Call to Maine Energy and they are sure it is a draft problem and recommending the draft inducer.
So hopefully this works.
So hopefully this works.
Strong Smoke Odor after Okofen installation
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maple1
Minister of Fire
But what did they say about that fan & smoke coming out of it? What is the fan for? Is the fan running when smoke comes out?
As I said I know nothing about this unit - but I'm thinking that if a boiler has a fan, it should be running when it's burning. And if it's running, it shouldn't be blowing smoke out. Just sounds way odd to me.
As I said I know nothing about this unit - but I'm thinking that if a boiler has a fan, it should be running when it's burning. And if it's running, it shouldn't be blowing smoke out. Just sounds way odd to me.
Good video about draft and combustion for all appliance, not just boilers.
I'd like to clarify something I said..... my recommendation to test with windows open and closed is just for reference. Your boiler, or any appliance should always be tested under actual operating conditions. You don't have your windows open in the winter so your boiler should be set up to run accordingly.
I'd like to clarify something I said..... my recommendation to test with windows open and closed is just for reference. Your boiler, or any appliance should always be tested under actual operating conditions. You don't have your windows open in the winter so your boiler should be set up to run accordingly.
Not really the same but my Tarm does funny things when the boiler it's self is cold (room temp or lower).
When I start a fire I tend to get a few whips of smoke from any little pin hole (stack pipe) and if I don't close the door all the way smoke will get out there too. Once the flue warms for a bit it's no longer a problem. Warmer temps outside also compound the issue. In the dead of winter with two fires a day I have zero problems.
K
When I start a fire I tend to get a few whips of smoke from any little pin hole (stack pipe) and if I don't close the door all the way smoke will get out there too. Once the flue warms for a bit it's no longer a problem. Warmer temps outside also compound the issue. In the dead of winter with two fires a day I have zero problems.
K
My old Tasso has down drafting issues when cold. I find if I open a basement window for a few minutes, it will reverse the draft and do not fill the basement with smoke. I have a 2 story exterior masonry clay lined chimney FWIW.
Sounds like you have a chimney that is getting cold as evidenced by the fact that everything is working correctly when the chimney produces the correct draft.
Let’s get back to basics (physics). When the temperature inside a chimney is the same as that outside of it, there is little or no draft! And if the temperature inside a chimney should become lower than the temperature outside of it, the chimney will create a downdraft or POSITIVE pressure at the appliance flue collar, period. During this time when there is a positive pressure, you are going to smell your chimney. When you re-ignite your appliance, this pressure situation will then require enough heated air introduced into the chimney to raise the temperature within the chimney until it is again warmer than the surrounding air and then you will again have a negative pressure at the flue collar of the appliance. Don’t shoot the messenger here, it’s just plain physics. And as this process is being reversed, depending on how well you seal up the cracks in the flue pipe, there will be some odor. Or you could install some sort of draft assistance to run just long enough for the boiler to warm the chimney, getting you to that point where you have all seen it working correctly.
After burning cord wood for 30+ years and switching to pellets, I have had a renaissance myself. The remarkably low flue gas temperatures of modern, high efficiency pellet boilers, especially the Okofen like yours, are simply not going to heat a chimney to the same temperature that other lower efficiency appliances will. Comparing your installers experience with other brands leaves out this important piece of the equation.
I feel for you, as the inside of a chimney does not smell as nice as a crackling fireplace! Just to make you feel better, we did have to tape our joints also and we have an inside masonry chimney that stays warmer longer which helps. Get in touch with someone that really understands chimneys experientially, like some old guy
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Let’s get back to basics (physics). When the temperature inside a chimney is the same as that outside of it, there is little or no draft! And if the temperature inside a chimney should become lower than the temperature outside of it, the chimney will create a downdraft or POSITIVE pressure at the appliance flue collar, period. During this time when there is a positive pressure, you are going to smell your chimney. When you re-ignite your appliance, this pressure situation will then require enough heated air introduced into the chimney to raise the temperature within the chimney until it is again warmer than the surrounding air and then you will again have a negative pressure at the flue collar of the appliance. Don’t shoot the messenger here, it’s just plain physics. And as this process is being reversed, depending on how well you seal up the cracks in the flue pipe, there will be some odor. Or you could install some sort of draft assistance to run just long enough for the boiler to warm the chimney, getting you to that point where you have all seen it working correctly.
