Squealing welder

[j7art2]

I don't plan on doing tons of welding, just here and there stuff, as a hobby, building things like snow plow mounts, etc. Then again, you have me interested in the sword making now. Haha

I think most general purpose rods are 6011 aren't they? I believe that's what I ended up buying. Will those not work for bed rails? I don't know a ton about ferrous metals, but do some scrapping on the side; primarily copper and aluminum though.

I'm not looking for anything fancy, just repairs around the homestead kind of stuff.

 

[Jags]

You should have a couple of varieties of rods for just the reason that Dune states. 6011 and 6013 are a common staple as well as 7014 and 7018. Goto the Lincoln website for tons of info.

Keep in mind that Dune is one of those crazy (read: awesome) blacksmith/welder type dudes. He can tell the composite of steel by biting it.

Will bed frame have the utmost strength using 6011 rods - no. Will it stick together - yes.

 

[Dune]

I don't plan on doing tons of welding, just here and there stuff, as a hobby, building things like snow plow mounts, etc. Then again, you have me interested in the sword making now. Haha

I think most general purpose rods are 6011 aren't they? I believe that's what I ended up buying. Will those not work for bed rails? I don't know a ton about ferrous metals, but do some scrapping on the side; primarily copper and aluminum though.

I'm not looking for anything fancy, just repairs around the homestead kind of stuff.

6011 is good general purpose wire. I way you could make that rod work with that material is to make two welds, one following the other, right over the top. The first weld will anneal (soften) the material somewhat, and or make all your welds uphill, in which case a single pass would work, or, best of all, if you have a torch, heat the weld area to bright cherry, allow to cool till black then weld.

Best is just to buy a pound or two of 7018.

 

[Bret Chase]

In Mass it is illegal to weld any tire rims for road use.

*welded repair* I believe is the term you're looking for. Every single steel wheel put out by every OEM is welded in one form or another

 

[Dune]

*welded repair* I believe is the term you're looking for. Every single steel wheel put out by every OEM is welded in one form or another

Yes, thanks for clarifying that, although most OEM wheels are cast these days.

 

[Bret Chase]

You should have a couple of varieties of rods for just the reason that Dune states. 6011 and 6013 are a common staple as well as 7014 and 7018. Goto the Lincoln website for tons of info.

Keep in mind that Dune is one of those crazy (read: awesome) blacksmith/welder type dudes. He can tell the composite of steel by biting it.

Will bed frame have the utmost strength using 6011 rods - no. Will it stick together - yes.

The chances of a bedframe being made out of anything more than A36... is unlikely. 6011 would be stronger than the weldment.

I welded for a living for a very long time... til my neurologist told me I needed to find a new line of work because of manganese poisoning. I still do it part time, still D1.1 certified... and still carry my insurance.

That being said... all Zinc oxide will do (from welding galvanized) is make you shaky for a bit... no lasting effects. Hell.... ZnO is put in baby ointments (Desitin), cough drops (cold-eeze, et al), sun screens, and a bazillion other things.. the biggest problem is that is really f***s with the weld pool.

There are far worse things to be worrying about when welding... like maganese, hexavalent chromium, and phosgene.

If I was using a thunderbolt AC/DC... ( nice welder... doesn't have the "balls" of an engine drive... but is much better than a Lincoln tombstone) I would keep around 6010 and 7018 for general use. I wouldn't fool w/ AC rods for the most part.

6013 is "farmer rod" meaning it will do most things "good enough"

6011 and 6010 are pretty close... but 6010 is dc only

7018 is my go to... I have probably burned a few tons of it over the years... its stronger, more ductile than the cellulistic 60XX rods.... and its easier to run. this is the one that has manganese in it.... wear an N100 particulate mask.

also... the OP being a hobbyist... just keep the 7018 dry.... don't worry about rebakes and reclaims... and holding ovens... this isn't code work we're talking about.

 

[Bret Chase]

6011 is good general purpose wire. I way you could make that rod work with that material is to make two welds, one following the other, right over the top. The first weld will anneal (soften) the material somewhat, and or make all your welds uphill, in which case a single pass would work, or, best of all, if you have a torch, heat the weld area to bright cherry, allow to cool till black then weld.

Best is just to buy a pound or two of 7018.

this might be nit-picky... in 3f/3g (vertical) 601X is run downhill.... 7018 is uphill

 

[Whitepine2]

I welded for a living for a very long time... til my neurologist told me I needed to find a new line of work because of manganese poisoning. I still do it part time, still D1.1 certified... and still carry my insurance.

If I was using a thunderbolt AC/DC... ( nice welder... doesn't have the "balls" of an engine drive... but is much better than a Lincoln tombstone) I would keep around 6010 and 7018 for general use. I wouldn't fool w/ AC rods for the most part.

6013 is "farmer rod" meaning it will do most things "good enough"

6011 and 6010 are pretty close... but 6010 is dc only

7018 is my go to... I have probably burned a few tons of it over the years... its stronger, more ductile than the cellulistic 60XX rods.... and its easier to run. this is the one that has manganese in it.... wear an N100 particulate mask.

