Stove selection and location

[illini81]

Yes, I'm with you on the 16" needing to be measured from the front of the unit. I have about 18" from the front of the fireplace right now, so I'll definitely need to add something, since the unit sticks out something like 7".

There's a different clearance requirement that I missed the first time through the manual which might cause me some trouble. I found this site: (broken link removed) which states that the min distance from the CL of the fireplace opening to combustible side trim is 28 7/16”. I think they get there by taking the 40 7/8” dimension on pg 6, dividing it by two, and adding it to the minimum distance to side facing (8”), that is provided on page 3 of the manual (in the table and the figure). My minimum distance to side facing would be about 23.5” (33”/2 + 7”). So my questions are:

1. In the table on pg. 3, it says “1.5 in extension”. Does that mean that the 8" requirement only applies to side trim that extends 1.5" or more from the wall? If that is the case, I’m ok.
   
   
2. If I am not ok… is there shielding I can buy for my side trim?

Thanks for the info on the different models. I just asked the seller, and he told me he thinks it’s Series B. I asked him to check the serial number so I can know for sure. He’s getting back to me.

 

[begreen]

Even it it's an A model that is a great deal as long as the insert has not been pushed hard.

The side clearance is 8.5" from the insert body, but the firebox is shielded by the side angle pieces where the fans are located so the insert is not strongly radiant there. And your mantel side pieces look shallow, like <1", is that correct? If so, this may not be an issue. Otherwise you might need to get some sheet metal pieces bent up and paint them to act as heat shields.

 

[beatlefan]

I love posts like this. It's fun to follow someone through the process of adding wood heat, from start to finish. It sounds like you are very focused on doing your research and doing it right. I highly recommend you visit http://woodheat.org/

I spent hours upon hours there as I was beginning the process you are in right now. It has tons of great reading on subjects such as chimneys, stoves, locations, starting fires, draft, firewood, etc., etc. In fact, it's the site that led me to this forum.

Check it out and let us know what you think.

 

[illini81]

beatlefan, thanks for the encouragement! I have spent a little time on woodheat.org. It seems like there is quite a bit of information there that is very thoroughly presented. I will definitely spend some more time there.

begreen, the mantle pieces are about 7/8" thick, but are slightly offset from the brick surface because the brick is uneven. However, the outer surface of the mantle is certainly less than 1.5" from the brick, so less than the 1.5" offset mentioned in the manual.

I am mainly interested in making sure I don't run into some issue that's a non-starter, and so I buy this stove and then find out it's not going to work for my fireplace. Solutions like painted sheet metal as a shield wouldn't be a big deal.

I've attached a picture of the unit I am buying. Maybe someone can tell from the picture what Series it is? I've done a little searching to see if I could find out how to tell the difference, but I haven't found anything.

 

[begreen]

Looks like a Summit A to me, based on the ashlip. Hogwildz would know for sure.

 

[kennyp2339]

My best friend has a colonial very similar to yours, minus the sun room, built in 2001, 2x6 cons. installed a NC30 in spot 3 of your floor plan map.
Like others alluded, he has issues with the 1st floor getting to hot during days were the temps get into the 30's and 40's. The heat does flow throughout the house nicely, it does keep the upstairs between 64-68 fairly consistently. He does have an open stair case in the front of his house with a open hallway (railings) vaulted ceiling that give access to the 3 bedrooms.
I would consider a cat stove over epa reburn stove, Woodstock does make nice stoves, you want to be able to turn the stove down during the warmer winter days, but have enough fire power for when it gets colder.
If that's not satisfactory consider a wood furnace in the basement.

 

[illini81]

So I think the Summit might not work out if it's a Series A... I finally was able to find a manual for the Series A, and it looks like it requires a fireplace width at the front of 34". The Series B and C only require 28", and I have 33".

Series A manual: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/9...ummit-Wood-Insert-Design-A.html?page=4#manual

Series C manual: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/963324/Pacific-Energy-Summit-Insert.html?page=5#manual

I am now officially bummed out - I was pretty excited about this.