After burning cord wood for 30+ years and switching to pellets, I have had a renaissance myself. The remarkably low flue gas temperatures of modern, high efficiency pellet boilers, especially the Okofen like yours, are simply not going to heat a chimney to the same temperature that other lower efficiency appliances will. Comparing your installers experience with other brands leaves out this important piece of the equation.
I feel for you, as the inside of a chimney does not smell as nice as a crackling fireplace! Just to make you feel better, we did have to tape our joints also and we have an inside masonry chimney that stays warmer longer which helps. Get in touch with someone that really understands chimneys experientially, like some old guy
-}).Update: we continue with same smoke problems. Maine Energy Is convinced we have a draft problem so we had a chimney expert come out and look at system and he said we do not have a drafting problem, chimney is good, no problems with trees. He recommended running Okofen boiler in Winter mode instead of summer mode, because temps at night are in 40's, and he thought we are getting so many cold starts maybe causing drafting problem. He suggested doing this for week and keep log. So we started this yesterday morning and by 5pm had to open basement windows again due to powerful smoke smell in basement. My eyes and throat burn, and clothes and hair all have smoke smell if in basement for just minutes. It is not just a faint odor.
I still smell smoke coming from the back of unit to the right of the fan. There is insulation where smoke smell is so can't see smoke appearance with LED light. Will get installer back to open back of boiler and see if there is any loose fittings.
I still smell smoke coming from the back of unit to the right of the fan. There is insulation where smoke smell is so can't see smoke appearance with LED light. Will get installer back to open back of boiler and see if there is any loose fittings.
Installer has rescheduled building inspector and fire inspector for next week, but I am not sure if we should postpone again if the boiler isn't really working right. We need this inspection to qualify for the NH rebate.
what good is the rebate if the appliance is faulty, removing the skin where you smell smoke by the fan is a start. I would ask maine energy at this meeting if a problem is not fixed to swap out another boiler and observe for a week. If the problem persists you get your boiler back and persue a different flue vent option, if it does not happen with the new boiler, there is your answer. I would think in front of the fire marshal, they will do whatever it takes on there end. This is a safety issue at this point.
5/27/14 Update: Running Okofen Boiler in Winter Mode since 5/23/14. Try to insulate the boiler room better and close all windows and doors, in case smoke smell was bad and prevent it creeping in to main living areas upstairs. Previous 2 days mixture of rain and sun with high and low pressures for weather. Absolutely no smoke smell! We were ecstatic!. Building inspector and Fire Chief came out around 1 pm to inspect boiler and install. I told them this inspection was rescheduled due to very strong smoke smell in basement when boiler was running. Explained chimney looked at and no draft problems. Explained since running in Winter mode for past 2 days no smell. They were not happy we had this problem and instructed installer to make sure this problem was fixed. Drafting measurements taken today all good. No sign off on project until Installer adds a sprinkler over the boiler. Installer also added today a part which was on order a $200 Barometric? drafting vent which looks just like the last one we removed because it leaked smoke. So at 5PM go downstairs and basement full of smoke smell coming from the new drafting vent and the same place at the back of the boiler where it is insulated next to the fan. So I cover it up with tin foil, call the installer again left him a message got the smoke smell back again. Do we need this flapping draft vent? We have paid this installer alot of money to install this boiler, and I can tell he is losing interest in fixing this problem. Our problem is taking time away from his other jobs. But we dont have a working boiler yet!
Not sure if we need to press Maine Energy engineers to come down again or find a new installer. Can we press for money back on the job since it is not working right?
Not sure if we need to press Maine Energy engineers to come down again or find a new installer. Can we press for money back on the job since it is not working right?
IANAL, I am not a lawyer, but to have a valid claim for damages you might need to show negligence or fraud (or a code violation causing the damages). And having a valid legal doctrine and having something enforced and collected on are two different things. What's been posted so far indicates to me the vendors have been diligent about responding to your problem and attempting to mitigate. Other than that, your contract language would prevail and coverage for smoke damage may not specifically be in there. If the install meets code, smoke damage claims may go to the house insurer.
