Stove prep

[bholler]

The 4th pic shows the 1.75" x 3" x 2 tube steel ports that feed air to the secondary burn tubes above the firebox. No user shut off provided whatsoever in the EPA satisfying design. Not safe or smart.
No misunderstanding or worries on my end , I fixed that.

How do you know it isn't safe or smart? Did you try it?

 

[snobuilder]

How do you know it isn't safe or smart? Did you try it?

Yes 4 fires. last one was an overfire. Closing my custom fabbed secondary air baffles brought it under control in a few minutes.

Baffles in closed position

 

[snobuilder]

But the secondary air (in a stove where the airflow has not been altered) won't go uncontrolled with a fixed secondary air inlet. It'll have an oxygen-rich gas mixture I.e. it runs LEAN!

The gas provided into this lean mixture is controlled by the primary air, i.e. you. You can easily further lean-out the gas mixture by squeezing the primary air.

So, if you have uncontrolled firenados, you have too much primary air, and something is wrong with your primary air control or you have a leak.

Your referring to a LEAN burn like it is a good thing.....If your internal combustion engine has a lean burn condition you will end up with a hole melted in the top of your pistons....Not good there either.
But as far as this stove is concerned the secondary air inlets that feed the gas burn above the fuel have (had) NO controls to the end user.
I fixed that.

BTW my 3rd pic shows the firenado already starting early on with just the kindling as fuel.

 

[bholler]

Yes 4 fires. last one was an overfire. Closing my custom fabbed secondary air baffles brought it under control in a few minutes.

Baffles in closed position
View attachment 289558

What temp did you consider an over fire and where was the temp?

 

[bholler]

Your referring to a LEAN burn like it is a good thing.....If your internal combustion engine has a lean burn condition you will end up with a hole melted in the top of your pistons....Not good there either.
But as far as this stove is concerned the secondary air inlets that feed the gas burn above the fuel have (had) NO controls to the end user.
I fixed that.

BTW my 3rd pic shows the firenado already starting early on with just the kindling as fuel.

The secondary air doesn't need a user control if the stove is set up properly.

 

[Trevor Tahclep]

The secondary air doesn't need a user control if the stove is set up properly.

Yep, fully agree !

 

[Todd]

The secondary air doesn't need a user control if the stove is set up properly.

I don’t know about that, there are times even with a properly set up stove where it would be nice to have a little more control. Some stoves do have auto secondary air control like Woodstock and Jotul. I can see how a manual secondary air control could be problematic for EPA testing.

 

[snobuilder]

The secondary air doesn't need a user control if the stove is set up properly.

. Where I live I notice changes depending on wind , temp, baro pressure, how close I am to needing a cleaning etc. No harm in what I did because its use is always optional.....thats all. Strange that it seems to upset and insight negativity for some on here if the EPA stoves are improved in any way and yes what I did is a great improvement in control and safety as well. Do it to your stove, don't do it....Doesn't matter to me just thought I'd share it with fellow wood fuel guys.

 

[bholler]

. Where I live I notice changes depending on wind , temp, baro pressure, how close I am to needing a cleaning etc. No harm in what I did because its use is always optional.....thats all. Strange that it seems to upset and insight negativity for some on here if the EPA stoves are improved in any way and yes what I did is a great improvement in control and safety as well. Do it to your stove, don't do it....Doesn't matter to me just thought I'd share it with fellow wood fuel guys.

The problem is what you did made the stove listings clearances etc legally invalid. That means if something ever happens involving that stove all liability falls directly on you. I am actually all for being able to adjust stoves to match varying draft conditions. But I am not willing to take all liability off of the stove manufacturer and put it on myself.

Btw I have far less problem with your air adjustment modification (although I don't think it's nessecary) than I do with the huge hole you cut in the bottom of your stove. That to me is a huge potential for very dangerous malfunction.


Btw you have no way to know if what you did is an improvement or not. You have no baseline of the unmodified stove as reference. And don't even have the stove hooked up to a real chimney yet.

 

[bholler]

I am still curious what your over fire temps were and where they were measured

 

[bholler]

I'm burning outside and it is really cold...0.... here so temps won't tell much.
Once installed I will see where it's at. Hopefully I can run the secondarys wide open as designed but the dampers will be there if needed.

So the stove was overfiring but you don't know the temp??

 

[snobuilder]

Rutland magnetic gage was pegged on the stove top in front of the pipe at around zero degrees outside, no telling what it would have been indoors.

 

[bholler]

Rutland magnetic gage was pegged on the stove top in front of the pipe at around zero degrees outside, no telling what it would have been indoors.

Pegged at what temp? If it's a stove pipe thermometer that could be just fine. If it's a stove top thermometer that's not good. Either way most people firing their stove outside with a little bit of pipe ontop struggle to get the stove anywhere near operating temperature. So I am really concerned that you have a substantial air leak into the ashpan.