I'm still waiting on the seller to provide a serial number, but from comparing the picture I have to the pictures in the two manuals, it's pretty clear that it's a Series A.

 

[Hogwildz]

At an inch difference at the width of the opening of the exiting fireplace, depending on if you can get the liner down and onto the insert, you can simply slide the insert in as far as it will go, which will be very close to where it should be, then just make a new, deeper shroud set up, or make an extension for the back edges of the shroud assy.

The Summit will def heat the lower level, and depending on how good a convection flow you get upstairs, if any, may heat upstairs fine also.
It is definitely an A series.
There may be other avenues to go with the A series also. As in it has a separate casing around the back, sides & top. You may be able to work them, trim some so they are slightly narrower, to fit in the old opening. May have to trim a little off the edge of the side vent panels also.
Anything is doable if you take the time to figure it out, and have the patience and will to do it.

If the insert is in good shape, you won't find anything else comparable, and capable in that price range. Again, if in good condition, that is a steal of a price.

 

[Hogwildz]

Burn the Maple mixed with Oak in the shoulder seasons. Save mostly oak for winter, and you will only need to reload every 12 hours. Sometimes less if in single digits to below 0 and windy out. You may have to rethink your loading time for bedtime. Load sooner so it has just enough temp & coals to reload in the morning before work. Trial & error.

 

[illini81]

Thanks Hogwildz! You just made my day...week...year! It sounds like I could have a few options for making it work. The seller just sent me the label plate (pic attached). The serial number is 45802, and the date of manufacture is March of 2005.

Two things that are weird to me about the label plate - it says that the stove is a "Series D" (I didn't think there was a Series D for the Summit Insert?), and the clearances on the label plate don't seem to match what is in the Summit manual.

If anyone can provide some clarity, I would appreciate it! I was hoping to go get the stove tomorrow morning, but it's 2 hours away. So if the seller is confused about what stove he has (or is being intentionally misleading), I'd rather avoid making the trip for nothing.

Thanks for all of the help!

 

[begreen]

Definitely an earlier model. Manual calls it a Design A. Never heard of a series D. I don't think the owner is at fault here, the label is misleading.

 

[illini81]

Ok. I did just find this manual for a "Pacific Energy Insert Series D":

https://www.fire-parts.com/pages/ma...-series-d-pacific_insert_series_d_install-pdf

It seems to have clearances that match what is on the stove label plate. So is this stove not a summit? Or is it just an early version of a Summit Series A that for some reason was called a Series D (which makes no sense)?

 

[illini81]

Also, I just found the below thread which details weld cracking issues that were showing up in PE inserts several years ago. It looks like many of the issues were showing up in "Pacific Inserts" which are apparently different than "Summit Inserts", and which apparently this stove is (according to the label plate). That plus the year of the insert (during the time PE was having issues) makes me much less excited about this deal.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/pacific-energy-pacific-insert-cracks.92115/

 

[begreen]

It's been quite a while but I think the cracks showed up around 2007-2008? The issue showed up on a few units, but certainly not every one. Member Dix has an '08 Pacific and it has served her well. You could have the owner send you shots of the top two door opening corners. That is where the cracking showed. It is reweldable if found.

You caught the real error. This is not a Summit, it's a Pacific model, which is 2 cu ft. It preceded the current Super insert.

 

[illini81]

I’m going to pass on the stove, as I do want as stove with a 3 cu ft firebox. Thanks for helping me work through this.

As a side note – if anyone else is interested in the stove, it is in Boston. I had talked the guy down to $400, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he would go lower. He just wants to get rid of it. He’s a super nice guy, and felt pretty bad about the stove mix up. It was an honest mistake. It really does look identical to the Summit Insert Series A, it’s just smaller.

I’m really glad he sent me a pic of the label plate. I had just asked for the serial number and date of manufacture. If he would have just sent me those, I probably wouldn’t have caught the difference until I tried to install it in my fireplace and realized it was smaller than the Summit is supposed to be. Then I would have been really pissed/bummed.

