert might be a good choice.

Clear as mud right

 

[Simonkenton]

The original post is a little confusing, but he said "construction has not begun." I think he means that the house does not exist, and that, in theory, if he built a fireplace that did not work well, he could tear it down.

I think he would be happiest with a free standing wood stove.

 

[DickRussell]

Maybe the OP has been asking the wrong question. For new construction in MI, he ought to be thinking about how to build his superinsulated shell before thinking about the woodstove to heat it when he's in a mood for a wood fire. Build the superinsulated shell first (or plan on that first), then think about the smallest woodstove you can find that has provision for a direct OAK connection. Put your first money into that tight, superinsulated shell, then any heating system for it will be small, whatever it is. The woodstove will be small, and you get to have a nice warm, visible wood fire on most cold winter nights. Yah, I know, I'm soapboaxing here, but it's the truth for new construction in a cold climate.

 

[Rbrennan26]

Ok, sorry I confused some. House is not built yet but will start in April. I'm leaning towards a high efficient EPA certified ZC unit. The base ZC fireplace was not efficient and I don't want that installed only to have to modify things to have an insert installed. Just want to do it right the first time.

House will have R38 ceilings and R19 walls, which I guess is about average? I won't be heating full time with wood but would like to offset as much of the natural gas bill as I can. Basically I want to burn wood as I haven't had a fireplace in 15 years and as a kid growing up my house had 2 fireplaces and I grew up tending to them and I enjoy it.

Thanks

 

[begreen]

There are some very nice EPA fireplaces on the market. An added advantage is that many allow you to duct heat to another part of the house for more even heat distribution.

 

[Grisu]

When do you want to move in and use the fireplace? If it is for the coming winter you need to get your wood now. If there is room you could maybe stack it already at the building site in some sunny and windy spot. Any EPA-certified stove or fireplace will need seasoned wood with a moisture content of less than 20% to work properly and burn safely. That will be a major difference to the fireplaces your family had.

 

[Rbrennan26]

Yeah, I'm already working on the wood for next year. We are suppose to move in mid Oct., so just in time for the burning season. Never too early to cut and split wood. My next purchase will be a moisture meter so I can check the wood I have and monitor the wood I will have.

 

[jillybeansisme]

Since you have not begun building yet, I seriously would rethink any fireplace and go with a wood stove. There are many that can be used with the door open that come with the screen. Meanwhile, you could still tend the fire, roast marshmellows, and yet close the door and go to bed. My house construction won't start for probably 2 months and after reading many many hours of this website and Chimneysweeponline.com and talking with many people, I've decided on a Pacific Energy Super 27. I would tell the builder just skip the fireplace altogether, and upgrade your insulation. Then, right after you move in, get the woodstove. You'll save the builder's markup and the aggravation of having to meld what you really want with what they gave you that you have to rip out and partially/fully replace.

 

[jeff_t]

How long do you intend on being in this home? Most home buyers around here love the idea of the romance of a fireplace, but can't embrace the practical function of a wood burning stove. They see it as an inconvenience they have to get rid of. Not a lot of serious wood burners in this neighborhood. Food for thought.

Big George's in Ann Arbor sells Napoleon fireplaces, and there is a place in Chelsea that sells RSF and Pacific Energy.
(broken link removed)
They don't show this on their website, but PE has a ZC fireplace based on the Summit firebox.
http://www.pacificenergy.net/products/wood/fireplaces/fp30
I've never dealt with either of them, so you're on your own there.

Whereabouts are you building? I live down the road in Milan, and know the area "pretty well".

 

[Rbrennan26]

In saline...harwood farms is the sub which is right off of mich ave between platt and state st.

Plan to be in the house at least until my girls are out of school so at least 15 years. I know most in the area would want a gas fp but I'll deal with that down the road because I enjoy the "inconvienence" of burning wood.

 

[billb3]

I can speak to the matter of the Rumford fireplace, as I have one in my house. I built it. Yes the Rumford style fireplace is a great heater, for a fireplace.
In order for you to maximize heat output from your Rumford, you need to build it entirely of masonry, and build it entirely within the house.
In my house, the back wall of the fireplace is 7 feet inside the house, and it is the inside wall of the bathroom. It sure makes a pretty bathroom wall.

