Stove Dealer go's under

[smwilliamson]

So if you buy an Englander pellet stove, motor breaks next month. They will send you a new motor under warranty but no labor credit? So if a customer cant fix themselves, they contact a local hearth shop and pay them to make the repair?

I believe that is how it works, sir. So, yea, their service policy is fine if the customer wants to, and has the know-how to, replace the part. If he cant, he can hire the local stove shop to do it, or bring in someone who knows how to do it, like Scott. Here is a good question, though. I am sure Scott probably stocks the parts...so, if its still under warrantee, Scott, do you go out, replace it for the customer, and chase the money (for parts and labor) from Englander? I think that when folks buy the Englander units, I guess they also agree to their warrantee policy, which is replacement of parts only? I might be wrong here though. I've heard alot of good reviews from folks about Engander, so it must not be much of an issue, I guess. Maybe Englander customers are more tech savvy than regular pellet stove users? Maybe allowances are made for less expensive units (by the customer), such as Englander? maybe allowances are made (again, by the customer), because they chose to buy the unit from a mass merchandiser rather than a stove shop? (The idea being they paid alot more for the Quad or Harman, so, by golly, it SHOULD come with someone to replace parts? Conundrum for me. I know we have worked on them when folks ask, but we get our regular rate, including travel time, AFTER the customer gets the warranteed parts in hand.

Englander offers no labor whatsoever. Not when you buy the stove to have it installed, not when a part breaks under warranty and not when new parts are needed after warranty. You have to understand that their products actually do not fail that often...or shall I say no more often than anything else which is sold in the same market. And they cost a whole lot less for new units. Perhaps paying a professional like me for a repair is more palatable when the initial cost of the unit is thousands less. I don't know.

Englander has actually referred my company many times. They have always been a pleasure to deal with on the phone and when I order parts they are always fully stocked and the parts arrive a day or so later.

Their products don't look like a Harman XXV but their phone lines are open to the public. To each their own.

 

[smwilliamson]

So if you buy an Englander pellet stove, motor breaks next month. They will send you a new motor under warranty but no labor credit? So if a customer cant fix themselves, they contact a local hearth shop and pay them to make the repair?

I believe that is how it works, sir. So, yea, their service policy is fine if the customer wants to, and has the know-how to, replace the part. If he cant, he can hire the local stove shop to do it, or bring in someone who knows how to do it, like Scott. Here is a good question, though. I am sure Scott probably stocks the parts...so, if its still under warrantee, Scott, do you go out, replace it for the customer, and chase the money (for parts and labor) from Englander? I think that when folks buy the Englander units, I guess they also agree to their warrantee policy, which is replacement of parts only? I might be wrong here though. I've heard alot of good reviews from folks about Engander, so it must not be much of an issue, I guess. Maybe Englander customers are more tech savvy than regular pellet stove users? Maybe allowances are made for less expensive units (by the customer), such as Englander? maybe allowances are made (again, by the customer), because they chose to buy the unit from a mass merchandiser rather than a stove shop? (The idea being they paid alot more for the Quad or Harman, so, by golly, it SHOULD come with someone to replace parts? Conundrum for me. I know we have worked on them when folks ask, but we get our regular rate, including travel time, AFTER the customer gets the warranteed parts in hand.

Englander will NOT send me warranty parts as they are attached to serial numbers and are mailed to the customer...though I will do the paperwork for the customer (send an email) to get the party started.

 

[smwilliamson]

Let's be Frank (not Franks)

The big makers of stoves are bean counters these days. Of course, many small makers and dealers are also! Maybe we ALL are.

As long as they feel that certain policies or behaviors are rewarding them, they will continue these behaviors. They usually don't have any "big picture" people (don't ask me how I know this) people who would think things out a couple chess moves and understand that supporting independent service people is a MUST in this industry....that is, the Pellet Stove and Gas Stove part.