So… taking a few steps back. Here is what I know:

1. I want a non-flush insert.

2. I want a 3 cu ft. firebox or more.

3. I’m not crazy about the looks of a lot of the non-flush inserts. My dream would be for PE to make a T6 insert, but I guess I have to order off the menu.

4. Inserts seem to be much less common on Craigslist, so I am most likely going to have to buy one from a dealer.​

Here are the 3 cu ft inserts I’ve found:

1. Pacific Energy Summit Insert

a. Price: 2875, I have to pick up (35 min away)
b. Firebox: 3.0 cu ft
c. Other – lots of satisfied owners on hearth.com​

2. Osburn 2400i

a. Price: $2389, and they ship it to my door free
b. Firebox: 3.4 cu ft
c. Overall: I like the large firebox, also seems to get good reviews, although there don’t seem to be as many Osburn owners as there are Summit owners.​

3. Regency I3100

a. Price: still trying to find price
b. Firebox: 2.9 cu ft
c. Overall: TBD…​

Any stoves I’m missing?

 

[begreen]

All of the inserts mentioned are good ones and Canadian made. The Osburn and Regency are similar in design, the Summit has a unique firebox and baffle design and EBT. I wouldn't fixate on the 3.0 cu ft requirement and would consider 2.5 cu ft units as well. Take a look at the Enviro Boston 1700 for example.

 

[Hogwildz]

Do yourself a favor, and extend the hearth to 20"-24". Makes it easy for cleaning the mess after loading, and adds extended ember protection.

 

[illini81]

Hogwildz, will do, thanks for the tip. Begreen, argghh… you’re throwing me for a loop. Just when I thought I had narrowed down my options, you’re opening things up.

Here’s my reasoning for the 3 cu ft requirement: I would love to have a stove that I can get 12 hour burns with. I’d like to be able to load the stove around 6 am before work and again at 6 pm when I get home. That way my wife won’t have to mess with the stove. I realize that on colder nights, I may not be able to get 12 hr burns, but I am thinking that a 3 cu ft stove is my best shot at relatively consistently getting a 12 hr burn.

I really like the looks of the Enviro Boston 1700, and it does claim 8-12 hour burns… but I’m guessing that 12 hour burns would be the exception rather than the rule? If anyone owns an Enviro Boston 1700 and wants to chime in, that would be great!

Begreen, what did you mean by saying the Summit has a unique firebox and baffle design?

 

[begreen]

I thought the good looks would be attractive to you. The Enviro Boston 1700 and the Enviro Kodiak 1700 have the same firebox. It is an excellent stove. I would expect 8-10hrs burns to be more the norm with it. The Summit can do 12 hrs on most days until it gets really cold. If you want longer consider a Blaze King Princess insert.

Most non-cat stoves have secondary tubes directly underneath a firebrick, c-cast ceramic or vermiculite baffle. The secondary air is wide open and unregulated. The Summit has a heavy duty stainless steel box for a baffle that has a lower chamber that acts as a secondary plenum. It also has a barometric regulator on the secondary air (EBT). The EBT cuts back secondary air as the fire goes into the coaling stage. This helps extend the burn time.
http://www.pacificenergy.net/technologies/wood/floating-firebox/
http://www.pacificenergy.net/technologies/wood/ebt2/

Does your wife want to learn how to operate the stove? I'm a strong advocate of everyone that is old enough to learn how to run the stove. My wife was running the T6 a week after it was installed and my son is great at helping me know when to turn the air down via the stack temperature.

 

[kennyp2339]

Those Enviro's are great looking.

 

[illini81]

Begreen, wow I had to read that second paragraph a few times. Very technical (at least for this newbie it was). I appreciate the details though. I also read the links.

Does the floating firebox just mean that there is space in-between the part of the stove that is in direct contact with flames, and the exterior? And so the part in contact with the flames can expand into that space when it heats up, which protects the main body of the stove from having to do that constant expansion and contraction? I think I understand the EBT concept. Secondary air is regulated on PE stoves, and not on most other non-cat stoves. It makes sense to me that this would extend burn times. However, isn’t this another system that can fail (just to play devils advocate)?