I live in the NC mountains and it does get cold up here, very windy in the winter. In any weather, the fireplace will easily heat my 16 x 22 foot living room, and most of the rest of the 1,200 square foot, 2 story house, while the fire is burning.
We had planned to have the sofa 8 feet from the fireplace, had to move it back to 11 feet, that thing really throws the heat!
Very important to have an exterior air intake. On a thirty degree night, if I burn my fireplace for 5 hours, the heat will begin to come out of the back wall and into the bathroom. Let us say, the fire goes out at midnight. By 2 am the coals are dead and I close the damper.
Of course, massive heat is being put out all night by the firebox, but the next morning, that rock bathroom wall, the back wall of the fireplace 105 degrees. That doesn't sound very hot, but you have 5 tons of masonry that is 105 or hotter, of course, the firebox is well above that the next morning.

On that 30 degree day, the fireplace will heat the entire house to 65 degrees until the afternoon, with no additional fire having been built.
So that, I can burn my Rumford for 5 hours every evening and heat the house with it around the clock, with a low of 30 degrees.

I have had my fireplace for 17 years and I also have a wood stove. As good as my fireplace is, it still burns 5 times as much wood as the wood stove.View attachment 129499

The house I grew up in and a home of my own both had large thermal mass masonry heaters tht did wonderful jobs of heating the whole house. Both had ash pits under , air feeds and glass fronts. Both were a joy to use and kept the house quite warm.

 

[elmoleaf]

The R values the OP quotes are building code = minimum standard. DickR is right on. At a minimum, the OP would do well to ask his builder some pointed questions now: how does he seal the sill plate? Does he seal the bottom plate on the second floor and if so, how? Does he conduct a blower door test before interior is finished to check integrity of air-sealing? Etc. etc. etc. Read up at building science.com Getting these little details right during construction can make a significant difference in both your comfort and heating bill. If you have an architect involved, ask him/her the same questions.

 

[Rbrennan26]

So it looks like it is narrowed down to zero clearance models Napoleon NZ-26 or Lennox Brentwood.

I'll look for other posts on these 2 models to see if one has any a distinct advantage over another.

I'll also be asking about insulation upgrades to R49 in the attic.

 

[Ashful]

There are folks in the Green Room who really know insulation.

Paging woodgeek...

 

[Grisu]

So it looks like it is narrowed down to zero clearance models Napoleon NZ-26 or Lennox Brentwood.

The Napoleon has a firebox of 1.7 cu ft while the Brentwood has 2.0 cu ft. Given the size of your home both will be undersized if you ever want to heat primarily with wood. The Napoleon will also struggle to maintain an overnight burn; the Brentwood may just be big enough. Given how difficult it will be to replace a ZC fireplace if it is found to be too small I would highly recommend to look for something larger. A firebox of 2.5 cu ft or above would be my suggestion. You can always make smaller fires in a large stove but not vice versa.

I'll look for other posts on these 2 models to see if one has any a distinct advantage over another.

Good idea. You can also open a new thread with those models in the title to possibly attract the attention of members who have those.

 

[Rbrennan26]

So I've been humbled today and not really sure how to proceed or if this is about what I should have been expecting.

So the builder came back and said it was going to be $4500 more for the Brentwood ZC versus the standard lennox superior BR42 ($3400 option including chase construction, etc). I was definitely expecting an increase but not really expecting to pay almost $8,000 for a fireplace that I won't be using as a primary heat source.

What do you guys think? I could afford the Brentwood but as with anyone building a new house, we are already higher than we had planned for, so another almost $5000 is a little tougher to swallow.

What if I try the lennox superior for a few burning seasons to make sure this is what I want, then go the route of buying a insert to put inside of the ZC superior unit? Like a mid size Napoleon...how much is that going to run me down the road for the unit, pipe, etc.?

 

[RickBlaine]

I am new here but it seems since nothing is built yet, get a nice stove with "inside" piping (no exterior brick chimney/"heat sink"). It is flexible enough that you can change/update on the fly and cheap enough to build that you could probably do the whole thing for 1/4 the price you are getting quoted to upgrade ZC fireplaces.

My home is from 1957 and has an outside brick chimney. What I learned on Hearth.com is that it would have been better to buy a house w/o an outside brick chimney (lovingly called a "heat sink" by many members here) and just run stove pipe and Class A chimney liner to outside.

You are in a wonderful position in that you can benefit from the many wise members here (and from guys like me ) and design a wood burner to be central to the house, a short distance to bring in firewood, and in an area to be a conversation starter.

If I were to build a new house, it would be so well insulated it would make the newspapers. My buddy down the street from me has a ten year old home built with all the latest insulation. His heating and cooling bills are 1/5 what mine are! Very quiet too.

 

[bholler]

$4500 sound like a big increase. Did you ask him to breakdown why it would increase that much? I don't know the price of either unit but I would have expected an increase of around $1500-$2000. I would have the install stove and chimney priced out from someone else and just have the builder do the chase.