Stove installed!

[begreen]

Bholler is the code expert, but the clay liner is not the reason for insulating the liner. It's the clearance of the chimney from the surrounding wood framing that counts. It should be 2" for an interior chimney. 1" for an exterior chimney.

If this is their primary business then they should have done a better job and at least offered the option of installing a block-off plate.

 

[mcstatz5829]

Bholler is the code expert, but the clay liner is not the reason for insulating the liner. It's the clearance of the chimney from the surrounding wood framing that counts. It should be 2" for an interior chimney. 1" for an exterior chimney.

If this is their primary business then they should have done a better job and at least offered the option of installing a block-off plate.

Thanks. Hopefully bholler has a chance to chime in again.

I’m assuming the masonry itself doesn’t count towards the clearances? Only insulation around the flue or the masonry?

I tried to look up the Indiana code online but all I could find was an amendment saying which sections to delete and what to add.

 

[mcstatz5829]

Well from what I can figure out, Indiana punts to International Building Code, International Building Code punts to UL 103, and from the manufacturer of the liner: “M-Flex liner is UL listed by underwriter laboratories to UL 1777, 64, 441 standards.”

So until I can get a hold of the fire marshal (hopefully won’t have to go that far) or my hands on a pirated copy of UL 103, I’m thinking Indiana isn’t one of those states that doesn’t require the insulation for code (sorry for the double negative)

 

[bholler]

Bg pretty much covered it. Unless you have the required clearance from the outside of the chimney structure to any combustible materials 1" for external 2" for internal you need insulation. And i can tell you from years of experience very few have that clearance

 

[Blazingembers7749]

Agreed... aside from that you want insulation for several other reasons. An isulated liner is going to retain more heat than an uninsulater liner which will have several benifits. Better draft, Draft will be established quicker, and Less creosote formation to name a few. Kinda stinks that you cant even use the cook top or the hinged warming shelves. I would have an insulated liner put in with proper appliance connector as well as top plate/cap. The liner should be insulatetd all the way to the appliance connector and all crimped ends should be facing down ie. The liner goes inside the appliance connector and the appliance connector goes inside the flue collar of the stove so that any creosote would drain back into the stove where it can be contained and burned. Also i would recommend stuffing the flue with roxul and adding a blockoff plate. Make sure the blockoff plate is not galvanized. Also i recommend stuffing around the liner at the top before the top plate is put on. The 16" on that particular stove is only for ember protection so u could use an extension if you wanted. I would be careful with that tv as not to overheat it also if you do pull the stove out some check the clearances from the top of the stove... i believe they are almost 56" to combustible surfaces.

 

[mcstatz5829]

Agreed... aside from that you want insulation for several other reasons. An isulated liner is going to retain more heat than an uninsulater liner which will have several benifits. Better draft, Draft will be established quicker, and Less creosote formation to name a few. Kinda stinks that you cant even use the cook top or the hinged warming shelves. I would have an insulated liner put in with proper appliance connector as well as top plate/cap. The liner should be insulatetd all the way to the appliance connector and all crimped ends should be facing down ie. The liner goes inside the appliance connector and the appliance connector goes inside the flue collar of the stove so that any creosote would drain back into the stove where it can be contained and burned. Also i would recommend stuffing the flue with roxul and adding a blockoff plate. Make sure the blockoff plate is not galvanized. Also i recommend stuffing around the liner at the top before the top plate is put on. The 16" on that particular stove is only for ember protection so u could use an extension if you wanted. I would be careful with that tv as not to overheat it also if you do pull the stove out some check the clearances from the top of the stove... i believe they are almost 56" to combustible surfaces.

Thank you for that! I wasn’t sure how much to be worried about the connection. I took a deeper look and there’s some sort of sleeve adapter that both the stovepipe and the liner are wrapped around and screwed into. So there are ends on there where creosote can build.

Good news! I submitted a review to their internal system (not ready to hit up Yelp or fire marshal, will save the nuclear option if needed) and I already got an email from a manager promising to make it right and to come out to inspect. Hopefully the deeds match the words, but good start!

