Stove not giving desired heat in room.

[jetsam]

Direct-connect OAKs are a reverse draft hazard for basement stoves- that's a fire hazard and a CO hazard. Decouple the OAK from the stove and you're ok again. You'll want to put a warm air trap at the intake.

 

[gthomas785]

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever installed a backdraft damper inside an OAK - basically a one way flap that would shut if there's a reverse draft condition? I've never heard of that but it seems like it would prevent the intake-becomes-a-chimney problem that people are worried about. Maybe it's not failsafe enough?

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

Page 39 in the manual lists the 111KT as optional for the stove, however they omit installation images in the manual.
I have attached photos as requested, the installer did mention there would be a air trap installed with it.

 

[CODwarzone]

To follow up on the air kit.
The only documentation I could find on the official kit is as follows:

Restrictions for the Outside Fresh Air Kit:

• Do not draw outside air from garage spaces
• Do not exhaust products of gasoline engines are hazardous
• Do not install outside air ducts such that the air may be drawn from attic spaces, basements, or above the roofing where other heating appliances or fans and chimneys exhaust or utilize air
• Air must always be drawn from outside

It does not specify a max length, if a U trap is permitted or not, but the description seems to indicate that it hooks up to the stove:

"The Outside Air Kit comes along with a 4' insulated flex pipe, the hood to prevent leaks and animal intrusion, and two clamps for the hood and the stove."

I have been trying to figure this out myself for some time now. I've been reading about the fresh air intake but there seems to be gaps in literature for this subject as opposed to readings about the venting system that say the same information over and over.

Actually you somewhat answered my question that I have been having about air intake which is if I can have the intake follow the vent up the chimney. However one of your items listed stated not to have it up on the roof for fear of grabbing the exhausted air. But that opens up a few questions if thats the case. For instance, if these inserts are EPA certified then whats the harm in grabbing the air from the chimney? The level of harmful gases is supposed to be super low, right? And its not like I'm leaving the insert door open to the room...

I also see there are several companies that offer a 2 in 1 venting system that have the 6 inch venting with an addition inch surrounding the same vent but as a fresh air intake. If its not advised to grab fresh air from the roof why would companies make a product like this? Not saying companies are looking out for our best interest but I find it difficult to believe that they would purposefully make a product that is innately harmful to our health.

I'm trying to see what options do I have for getting the fresh air. My fireplace is completely surrounded by bricks and im not looking to sacrifice the integrity of my chimney for the intake. After seeing your post im not sure if this should be added to yours or if I should just add this to the public forum and see if others have suggestions.

 

[bholler]

I have been trying to figure this out myself for some time now. I've been reading about the fresh air intake but there seems to be gaps in literature for this subject as opposed to readings about the venting system that say the same information over and over.

Actually you somewhat answered my question that I have been having about air intake which is if I can have the intake follow the vent up the chimney. However one of your items listed stated not to have it up on the roof for fear of grabbing the exhausted air. But that opens up a few questions if thats the case. For instance, if these inserts are EPA certified then whats the harm in grabbing the air from the chimney? The level of harmful gases is supposed to be super low, right? And its not like I'm leaving the insert door open to the room...

I also see there are several companies that offer a 2 in 1 venting system that have the 6 inch venting with an addition inch surrounding the same vent but as a fresh air intake. If its not advised to grab fresh air from the roof why would companies make a product like this? Not saying companies are looking out for our best interest but I find it difficult to believe that they would purposefully make a product that is innately harmful to our health.

I'm trying to see what options do I have for getting the fresh air. My fireplace is completely surrounded by bricks and im not looking to sacrifice the integrity of my chimney for the intake. After seeing your post im not sure if this should be added to yours or if I should just add this to the public forum and see if others have suggestions.

The intake cannot be above the stove

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

I have been trying to figure this out myself for some time now. I've been reading about the fresh air intake but there seems to be gaps in literature for this subject as opposed to readings about the venting system that say the same information over and over.