At the time that you see it making smoke, I am assuming the boiler is "off". For it to smoke, there has to be remaining unburned fuel in the burn chambers and smoldering in sufficient quantity to produce smoke in excess of what the natural draft can remove. Where I would start is trying to diagnose the actual cause and once that is known, what repairs and damages claims may be indicated or not.
At the time it is smoking, is there still a natural draft at the chimney or has the draft reversed for any reason. Draft requires a fresh makeup air supply and if the house is too tight, the chimney can compete or be starved for makeup air by, for example, exhaust fans running at the same time. Do you have fresh combustion air always available.
The smoke, is it thick enough to see escaping and burn your eyes or is it only enough to detect by smelling. There should be a nearby smoke detector and is the smoke strong enough to trip the smoke detector.
If there is unburned fuel in the burn chamber when the boiler goes off, I would want to know if this is so and why. To me this would indicate either boiler setup or fuel quality.
Is boiler return protection required, installed, and working? Is the boiler maintained above the condensing temperature.
At the time that you see it making smoke, I am assuming the boiler is "off". For it to smoke, there has to be remaining unburned fuel in the burn chambers and smoldering in sufficient quantity to produce smoke in excess of what the natural draft can remove. Where I would start is trying to diagnose the actual cause and once that is known, what repairs and damages claims may be indicated or not.
At the time it is smoking, is there still a natural draft at the chimney or has the draft reversed for any reason. Draft requires a fresh makeup air supply and if the house is too tight, the chimney can compete or be starved for makeup air by, for example, exhaust fans running at the same time. Do you have fresh combustion air always available.
The smoke, is it thick enough to see escaping and burn your eyes or is it only enough to detect by smelling. There should be a nearby smoke detector and is the smoke strong enough to trip the smoke detector.
If there is unburned fuel in the burn chamber when the boiler goes off, I would want to know if this is so and why. To me this would indicate either boiler setup or fuel quality.
Is boiler return protection required, installed, and working? Is the boiler maintained above the condensing temperature.
maple1
Minister of Fire
Seems to me a barometric damper would make things worse. Why was it installed if draft readings were supposedly good? Baros are used to limit or reduce draft at the appliance.
I will be installing a pellet boiler, a BioWin, in my basement with a similar setup as far as the house goes. When the oil is off with just the wood insert on, there is a faint odor of smoke from downdraft down the oil flue from the insert's flue. An automatic damper on the oil boiler helps some, I think, but dampers, aren't air tight and who knows, there is probably another exit path through the burner air intake or something. As part of the pellet boiler project, I've changed the termination heights of the three flues, so maybe that will help too.
I feel that negative pressure in the basement is just a natural thing that has to be overcome. I've never had a problem with the oil boiler as far as smoke or odor or CO, coming through its barometric damper, and am hoping that I too won't experience excessive smokiness with the pellet boiler. The pellet boiler might cool off periodically since I'll still be using the wood insert, so hopefully, negative draft won't be an issue.
As I noted, is there no such thing as a barometric damper with a real good seal, in case of positive pressure, even if only transitory, in the smoke pipe? It seems the joints are siliconed and taped, but there's still that flap that can let out the smoke.
I wonder if the location of the barometric damper could be a factor? Maybe pictures would help? I noticed that the Froling P4 manual seems to want it in a Tee in the flue below the smoke pipe, see excerpt below:
"The optimum position for the installation of the barometric damper (1) is in the chimney directly below the flue gas connection. If the chimney is a manufactured chimney, a tee can be use at chimney connection and the barometric damper can be mounted below the tee.
Installation of the barometric damper in the flue gas pipe is not recommended because dust and flue gases may escape into the boiler room."
I feel that negative pressure in the basement is just a natural thing that has to be overcome. I've never had a problem with the oil boiler as far as smoke or odor or CO, coming through its barometric damper, and am hoping that I too won't experience excessive smokiness with the pellet boiler. The pellet boiler might cool off periodically since I'll still be using the wood insert, so hopefully, negative draft won't be an issue.
As I noted, is there no such thing as a barometric damper with a real good seal, in case of positive pressure, even if only transitory, in the smoke pipe? It seems the joints are siliconed and taped, but there's still that flap that can let out the smoke.
I wonder if the location of the barometric damper could be a factor? Maybe pictures would help? I noticed that the Froling P4 manual seems to want it in a Tee in the flue below the smoke pipe, see excerpt below:
"The optimum position for the installation of the barometric damper (1) is in the chimney directly below the flue gas connection. If the chimney is a manufactured chimney, a tee can be use at chimney connection and the barometric damper can be mounted below the tee.