The yet-to-be-installed mantel should protect the TV. If I really need 56” then I am screwed! Manual doesn’t say anything about clearances from top. If mantel doesn’t protect TV, then... well that will suck if it doesn’t. I won’t know what to do then.

Yes not being able to use the cooktops stinks. In hindsight, a lot more demo would need to be done to really open it up and make it nice. I’m no expert, but I did get the chance to inspect how much was demoed, and my best guess was there wasn’t much to go before getting into structural components. Probably would have be better to just bite the bullet and get it done. As I said in a previous post... expensive lessons...

The installer told me he sealed the top. There’s that at least.

 

[mcstatz5829]

Bg pretty much covered it. Unless you have the required clearance from the outside of the chimney structure to any combustible materials 1" for external 2" for internal you need insulation. And i can tell you from years of experience very few have that clearance

5 seconds in the attic confirm. 0” clearance.

Outside of chimney is in garage - does that count as interior or exterior?

 

[bholler]

5 seconds in the attic confirm. 0” clearance.

Outside of chimney is in garage - does that count as interior or exterior?

Yeah that is pretty much the norm

 

[bholler]

Agreed... aside from that you want insulation for several other reasons. An isulated liner is going to retain more heat than an uninsulater liner which will have several benifits. Better draft, Draft will be established quicker, and Less creosote formation to name a few. Kinda stinks that you cant even use the cook top or the hinged warming shelves. I would have an insulated liner put in with proper appliance connector as well as top plate/cap. The liner should be insulatetd all the way to the appliance connector and all crimped ends should be facing down ie. The liner goes inside the appliance connector and the appliance connector goes inside the flue collar of the stove so that any creosote would drain back into the stove where it can be contained and burned. Also i would recommend stuffing the flue with roxul and adding a blockoff plate. Make sure the blockoff plate is not galvanized. Also i recommend stuffing around the liner at the top before the top plate is put on. The 16" on that particular stove is only for ember protection so u could use an extension if you wanted. I would be careful with that tv as not to overheat it also if you do pull the stove out some check the clearances from the top of the stove... i believe they are almost 56" to combustible surfaces.

Well said i agree with everything but the block off plate can be galvanized it wont get hot enough to be an issue

 

[brenndatomu]

Looks like a good FP for an insert style stove. That's the reason I switched from free stander with blower option to insert stove...gotta pull the stove to clean the blower...and the blower will need cleaned at least once per year in my experience.
But if stuck with this stove, and If the blower option is only 3" wide...what about the taper of the back wall of the FP...in many FP's there is that much and more taper bottom to top...worth checking on...maybe. (in other words, the top of the stove may be against the brick in the back, but there is a wide gap at the bottom)
Before I installed the blower on the back of my free stander, I used a couple computer fans sitting on the floor beside the stove blowing cool air into the FP...pushed heat right out the top. Gotta have a decent blockoff plate to do this effectively though...

 

[mcstatz5829]

Great news! I met the project manager this morning. He promised to make it right. They’ll replace with insulated liner, change the adaptor, insulate the bottom of smoke chamber, install a block plate, and seal the block plate off with fire mortar.

I am very pleased with how rapid, professional, and accommodating they were. Reading between the lines, he admitted he sent the wrong crew out for the job. The crew they sent was more experienced in the masonry.

If the reinstall goes well, I would definitely do business with this company again.

 

[mcstatz5829]

Thanks again to everyone for sharing your expertise and being patient. Without you all I would be huddled next to the stove this February wondering why I have to sleep on the hearth...

 

[begreen]

Great. One thing I would ask to change is to use silicone on the perimeter of the block-off plate. If it is cut precisely then there should only be a small gap around where the flue liner passes through. This can be filled with gasket material. Any mortar there will just flake off and fall on the stove top.

Will you be able to move the stove forward enough to install a blower?

 

[mcstatz5829]

Great. One thing I would ask to change is to use silicone on the perimeter of the block-off plate. If it is cut precisely then there should only be a small gap around where the flue liner passes through. This can be filled with gasket material. Any mortar there will just flake off and fall on the stove top.