 

[snobuilder]

I guess I understand your concern and if it was letting in air that would definitely cause an overfire. All I can say is I was very aware of that when welding it up and onto the unit. The door seals tight as well. And as I posted earlier, when I closed the secondary burn ports off it quickly came down in flames and temp.....the airwash intake supply was already closed down as far as the factory design allows. The only other air supply is a non controlled 1/2" tube from the bottom plate that directs air at the base of the fire below the door.
Also the manufacturer recommends keeping the door open when starting a fire. With my set up just cracking the ashpan door open works much better and safer than leaving the door open IMO.

 

[bholler]

I guess I understand your concern and if it was letting in air that would definitely cause an overfire. All I can say is I was very aware of that when welding it up and onto the unit. The door seals tight as well. And as I posted earlier, when I closed the secondary burn ports off it quickly came down in flames and temp.....the airwash intake supply was already closed down as far as the factory design allows. The only other air supply is a non controlled 1/2" tube from the bottom plate that directs air at the base of the fire below the door.
Also the manufacturer recommends keeping the door open when starting a fire. With my set up just cracking the ashpan door open works much better and safer than leaving the door open IMO.

Leaving the ashpan open will crack the bottom of the stove without question. Do not do this

 

[jetsam]

Also the manufacturer recommends keeping the door open when starting a fire. With my set up just cracking the ashpan door open works much better and safer than leaving the door open IMO.

The manufacturer also sells some of the worst stoves out there. "Single burn rate" seems to be their code for "we have zero engineers on staff". Ranting about the EPA won't change their business model...

Please do a forum search for threads about people who have melted their stoves using an ash pan air boost, there's plenty of reading there. Here's one with quite a bit of good discussion from 2013... Story about a guy who lost his house with the old ash pan trick on page 2.

 

[MR. GLO]

Leaving the ashpan open will crack the bottom of the stove without question. Do not do this

When I had a jotul with ashpan...I closed the ashpan door wrong once, not fully closed and missed latch and walked away for 5 minutes and the leak alone was alarming. I was surprised I didn't damage stov or grate. I went to adding one or two piece of kidlin and even just add a small piece of Firestarter and lit to get the stove going again in am.

 

[snobuilder]

The manufacturer also sells some of the worst stoves out there. "Single burn rate" seems to be their code for "we have zero engineers on staff". Ranting about the EPA won't change their business model...

Please do a forum search for threads about people who have melted their stoves using an ash pan air boost, there's plenty of reading there. Here's one with quite a bit of good discussion from 2013... Story about a guy who lost his house with the old ash pan trick on page 2.

Nice rant on my high efficiency EPA compliant stove.....LOL... I know ...its a low end unit but its fairly heavy at the same time.

My chances of leaving the ash pan open are way less than someone leaving the dinky cleanout fire brick ajar or with ash under it.
My fix is way safer than what the EPA allowed to fly. Not to mention its everyday usefulness. I might have to patent this chit. ....oh wait....the design has been around for decades without a problem....DUH!

Now that I'm thinking about it that dinky little clean out is a frickin hazard just waiting to leak air into the stove. The ash would need to be COMPLETELY removed from the brick cavity for it to seal properly....How can anyone defend that crap?

 

[bholler]

Nice rant on my high efficiency EPA compliant stove.....LOL... I know ...its a low end unit but its fairly heavy at the same time.

My chances of leaving the ash pan open are way less than someone leaving the dinky cleanout fire brick ajar or with ash under it.
My fix is way safer than what the EPA allowed to fly. Not to mention its everyday usefulness. I might have to patent this chit. ....oh wait....the design has been around for decades without a problem....DUH!

Now that I'm thinking about it that dinky little clean out is a frickin hazard just waiting to leak air into the stove. The ash would need to be COMPLETELY removed from the brick cavity for it to seal properly....How can anyone defend that crap?

Again the EPA only tests emissions. It has absolutely nothing to do with the design of the ashpan or the crappy Chinese build quality.

I don't understand why you are blaming the EPA for the choices us stove company made.

 

[bholler]

Oh and through the years of working on many hundreds of stoves I have yet to see one destroyed by a leaky ash plug. But many by leaky doors on ash pans with grates. There is a good reason very few manufacturers use them anymore.

 

[snobuilder]

Again the EPA only tests emissions. It has absolutely nothing to do with the design of the ashpan or the crappy Chinese build quality.

I don't understand why you are blaming the EPA for the choices us stove company made.

I see that same crappy clean out design on all kinds of brands.

 

[bholler]

I see that same crappy clean out design on all kinds of brands.

Yes because it doesn't cause problems like a grate and pan design like yours. It has nothing to do with the EPA.

 

[snobuilder]

Not buying it. Worse design ever. Can't believed you keep defending it.

 

[bholler]

Not buying it. Worse design ever. Can't believed you keep defending it.

How many stoves do you work on a year? I honestly think ash pans of any sort are pointless. It's just easier to shovel it into a bucket leaving the proper layer of ash on the floor.