Put Frankly once again, I suppose that some manufactures make this calculation - not pointing fingers here - it may just be they have not thought out it!
"it's better to screw 10 customers who already bought stoves than to piss off one or two dealers who are going to buy a LOT more stoves".

Of course, some dealers act like Cavemen too......you'd be amazed at how many I have talked to that constantly complain to the VERY TOP about ridiculous stuff.

To add to my fake quote above, there is this one "So what if Jon Dealer goes out of business - plenty of his competitors nearby are ready to jump in".

As you see, neither of those quotes is customer orientated.

I have no doubt that the Pellet Revolution has been held back by the LACK OF focus on the customer, and in fact used my position on a panel at the HeatNE conference last year to say just that. It astounds me that someone buying a product these days - whether $1500 or $4000, has to beg for anything. They should be able to get service close to what they can get for their oil or gas burner - period.

Agree or Disagree?

When you say it it sounds less chest thumping than when I do. I really liked your posistions at the conference last year...up there with all those lawmakers and industry shapers in suits...and then the hippie in the sweater vest talking about keeping it real. Classic. Di you see the program this year...I'm sitting a panel too. Only found out while I was reading the program prior to purchasing my pass. I GET IN FREE NOW!

 

[Lousyweather]

so many good points........we kind of cover the spectrum here, and there are some many separate ideas and issues, its hard to keep a cohesive thread......Im working today, so, here goes......

As for the Big boxes and stove sales.....they dont have customer service, so need to rely on someone who deals directly with the customer, like Englander. Its fine if the customer can do their own work, but if they cant, well, there's always guys like Scott. Some are great, some arent.....I guess you go by referrals there. Frankly, people dont expect any kind of customer service from the big boxes, they are willing to allow that to pay less for a unit, and thats fine, it takes all kinds. I do submit though, if a stove shop were selling Englander, for the same price, they would likely be held to a higher level of expectations than the big boxes.....

As TLHinCanada said, "business philosophy has changed in the last 50 years", absolutely agreed. But why has it changed? Could part of the change be due to the fact that the customer has changed greatly in that time as well (the old what came fire, the chicken or the egg argument?)? Remember the old "corner market" mom and pop stores? As a rule, they most likely gave service that VERY FEW in business today can meet.....they knew the customers, the customers knew them, and, in most cases, their families. They were greeted with someone knowledgeable in their field, often offering in-store credit, and service after the sale. Well, where have all the mom-and-pops gone? I think they are gone because of the change in consumer attitudes for the most part, and the mercenarial nature of the consumer. Why buy hamburger from neighbor Bob when I can buy it from teenage Spiffy at the local Hugemart for ten cents per pound less? So, they go to Hugemart. How does Bob compete with Hugemart and their volume buying? Well, when Hugemart sells things (the largest volume items) at cost or below cost, it gets difficult for Bob. Maybe he can hope that some loyal people will pay him ten cents more (the Hugemart) for hamburger? I think we all see what the outcome of that is, dont we? Where are the mom-and-pops? Gone. Gone because the great majority of folks made the decision to buy from Hugemart. Oh, they still b*tch and moan about Hugemarts service and quality, but they are still there, nonetheless. In the earlier days they were there because they chose to be there, but now they are there because they are the only gig in town......Remember the "good ole days"? They are gone because we killed them. And they werent so good.


Our business has been around for a long time......well over a century. Im old enough to recall having gone to the mom-and-pops. I like to think we still do business that way. I will say though, I have gotten pretty good at picking out the mercenarial folks, to whom the cheapest price is their only criterion for buying. They will come in and ask for the cheapest price, or "whats THEIR price"...wink-wink......everyone pays the same price. They generally dont like that. We dont sell units we cant service. We also require that same level of service from our suppliers. If they cant provide it, we dont utilize them. While its nice to offer what we think is good service, it makes you feel good, we also dont waste time with people who insist you price match, live outside a reasonable area for service, or who are just plain mean.......I still think a sale is a two-way street, although Im reasonably sure some of you folks will disagree with that. I think we all have stories of people who are just bad customers.......(ok, now hit me with all the cr&p about one unsatisfied customer tells 10 others, blahblahblah....outdated drivel, from people who never have to deal with customers....)

