Stihl HP Ultra - anyone have issues with this Oil

[Isaac Carlson]

Chainsaws develop a film in the case that is constantly used and replaced. It migrates with the airflow. That's why we apply oil to the parts when we assemble them, because just the oil in the fuel is not enough until it builds up a little. Oils with higher film strength should do fine at lower concentrations and vice versa.

When I tear my saws down, there is no pool of oil, just an oily film on everything. If they sit long enough there may be a little drop that collects in the bottom, but it is far from a pool. You need enough oil to lubricate but not so much that it smokes or stinks real bad. How you tune is a huge factor. I hear a ton of saws that never get close to their rated rpm when not under a load. They 4 stroke constantly. That means there is a ton of oil going through the case, even at very lean ratios, and even more at 40, 32, or 25:1. The problem with that is carbon and emissions.

I run 50:1 and tune for slight burble at wot and it cleans up under load. I keep my chains sharp. My saws are not new and have about 15 years of hard use. I hear amsoil runs at 100:1, and people use it. 50:1 is plenty for me. People say to run more in case you get an air leak, but that's no guarantee. It might help, but it might not. If you have a big enough air leak to kill the saw outright, you should hear it in the tune. Oil mix isn't going to fix it.

I have found massive carbon in saws, to the point they would not run. Mine don't build carbon, just a very thin film of soot that wipes off. I'm not running hp ultra, but I do have some and might try it, but I have seen a ton of carbon in engines that drink hp. As long as you have decent oil in the fuel that is meant for saws, and you tune correctly and your saw is in good shape, you shouldn't have any trouble. Some oils make more carbon than others, and that is something to test.

 

[highanddryinco]

Chainsaws develop a film in the case that is constantly used and replaced........

Exactly what he said.
This thread occasionally seems to drift in a direction confusing some into thinking that depending on the ratio, the gasoline runs the engine and the oil lubes it. It's important to remember that it's really just a one package deal.

 

[vbu]

I've been using the Amsoil dominator oil thinking that was the best oil available. After reading this thread, I am not so sure anymore. I read a lot of good things about the echo red armour. Is this Amsoil any good to run in saws?

https://www.amsoil.com/p/dominator-synthetic-2-stroke-racing-oil-tdr/

Data sheet https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/g1985.pdf
It is rated as a API TC oil, whatever that means

 

[Isaac Carlson]

Amsoil has been around a long time, and they stand behind their product well, from what I hear. I don't like the price, but I don't slam them for it either.

I use tall timber oil. It's a less known brand, maybe only available in the midwest. I run it because it's affordable, doesn't stink, doesn't build carbon when tuned right, and it keeps the saws in good shape. I think most oils will perform well when used as intended. It's when people tune rich or use more than they're supposed to that things go south.

 

[sloeffle]

Recently switched from Stihl Ultra to Echo Red Armor. I have a few bottles of Ultra left, once they are used up I’ll never go back to Ultra. After a few hours of running my saws now, I don’t smell like a smokestack like I did with the Ultra.

Breathing that in, that can’t be good for you either.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

Right. But some guys "like the smell" of certain oils. If there is a small, it isn't burning completely or it is getting blown out the exhaust in raw form. I put pipe outlets on my saws that direct the exhaust away from me. I prefer over the bar, to the right, so it doesn't blow in my face when felling. I would switch to electric in a heartbeat if the battery tech was on bar with gas in the energy density dept, just so I didn't have to breathe exhaust fumes.

The saws I have seen burned up have been stock saws, usually homeowner grade because that's what people buy around here. Stock saws run hot. Real hot. Choking off the exhaust keeps all the heat in the saw and that breaks down any oil and raises piston temps closer to melting. If there was only one mod I could choose to do on every saw, it would be a muffler mod. Get that heat out of there. Stock saws burn less fuel (and oil) per minute, but run much hotter, which means they are on the verge of meltdown to begin with because the internals are starved for fresh cool oil.

Ported saws run cooler, burn more fuel (and oil) per minute, and have much more air flow through (and around) the motor to cool it.
It is not uncommon for stock saws to tick, creak, and pop after shutting off. This is because of the high heat retention and thermal expansion/contraction. None of my ported saws make noise when cooling down, and they reach ambient temps much faster than a stock saw. I have been very badly burned on stock mufflers quite a while after they were shut down. Ported mufflers are cool to the touch in practically no time. I can shut off my ported saws and put them in the car almost immediately (they sit long enough for me to remove my muffs, gloves, and load the gas/oil) because they are not hot enough to burn anything. I used to wait 10-15 minutes when they were stock because the mufflers were so hot.