Actually you somewhat answered my question that I have been having about air intake which is if I can have the intake follow the vent up the chimney. However one of your items listed stated not to have it up on the roof for fear of grabbing the exhausted air. But that opens up a few questions if thats the case. For instance, if these inserts are EPA certified then whats the harm in grabbing the air from the chimney? The level of harmful gases is supposed to be super low, right? And its not like I'm leaving the insert door open to the room...

I also see there are several companies that offer a 2 in 1 venting system that have the 6 inch venting with an addition inch surrounding the same vent but as a fresh air intake. If its not advised to grab fresh air from the roof why would companies make a product like this? Not saying companies are looking out for our best interest but I find it difficult to believe that they would purposefully make a product that is innately harmful to our health.

I'm trying to see what options do I have for getting the fresh air. My fireplace is completely surrounded by bricks and im not looking to sacrifice the integrity of my chimney for the intake. After seeing your post im not sure if this should be added to yours or if I should just add this to the public forum and see if others have suggestions.

I have seen the systems you speak of where the chimney and OAK share the same space. There are a number of diagrams of that online. I can not speak to how effective they would be or safe as I dont have much understanding of those installs. We went for a install that is drawing from the side of the house into the basement (I will attach photos).

So we have the OAK installed now. We noticed that the wood is burning hotter and we can 'get to temp' faster. I have checked that the pipe is actually drawing air based off the temp of the uninsulated portion. We do notice when we close the air supply right down we get a 2nd burn started but it wont last unless we have the stove hot hot. That then led us to realize something else was wrong.

We have negative pressure in the basement and noticed that any combination of our radon mitigation kit + laundry / HWT / HVAC / range hood causes drafting into the house when starting / ending a burn. We never really noticed a downward draft ever before but if any 2 of the items above happen to be running in the house its like night and day. Not only is there a reverse draft in the stove pipe during the coal period but we get a reverse draft through our bathroom fans. We had a HVAC guy come out and inspect the bathroom fan as I suspected it was venting into the attic and we were getting bad drafts and they claim its working as inteded and the (excuse the lack of proper term) flaps/closure system is working as inteded.

I am unable to makeup the difference of the 150CFM fan used to remove sub slab radon with our 120CFM HRV and I dont like to choose between having heat and when I can wash clothes. We are in talks with a HVAC guy and the radon installers to get this resolved but the Christmas season has slowed it down. We have been caught in a three way argument since install.
-The fireplace installer refuses to suggest anything other than the OAK we had installed to resolve the issue.
-The HVAC guy does not think radon is real. (Federal levels are 200 or lower, ours is 1,900 and due to COVID we are working in the space all day)
-The radon guy says that its not his problem, the difference being his fan runs 24/7 the range hood does not. (the radon work is being done under house warranty so I would prefer that so I am not out of pocket)

Our approach will be to reduce the radon kit by half the CFM and install a air makeup with a 'U' trap in the mechinacal room to supply the basement with air.

So in short; the OAK made a difference and I can feel it pull air hard when I close up the air supply we are getting hotter fires. In a new build or tight build I would install the OAK again. However that being said we have other underlying issues we need to resolve before we ensure safe unattended operation of the stove.

Lets hope I can get someone to get this fixed before we hit -20 again...

 

[tabner]

I have seen the systems you speak of where the chimney and OAK share the same space. There are a number of diagrams of that online. I can not speak to how effective they would be or safe as I dont have much understanding of those installs. We went for a install that is drawing from the side of the house into the basement (I will attach photos).

So we have the OAK installed now. We noticed that the wood is burning hotter and we can 'get to temp' faster. I have checked that the pipe is actually drawing air based off the temp of the uninsulated portion. We do notice when we close the air supply right down we get a 2nd burn started but it wont last unless we have the stove hot hot. That then led us to realize something else was wrong.