I think most of the folks who come here, pellet stove users and dealers and servicepeople, all the way up to Craig, are a cut above the norms these days. Its certainly a good source of info, free info, for many. Although I dont agree with some of the political leanings I see here, I dont come here for that, and frankly, it offers me amusement. I come here to read the opinions of many, and to try and help in whatever small way I can.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

"the chicken or the egg argument"

The chicken came via express mail and between 15 and 48 weeks later the eggs started arriving.

 

[Como]

As long as the local shop can match the best internet prices, I am sure they can grown and survive.....

I really do not see how biomass stoves and boilers etc are different from anything else, just because they burn wood products?

I just wonder if the same people who complain about the shopping mentality also are happy to pay MSRP for their next vehicle. There tends to be a lot of hypocrisy around.

 

[Lousyweather]

As long as the local shop can match the best internet prices, I am sure they can grown and survive.....

I really do not see how biomass stoves and boilers etc are different from anything else, just because they burn wood products?

I just wonder if the same people who complain about the shopping mentality also are happy to pay MSRP for their next vehicle. There tends to be a lot of hypocrisy around.

lets see...the local shop, brick and mortar, has to match the "best" internet prices, and if they can do that, they will survive......ridiculous. So, now we have to provide service, which the internet guy doesnt, have to keep a showroom, which the internet guy doesnt, have to staff the showroon, which the internet guy doesnt, and THEN match the price? Do you see the futility of that statement? This is why we dont support the companies who make their product available over the internet.....

As for paying MSRP for their next vehicle....do many folks buy the vehicle over the internet and have it shipped to their place? Does the vehicle have to be installed and then inspected by a local inspector to ensure its done "right"? I buy used. And I buy it from a dealer I can trust, who can service the unit when it breaks down, who I know will be there tomorrow and next year, needs be.

 

[Como]

You missed the ....

We have the highest gas prices in Colorado, so what do the locals do, they fill up when down on the front range.

And there you are talking less than $10.

Ditto Supermarkets, a lot of second home owners around, do they buy in the local supermarket or buy at the big ones their way up?

Just bought some tools, I know the local hardware shop could have ordered them for me, but a gallon of gas to collect and I can order them online and have them quicker and delivered to my door at a lower price.

For our vehicles we still use the same mechanic when we can that my wife has used for 25 years, a bit of a trek, but. He services vehicles, he does not sell them. I bought my car online, I went to the Dealer to pick it up and it still took they way longer than it should have to do the paperwork. Bought a van for the stepdaughter through CL. Ditto electrician/plumber whatever, I pay them for their added value, not for sourcing a washing machine. Whatever.

If you can add value, that is one thing, selling a box, well being local does not always help.

BTW - the local stove shop does not install, they have recommended contractors.

 

[krooser]

The only reason I prepaid , the dealer told me that by joining his pellet club and prepaying he could keep pellet prices down. Thought I would save money, lesson hard learned.

If you paid by credit card contact the card company and dispute the charges... you will likely get your money back. there are certain time restraints though.

 

[Lousyweather]

The only reason I prepaid , the dealer told me that by joining his pellet club and prepaying he could keep pellet prices down. Thought I would save money, lesson hard learned.

If you paid by credit card contact the card company and dispute the charges... you will likely get your money back. there are certain time restraints though.

usually 6 months to a year, depending upon the carrier. The only issue is if the merchant no longer does anyting with the credit card company, you MAY be out of luck....how they do this is with a chargeback to the merchant....if the merchant has gone under, well, no chargeback....do you think the credit card company will take it on the chin? unlikely. Sounds like you have a good case though, thats for sure! Other than that, a note to the Attorney general?