People saw ported saws need better oil than they did stock, but I don't think so. Every saw should have good oil to start with, but how do you say what oil is better when people use them so many different ways? Some guys mix as directed, some mix rich, some mix really rich. Then you have tuning. So many saws are tuned rich, or super rich, which builds carbon, and then they say "xyz oil builds carbon, so I switched to abc oil". I mix 50:1 and tune for slight burble, and I keep my chains sharp and my carb tuned. If you tune in the 90° heat of summer and then run the saw in freezing temps, it will run lean. Tune it every time you take it out. Sometimes I end up tuning 3-4 times per trip because of humidity or temp changes.

For the most part, oil is oil, and as long as you use it properly it should work. Yeah, there's cheap oil and expensive oil, but price rarely has anything to do with real quality (at least that's what I have learned). Perceived quality is what most people have experience with, because that is what marketing is focused on. If it looks good, it sells. That's why people don't usually steal ugly stuff.

I say, pick an oil and use it as specified and properly tuned. You shouldn't have any trouble. Don't over mix trying to outsmart the label or the engineers. If straight castor bean oil works, then more refined (synthetic) oil will be just fine. I have been following the label for over 20 years with great results. My little oil bottles say "replaces all mix ratios including: 50:1, 40:1, 32:1". If I have a problem, I will contact the company and let them know. It says it exceeds jaso FD, so I feel pretty confident in the quality when combined with my many years of experience using the same oil with excellent results. It mixes quickly and stays mixed and has stabilizers for storage.

If stihl doubles their warranty with their oil, then it should be pretty good oil. Use too much of any oil and you will build carbon.

 

[Matt93eg]

I didn't know that if the oil ratio goes higher (ie from 50:1 to 32:1) you could be putting more strain on your chainsaw because it will be running hotter. I thought I was being kinder to my saw by having extra oil in the gas. But too much oil could have the opposite effect. It puts added stress on the saw.

So, there must be a sweet spot (40:1, 45:1?). Enough oil to lubricate parts but not too much to cause the saw to overheat. I started being more careful when measuring the ratio.

Where is your proof more oil puts added stress on the saw?

 

[Matt93eg]

Experiment:
Three new chainsaws that are the same. The manufacturer recommends an oil ratio of 40:1. So, we run one saw at a 40:1 ratio, one at a 30:1 ratio, and one at 50:1 ratio. The 3 saws are run hard for 200 hours. Which saw is the least worn?

I would say the 40:1 saw will be the least worn. But what about the other 2? Which one is more worn the 50:1 or the 30:1 saw? I would guess the 30:1 would be the most worn due to putting more stress on the saw (overheating) than the 50:1 saw. I had to reverse my thinking on this - more oil in the fuel isn't really a good thing.

You sure are doing a lot of guessing. Lots of ASSuming going on here.

 

[Matt93eg]

It says it exceeds jaso FD, so I feel pretty confident in the quality when combined with my many years of experience using the same oil with excellent results. It mixes quickly and stays mixed and has stabilizers for storage.

If stihl doubles their warranty with their oil, then it should be pretty good oil. Use too much of any oil and you will build carbon.

Not sure of the oil in question but any manufacturer can claim there product meets whatever rating, doesn't mean it does. Oils that actually meet JASO FD will have a certification number on the bottle.

Or Stihl could be doubling there warranty cause they want you to buy there over priced oil.

 

[qwee]

Matt93eg, I'm just trying to learn about 2-cycle oil/gas ratio information because there are so many different opinions. I assumed, more heat added stress to a chainsaw. But maybe this heat isn't that big of a deal. Maybe getting oil filming the 'guts' of the saw is more important for longevity than is heat.​

I saw this guy's video on oil ratio and saw heat. I thought extra oil was a good thing for the saw. But extra oil causes it to get hotter. Too little oil and the internals aren't lubed well.

I've come to some conclusions: if you want your saw to run faster go with less oil in the gas, if you are worried about the mechanicals in your saw getting lubed run a higher oil ratio. I'm going to try a 3.5 oz to a gallon of gas ratio (38:1?). I was running 32:1 (4 oz to a gallon of gas). It is a balancing act. Logger = 50:1 because time is $$$. Homeowner = wants to do least harm to his saw = 32:1.

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[salecker]

There are saw builders that recommend 32:1 mix
Their warranty exceeds the manufactures warranties.
That is proof enough for me

 

[Ashful]

I assumed, more heat added stress to a chainsaw. But maybe this heat isn't that big of a deal. Maybe getting oil filming the 'guts' of the saw is more important for longevity than is heat.​

If it's like every other mechanical system on earth, the weighting of various detrimental factors will vary with individual usage profiles. The impact of various mix ratios is almost certainly different for one milling lumber versus another limbing trees.