Installation of the barometric damper in the flue gas pipe is not recommended because dust and flue gases may escape into the boiler room."
maple1
Minister of Fire
If I've read all this right, this smoke issue was an issue even when there was no barometric damper installed.
This should be a fixable issue.
This should be a fixable issue.
maple1
Minister of Fire
Well - maybe so. I was reading as it was added - but maybe it was a replacement.
If it were me, I would buy a Dwyer manometer & hook it up & keep it hooked up and watch the draft readings over a period of time under all conditions. I'm also still leery of that fan opening having smoke come out though - that still doesn't sound right even if there were insufficient draft.
If it were me, I would buy a Dwyer manometer & hook it up & keep it hooked up and watch the draft readings over a period of time under all conditions. I'm also still leery of that fan opening having smoke come out though - that still doesn't sound right even if there were insufficient draft.
Technically speaking the barometric is not a damper. It is a regulator which is designed to keep draft at a certain level in the flue regardless of outside conditions which can create high or low draft situations. It has to be in there just like it did on natural draft gas and oil fired equipment.
Maple has a good suggestion in connecting a manometer and watching it when you have the smoke situation occurring. You can fashion a simple water tube manometer from a piece of 1/4" I.D.clear plastic tubing.
Drill a hole in your vent pipe below the barometric.
Get a piece of 1/4" O.D. tubing...copper. aluminum...whatever and insert it into one end of the plastic tube. Let the tube form a U shape and fill it halfway up with water.
Stick the metal tube in the chimney and observe, first with no fire and a cold chimney, then light up the boiler and see what happens. Observe it with all the windows in the house shut and all other appliances turned on. IE: dryer, any exhaust fans, water heater (if gas or oil fired)
The water will balance equally on each leg of the U and change when no draft is present. When you have good negative pressure in the flue the water column will move upward in the leg that is connected to the flue pipe. When you have positive pressure in the flue it will move upward in the leg open to the house atmosphere.
If you have negative flue pressure and you are still getting smoke that would be a good indication of a problem lying elsewhere in the boiler/burner.
I wouldn't be to hard on the installer or threaten legal action. Just let him know that you expect him or the boiler sales people to get this corrected permanently.
Draft issues can be the devil to figure out because they can occur so intermittently.
I don't know sheet about anything, but on the surface it seems like a combustion air problem. It doesn't happen when the windows are open............ why does the air intake do into a barrel outside ??? OP thinks to create a draft ??? and seems THAT draft is only happening when it runs a while.
I'd play with the air intake if it were me.....
I'd play with the air intake if it were me.....
Looking at an old hearth.com thread, I found this link for a gas tight damper. Not sure if it's sold here, but they do exist:
(broken link removed to http://www.spx.com/en/tigerholm/pd-mp-draught-stabiliser-tigex50/)
(broken link removed to http://www.spx.com/en/tigerholm/pd-mp-draught-stabiliser-tigex50/)
This makes no sense. I am not aware of a sprinkler requirement for single family residences. Sprinkler might be required for a different occupancy class like a group home or residential care facility but I've never heard of that for a one family house.
Other than this from the website, (broken link removed) , there's very little detail on the unit to look at. It looks like a fan forced draft unit, which means pressurization of the combustion chamber and flue. Being a new unit and assuming it was installed according the the factory instructions, I would be looking to the factory or the dealer for support. It could be something as simple as a missing gasket, poor sealing, in the flue gas path.
I would also want to look at the shutdown cycle, how it burns and purges remaining fuel at cycle shutdown.
If it has cleaning doors and door gaskets, those will have to seal very well if the other side is operated at a positive pressure by the forced draft fan.
Since it's new, I would look at typical setup problems.
There are a lot of municipalities in NE going towards sprinkler systems for new construction ~ this is probably a local code requirement.
I don't know if it's code or not but all professional installations here have a sprinkler head over the burner. I have one above my oil boiler.
"fan forced draft unit, which means pressurization of the combustion chamber and flue."
Exactly. Draft is critical in all types of boilers stoves and whatever but especially so when dealing with positive pressure in the boiler itself.
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