We have negative pressure in the basement and noticed that any combination of our radon mitigation kit + laundry / HWT / HVAC / range hood causes drafting into the house when starting / ending a burn. We never really noticed a downward draft ever before but if any 2 of the items above happen to be running in the house its like night and day. Not only is there a reverse draft in the stove pipe during the coal period but we get a reverse draft through our bathroom fans. We had a HVAC guy come out and inspect the bathroom fan as I suspected it was venting into the attic and we were getting bad drafts and they claim its working as inteded and the (excuse the lack of proper term) flaps/closure system is working as inteded.

I am unable to makeup the difference of the 150CFM fan used to remove sub slab radon with our 120CFM HRV and I dont like to choose between having heat and when I can wash clothes. We are in talks with a HVAC guy and the radon installers to get this resolved but the Christmas season has slowed it down. We have been caught in a three way argument since install.
-The fireplace installer refuses to suggest anything other than the OAK we had installed to resolve the issue.
-The HVAC guy does not think radon is real. (Federal levels are 200 or lower, ours is 1,900 and due to COVID we are working in the space all day)
-The radon guy says that its not his problem, the difference being his fan runs 24/7 the range hood does not. (the radon work is being done under house warranty so I would prefer that so I am not out of pocket)

Our approach will be to reduce the radon kit by half the CFM and install a air makeup with a 'U' trap in the mechinacal room to supply the basement with air.

So in short; the OAK made a difference and I can feel it pull air hard when I close up the air supply we are getting hotter fires. In a new build or tight build I would install the OAK again. However that being said we have other underlying issues we need to resolve before we ensure safe unattended operation of the stove.

Lets hope I can get someone to get this fixed before we hit -20 again...

How did you end up connecting the OAK (sorry if I missed it above). If I remember correctly you have the stove on the basement slab, so in order to vent the OAK to daylight you had to come up 7 feet or so to drill through the sill wall. But it's of course not allowed to have an OAK terminate higher than the stove, for fear of it acting as a chimney. I think there was some talk about an OAK that ran into the base of your stove, with a break before the intake on your stove? Therefore allowing a break in the flow? I am also doing a basement install and I'd like to do an OAK, wondering if you found a solution.

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

How did you end up connecting the OAK (sorry if I missed it above). If I remember correctly you have the stove on the basement slab, so in order to vent the OAK to daylight you had to come up 7 feet or so to drill through the sill wall. But it's of course not allowed to have an OAK terminate higher than the stove, for fear of it acting as a chimney. I think there was some talk about an OAK that ran into the base of your stove, with a break before the intake on your stove? Therefore allowing a break in the flow? I am also doing a basement install and I'd like to do an OAK, wondering if you found a solution.

The OAK is connected to the base of the stove not direct to the firebox as per the instructions for my S20.
Being in the basement we run the OAK upwards, the fireplace installer had no issue with it as there should not be a backdraft into the OAK as it is not air tight.

I tested the OAK and found littler air flow when the stove is not in use, only when the stove air is shut down then you can feel the air pulling from the source under the stove not from the front. The advantage is then the air is coming from under the firebrick where the ash drawer is.

See below from the manual, pre OAK the air was drawn in from the room (red circle) this is the warm air we had just heated with being sucked up the chimeny.

The yellow path is air from the OAK, it is drawn throught the bottom of the stove and uses outside air.

The OAK should only be connected to the pedestal of the stove not to the firebox itself. So to satisfy the worry of backdraft inside the pedestal is a open area with the ash tray, the front door, and all of these have vent holes as well. I am by no means a fireplace isntaller I leaned heavily on the manual and what the fireplace installers had told us to do. I dont think they would have installed the OAK in the basement if it would have been an issue and I see no mention of there being a requirement of it having to run down or vertical only on my specific wood stove. Again the oak is NOT air tight to the stove.

To be safe consult your manual and a fireplace installer.