There are saw builders that recommend 32:1 mix
Their warranty exceeds the manufactures warranties.
That is proof enough for me

You think an independent saw builder has anywhere near the resources of a major saw manufacturer, in determining what's best for a saw? How big is the R&D department and budget of these saw builders, versus Stihl or Husqvarana? How much destructive testing can they really afford to do, in terms of accelerated life testing, to replicate many years usage of a saw? What analysis tools do they have at their disposal to evaluate the results?

 

[Nealm66]

I wouldn’t listen to anyone who would modify a saw for more power and then crush the octane with 32/1 🤦‍♂️

 

[salecker]

You think an independent saw builder has anywhere near the resources of a major saw manufacturer, in determining what's best for a saw? How big is the R&D department and budget of these saw builders, versus Stihl or Husqvarana? How much destructive testing can they really afford to do, in terms of accelerated life testing, to replicate many years usage of a saw? What analysis tools do they have at their disposal to evaluate the results?

I don't think they feel they have any great research and development budget.They don't need it as the saw company's have done as much as they needed to pass emissions,and get it reliable enough to get the saw through warranty period without it costing them much.As you can read on the interwebs saw company's are very tight when dealing with their customers and warranty.They find lots of excuses to deny claims.
Where the saw builders shine is they fix the saw if there are issues,so it actually comes from their bottom line. Plus they don't have to meet any EPA requirements when they recommend 32:1 to their customers,unlike the saw manufacturers that have to meet EPA specs,which is a lot easier to do at 50:1
The saw builders are building saws that have more power,last longer,and made to work all day long preforming at a higher level than a stock saw.
So yes that is what i think !
Feel free to have your own opinion.
I work on a lot of saws so what i see reinforces my thoughts.Plus what i read on the interwebs also reinforces my opinion.
I have zero qualms about acting on my thoughts and beliefs. My equipment is rarely broke down,same as my own body.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

If 50:1 is plenty at stock fuel consumption rates, and a saw is modified to make more power, then it is getting more oil because of increased fuel flow, right? So then why increase the oil even more?

I don't know what the fuel usage is for a stock 350, but mine makes pretty close to 50% more power than stock. If that means 50% more fuel, then it also means 50% more oil, which is what 32:1 with stock fuel flow.

What is the tuning difference between 50:1 and 32:1 in the same saw in screw turns?

 

[Ashful]

I don't think they feel they have any great research and development budget.They don't need it as the saw company's have done as much as they needed to pass emissions,and get it reliable enough to get the saw through warranty period without it costing them much.As you can read on the interwebs saw company's are very tight when dealing with their customers and warranty.They find lots of excuses to deny claims.
Where the saw builders shine is they fix the saw if there are issues,so it actually comes from their bottom line. Plus they don't have to meet any EPA requirements when they recommend 32:1 to their customers,unlike the saw manufacturers that have to meet EPA specs,which is a lot easier to do at 50:1
The saw builders are building saws that have more power,last longer,and made to work all day long preforming at a higher level than a stock saw.
So yes that is what i think !
Feel free to have your own opinion.
I work on a lot of saws so what i see reinforces my thoughts.Plus what i read on the interwebs also reinforces my opinion.
I have zero qualms about acting on my thoughts and beliefs. My equipment is rarely broke down,same as my own body.

Understood. But again, why would any of this make you think an independent saw builder somehow knows more than the big makers, when it comes to which mix ratio is best for your saw's reliability and/or longevity?

 

[Nealm66]

If I was going to sell a modified saw to a homeowner to cut firewood, I’d probably want to have them run 32/1 for any kind of lifespan. But why would anyone cutting firewood want a modified saw? I cringe handing one of mine to a ground man even for a little bit. Curious who actually owns a pro modified saw in this conversation and wth are you doing with it? For me the lighter saw with maximum power is absolutely helpful.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

If I was going to sell a modified saw to a homeowner to cut firewood, I’d probably want to have them run 32/1 for any kind of lifespan. But why would anyone cutting firewood want a modified saw? I cringe handing one of mine to a ground man even for a little bit. Curious who actually owns a pro modified saw in this conversation and wth are you doing with it? For me the lighter saw with maximum power is absolutely helpful.