Yes, my wife will eventually become a full-fledged stove operator. However, I really want to make it as easy on her as possible at first, so it doesn’t turn into something she hates. We have a 16 month old, and she is 25 weeks pregnant, so loading a wood stove could easily become a chore she despises. At this point I’m the one with the stove bug, and she’s the one humoring me. She loves being warm, and the 3 years we just spent in a condo with electric heat and the thermostat set in the upper 50’s makes me pretty sure she’s going to love the wood stove, but I want to take every possible precaution. If the stove could be something where I am the one doing most of the work for the first year or two while I figure things out, that would be ideal.

Here’s a related question for you – I have seen people say several times that they get longer burn times in the shoulder season. For example, with the right wood, maybe I can routinely get 12 hour burns with the Enviro Boston 1700 (a Boston 1700 owner just sent me a message stating this) in the shoulder season. If I understand correctly, the reason I can’t get the same burn times when it is zero degrees outside as when it’s 40 is because my house is going to be losing heat at a faster rate, and so I have to run the stove harder to maintain the same 70 degree indoor temp. But theoretically I could still get the same 12 hour burn on a cold winter day, as long as I supplement with my electric heat, right? As long as I didn’t run the stove any different than I would during the shoulder season?

 

[begreen]

Yes, to all the above, though the failure of the EBT is unlikely, it is theoretically possible. FWIW, my wife runs the stove very differently than I. I load full loads for a 10-12 hr burn, she puts on just a few splits at a time and reloads more frequently. Both systems can work.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Most non-cat stoves have secondary tubes directly underneath a firebrick, c-cast ceramic or vermiculite baffle. The secondary air is wide open and unregulated. The Summit has a heavy duty stainless steel box for a baffle that has a lower chamber that acts as a secondary plenum. It also has a barometric regulator on the secondary air (EBT). The EBT cuts back secondary air as the fire goes into the coaling stage. This helps extend the burn time.
http://www.pacificenergy.net/technologies/wood/floating-firebox/
http://www.pacificenergy.net/technologies/wood/ebt2/

That's interesting.

I didn't know most non-cat EPA stoves have wide open secondary air. Seems like quite a compromise. The Seefire (early EPA woodstove) that I'm currently replacing regulated the secondary air in direct proportion to the primary air. In other words, the intake damper rod controlled the primary and secondary air simultaneously. Of course this is a compromise as well, both at the very beginning of the burn and nearing the end. I imagine the barometric damper on the secondary air would improve both phases.

 

[begreen]

Some PE and Enviro models have linked secondary air controls too. The EBT is only on the 3.0 cu ft PEs.

 

[NoGoodAtScreenNames]

Some Enviro models have been thrown out as choices for you. I have the Boston 1700 insert. Also have a larger house in the Northeast. It's on an exterior wall on the far side of the house.

I use it nights and weekends. I don't have a hard time running it 24/2 over the weekends. In the morning the stove top is hot to the touch but not instant skin burning. There's enough coals buried in the ash to start a new fire easy enough but a having some kindling or cheating with a fire starter makes it easier. I wouldn't say it's cranking out heat at that point. But the overnight burn does delay when my thermostat would kick in. The clinking from the baseboards wakes me up so this is one of the best outcomes for me.

It puts a good dent in my oil use. I don't think it could keep up with heating the whole house to 68 degrees. I don't think in terms of heating sq feet, I think of heating people. When we have the fire going everyone congregates in that room - it becomes the focus of the house. That lets me keep the thermostat even lower in the other parts of the house that are empty. I use fans and shut doors to control where the heat goes - usually trying to keep it downstairs and direct it upstairs at night. The coldest parts of the house are still comfortable in typical winter garb and the oil kicks on every now and then, but I stopped fretting over that. Overall I've been happy fwiw.