Will you be able to move the stove forward enough to install a blower?

Handily enough I have silicone rated to 1300F - but will that be enough right next to the flue?

No on the blower. We talked about a possible future project to make that happen and really bring the stove out into the room. I’ll rig up something if natural circulation doesn’t do the trick.

 

[begreen]

Regular silicone can be used on the block-off plate perimeter flange where it attaches to the inside of the fireplace. I would not use it on the liner gap.

 

[mcstatz5829]

Regular silicone can be used on the block-off plate perimeter flange where it attaches to the inside of the fireplace. I would not use it on the liner gap.

I misread your first post. I get it now

 

[Blazingembers7749]

Well said i agree with everything but the block off plate can be galvanized it wont get hot enough to be an issue

The only problems ive had from galvanized block off plates were related to corrosion. Same thing with plain steel. Ive only seen 3 that were rusted out that were galvanized and several more that were not. The 3 ive seen were admittedly from chimneys that had water entry and humidity issues. I always assumed that its possible the working temp for galvanised was low enough to have caused this in those particular applications. Having said that i have seen many generic steel and galvanized blockoff plates with no issues. My personal preference has been 304 stainless and ive even done them with hardie backer board and used angle iron to hold the backer board up and filled around the edges with mortar. I was ptobably wrong in saying dont to use galvanized as i have seen it work in many applications. I have yet to see a piece of 304 stainless corrode out in this application but honestly im not sure of any ive seen over a few years old.

 

[bholler]

The only problems ive had from galvanized block off plates were related to corrosion. Same thing with plain steel. Ive only seen 3 that were rusted out that were galvanized and several more that were not. The 3 ive seen were admittedly from chimneys that had water entry and humidity issues. I always assumed that its possible the working temp for galvanised was low enough to have caused this in those particular applications. Having said that i have seen many generic steel and galvanized blockoff plates with no issues. My personal preference has been 304 stainless and ive even done them with hardie backer board and used angle iron to hold the backer board up and filled around the edges with mortar. I was ptobably wrong in saying dont to use galvanized as i have seen it work in many applications. I have yet to see a piece of 304 stainless corrode out in this application but honestly im not sure of any ive seen over a few years old.

Yes if you have water intrusion issues a galvanized plate will rust out. But you should address that intrusion issues before it has a chance to rust out the plate. Stainless isnt a bad idea but it adds allot of cost.

 

[Blazingembers7749]

Agreed on the water entry. Stainless is just the way i do block off plates for the reasons stated but that doesnt make it the ONLY WAY to properly do them and it definitely does add cost. my lower cost solution for people has been backer board blockoff plates.

 

[mcstatz5829]

All done! I am very pleased. I tipped the guys well.

Insulated liner coming down


Roxul crammed in the old smoke chamber:


Block plate installed with high temp aluminum tape. After this picture they stuffed more roxul in the janky hole and sealed that up too:

 

[begreen]

I'll give them 3 out of 4. Good to see the insulated liner and roxul stuffing, but the block-off plate and its installation looks like it was done by an amateur. Metal tape is great, but not here. The blockoff plate should have had a flange and mechanical fastening to the fireplace walls. And the hole, well yes, it's janky.

 

[Blazingembers7749]

Ive also never insulated a liner and not put a mesh screen over the liner to help keep the insulation in place. But i fo think its good they are addressing your concerns in a timely fashion

 

[mcstatz5829]

I didn’t mean to imply that the plate is held by the tape - it’s mounted with masonry anchors. But yes, I imagine a flange would have been better! Especially around Mr. Janky Hole.

I imagine now the biggest impediment to function is lack of blower. But as I said I will rig something up if natural circulation isn’t enough.

 

[Pertzbro]

How does this meet alcove installation clearance requirements? Minimum height is 7 feet, you have maybe 2.5 feet? Side clearance of 16 inches and you have maybe 6 inches?

 

[begreen]

It's a fireplace install, not an alcove. All surrounding surfaces should have at least 8" masonry and are non-combustible.