Most homeowners don't even know the saw can be tuned, and they probably don't care that it needs to be because it starts and runs. Most don't care how well it runs, as long as it gets the job done. Why do you think they run dull chains and burn them up? Telling them to run 32:1 might help it live longer, but where are you going to find 32:1 oil bottles? I only see 50:1 around here. I picked up 2 husky saws this year for $20, with a pile of chains, because the guy had no idea how to tune a saw. One runs great after tuning and the other has a scuffed piston. He was happy to get rid of them and said he was going back to stihl. He claimed to be an avid wood cutter, but had an owb, so take that for whatever it looks like.

I don't loan saws out to anybody, period, and I would never let a "tree service guy" get his paws on one. I have seen how they treat equipment, and I consider it worse than homeowners because at least homeowners are using the oil that's suggested and not used diesel engine oil. Tree service guys are supposed to know how to use and care for a saw, but most of them just beat on em and neglect them.

Why does it matter if anyone here owns a pro saw? It's still a saw. Lots of, but certainly not most, firewood guys run modded saws. I run ported saws, an 80+year old friend runs ported saws, and I know quite a few others who run ported saws for firewood cutting. They run better, what's not to like about that? Some of us run 50:1 and some of us run 40 or even 32:1. The saws all run great and last a long time. I know some tune rich and some don't. I like to be on the ragged edge and I listen to the tune constantly. If it changes, I retune.

I used to port saws for people. Most of them were homeowners who wanted more pep. The condition of the saws when I got them told me I was in the wrong business section. Dull chain, worn out bar, crud packed in every orifice, carbon choked exhaust, packed air filter, fouled plug. Porting for someone like that is not doing either party any good. I did a muffler mod for a friend of mine, but no porting. The saw he has is already too much for him and he barely understands how to use it. It's NOT common for a chainsaw owner/user to understand the proper use/care/maint of a saw. Most of them just run the thing and don't give a damn about learning about it.

I prefer a lighter saw with max power too. Who doesn't? A 10lb saw that rips will do most everything.

 

[Nealm66]

Well, I guess my only concern is some poor old guy reading your opinions and blopping a bunch of excess mix oil in his saw with the belief it’s always a good thing. Ask your local saw shop and if they recommend it and will warranty it then definitely do it. Otherwise use caution on all the internet claims

 

[salecker]

If 50:1 is plenty at stock fuel consumption rates, and a saw is modified to make more power, then it is getting more oil because of increased fuel flow, right? So then why increase the oil even more?

I don't know what the fuel usage is for a stock 350, but mine makes pretty close to 50% more power than stock. If that means 50% more fuel, then it also means 50% more oil, which is what 32:1 with stock fuel flow.

What is the tuning difference between 50:1 and 32:1 in the same saw in screw turns?

I don't know what the tuning difference would be.
I tune my saws for the season i am using them,and adjust the tune if conditions change or the saw doesn't run right.
Been cutting wood for over 40 years and have never had a chainsaw issue.
I fix a lot of saws for the area i live in,the ones i fix i use myself for cutting wood before i sell them.
Myself i don't feel 50:1 is enough under any circumstances
I feel it is just enough.I have used Amsoil that recommends 100:1 mix. It is mixed to 32:1 for my saws.
My saws my choice.My body my choice.
See how that works we are all given a brain to use,it's up to the person to look for information to base their decisions on.

 

[Garbanzo62]

Two Comments:
1) A few years back I had a saw die on me for a scored piston. Asked the dealer what might have caused it. Their answer was that to meet EPA regs a lot of MFGs are setting the saws to run on the Lean side.
2) As far as Stihl offering to extend the warranty if you use their oil, the profit on the additional oil sales most likely far outpaces any warranty claims.

 

[Doublebogey]

I run amsoil at 80:1 in every 2 cycle motor I have. So far so good.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

I run amsoil at 80:1 in every 2 cycle motor I have. So far so good.

Any ported saws? If so, what model and how ported?

 

[Doublebogey]

Any ported saws? If so, what model and how ported?

I don't know if you would call it ported or not. My 359 has a large single port muffler that gets the heat out. That a pic with the original. I also ground out the jug because it had a massive restriction between the bottom and the transfers. In the pics you can see what the base looks like, how much more open it is, and I have the bottom of the jug finely scribed where I ground out all the restrictions between the top and bottom. I did not take a picture after I ground it. Those mods really made it scream. I love that saw. It has been ultra reliable for years and it is a VERY strong 60 cc saw.

I haven't had my 572 very long but I love it as is so I will do a muffler mod soon and run it.

 

[qwee]

You've convinced me. Okay, 40:1 (or 35:1) it is. He gets into piston @ 3:55.

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