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

How did you end up connecting the OAK (sorry if I missed it above). If I remember correctly you have the stove on the basement slab, so in order to vent the OAK to daylight you had to come up 7 feet or so to drill through the sill wall. But it's of course not allowed to have an OAK terminate higher than the stove, for fear of it acting as a chimney. I think there was some talk about an OAK that ran into the base of your stove, with a break before the intake on your stove? Therefore allowing a break in the flow? I am also doing a basement install and I'd like to do an OAK, wondering if you found a solution.

Also read this in regards to my specific install it may or may not help you.

 

[tabner]

The OAK is connected to the base of the stove not direct to the firebox as per the instructions for my S20.
Being in the basement we run the OAK upwards, the fireplace installer had no issue with it as there should not be a backdraft into the OAK as it is not air tight.

I tested the OAK and found littler air flow when the stove is not in use, only when the stove air is shut down then you can feel the air pulling from the source under the stove not from the front. The advantage is then the air is coming from under the firebrick where the ash drawer is.

See below from the manual, pre OAK the air was drawn in from the room (red circle) this is the warm air we had just heated with being sucked up the chimeny.

The yellow path is air from the OAK, it is drawn throught the bottom of the stove and uses outside air.

View attachment 271120

The OAK should only be connected to the pedestal of the stove not to the firebox itself. So to satisfy the worry of backdraft inside the pedestal is a open area with the ash tray, the front door, and all of these have vent holes as well. I am by no means a fireplace isntaller I leaned heavily on the manual and what the fireplace installers had told us to do. I dont think they would have installed the OAK in the basement if it would have been an issue and I see no mention of there being a requirement of it having to run down or vertical only on my specific wood stove. Again the oak is NOT air tight to the stove.
View attachment 271121

To be safe consult your manual and a fireplace installer.

Yes, definitely, I understand. This is what I was curious about. My stove does not have the "air box" or "air gap" design, but I'm wondering if this technique could be applied to other stove types. Either by building a small box under the stove with gaps and just running OAK to it. Or perhaps just a vent in the OAK near the stove. Not sure. My stove manual specifically says the OAK must terminate at the same height as, or below, the height it leaves the stove at. But again, my stove does not have the pedistel/air box/base. I'm just wondering if there is a safe way to solve the issue. So your OAK does terminate higher than the stove?

 

[NewStoveOwner2020]

Yes, definitely, I understand. This is what I was curious about. My stove does not have the "air box" or "air gap" design, but I'm wondering if this technique could be applied to other stove types. Either by building a small box under the stove with gaps and just running OAK to it. Or perhaps just a vent in the OAK near the stove. Not sure. My stove manual specifically says the OAK must terminate at the same height as, or below, the height it leaves the stove at. But again, my stove does not have the pedistel/air box/base. I'm just wondering if there is a safe way to solve the issue. So your OAK does terminate higher than the stove?

Oh yeah it terminates much higher than the stove after about a 15 foot horizontal run. We live in a raised ranch style home and the stove is installed right on the slab itself and the OAK draws from about 4 feet off the ground outside.

If you do consider a outside source of air near the stove I know our code here states it must be 10ft away from the stove. You can find products sold at HD called 'air makeup kits' that may be what you are looking for.

As usual this comes with the caveat as my username is NewStoveOwner2020, and I have no experience with stove/HVAC these are the options that were presented to me by the fireplace guys and the HVAC guys as being 'to code' in my area.

 

[bholler]

Oh yeah it terminates much higher than the stove after about a 15 foot horizontal run. We live in a raised ranch style home and the stove is installed right on the slab itself and the OAK draws from about 4 feet off the ground outside.

If you do consider a outside source of air near the stove I know our code here states it must be 10ft away from the stove. You can find products sold at HD called 'air makeup kits' that may be what you are looking for.

As usual this comes with the caveat as my username is NewStoveOwner2020, and I have no experience with stove/HVAC these are the options that were presented to me by the fireplace guys and the HVAC guys as being 'to code' in my area.

A fresh air vent does not need to be 10' from the stove. That is for a cold air return vent in a hvac system