Took the words out of my mouth about farmer rods and 90 0/0 of welding I do is with7018 only want to do it ounce.Most welding done on farm stuff and wood
splitters and processors and welds gotta be strong. Glad to see you weld uphill
with7018 I'v had welders say only downhill but I do uphill welds always held good for me. I don't have any certification but been welding for 56 years school
of hard knocks you might say.

 

[Bret Chase]

Took the words out of my mouth about farmer rods and 90 0/0 of welding I do is with7018 only want to do it ounce.Most welding done on farm stuff and wood
splitters and processors and welds gotta be strong. Glad to see you weld uphill
with7018 I'v had welders say only downhill but I do uphill welds always held good for me. I don't have any certification but been welding for 56 years school
of hard knocks you might say.

The AWS (American Welding Society) only allows 7018 to be welded uphill vertically. I did mostly structural code (AWS D1.1) work... so thats how I do it.

The only body that has a downhill procedure for 7018 is the US Navy.... and its an obscure procedure at best.

 

[Dune]

this might be nit-picky... in 3f/3g (vertical) 601X is run downhill.... 7018 is uphill

Not really. By running it uphill it will self pre-heat. It isn't pipe, just high carbon bedframe.Do a spark test on old bed frame, most old bed was made before A-36. The AWS doesn't much care how hobbyists run 60XX. That being the case, 6011 is better for beginners than 6010, since it will run on lower voltage PLUS most home buzzboxes are AC only and will not run 6010.
A thunderbolt maybe better than a Lincoln buzzbox, at least the newer aluminum ones, but will not hold a candle to an actual tombstone Lincoln, 250/250 AC/DC. That is a sweet, powerful smooth running machine. ( I have all of them).

6013 is a clean metal rod, low penetration, designed for sheet metal fab, it doesn't have much place on farms, doesn't have much of a home at all in fact, since the advent of cheap MIGs in most every shop.

By the way, when ironworkers do light work, it isn't uncommon to run 7018 downhill for a very flat, smooth weld.
For structural purposes, uphill only.

Finally, don't be dismissive of heavy metal fume poisoning, the effects are cumulative and easily fatal when over-exposed.
One very good friend who should have known better, died so that the rest of us could live. I would be more concerned about cadmium by the way, a commonality in the brain matter of mass murderers has been excess cadmium.

Don't really want to play the who has a bigger rod game, just clarifying. The problem with trying to separate out procedures from professional to hobbyists is that hobbyists can get their claws onto work which can kill innocent people too, such as trailer hitches and truck frames for example.

Best to just give the same accurate info to all that ask and hope for the best.

 

[Dune]

Also concerned about your contention that 60XX will make a stronger weldment than base on A-36.
Granted A-36 is 36K minimum, but is truly content unknown, an alloy created to be acceptable from remelting of scrap steel only,
no new ore required. Since dead soft steel was considered to be 50 K tensile, and since by code you can only weld A-36 with 70XX or higher, how do you figure mystery steel like A-36 or bedframe can be safely welded with 60XX?

I have seen a lot of torn out or broken welds on bedframe. Otherwise, why would I bother typing all this crap?

 

[Jags]

A thunderbolt maybe better than a Lincoln buzzbox, at least the newer aluminum ones, but will not hold a candle to an actual tombstone Lincoln, 250/250 AC/DC. That is a sweet, powerful smooth running machine. ( I have all of them).

I can't claim what others do/don't know, but a true "tombstone" can't be compared to the buzz boxes. Just ain't the same thing. Mine is probably older than 95% of the people on this site. And it is a beast if you want to crank the handle on it.

 

[Dune]

I can't claim what others do/don't know, but a true "tombstone" can't be compared to the buzz boxes. Just ain't the same thing. Mine is probably older than 95% of the people on this site. And it is a beast if you want to crank the handle on it.

Yeah Jags. The misnomer is calling the little Lincoln buzz boxes Tombstones. They are not. A Lincoln tombstone is an industrial grade welder with a full 250 amps DC, the staple of most good ole boy's welding shops since the fifities. Ya just can't kill the things.
Thunderbolts are a nice little compact and durable machine, but don't compare to a real Tombstone.

 

[Dune]

I welded for a living for a very long time... til my neurologist told me I needed to find a new line of work because of manganese poisoning. I still do it part time, still D1.1 certified... and still carry my insurance.

If I was using a thunderbolt AC/DC... ( nice welder... doesn't have the "balls" of an engine drive... but is much better than a Lincoln tombstone) I would keep around 6010 and 7018 for general use. I wouldn't fool w/ AC rods for the most part.

6013 is "farmer rod" meaning it will do most things "good enough"

6011 and 6010 are pretty close... but 6010 is dc only

7018 is my go to... I have probably burned a few tons of it over the years... its stronger, more ductile than the cellulistic 60XX rods.... and its easier to run. this is the one that has manganese in it.... wear an N100 particulate mask.

Took the words out of my mouth about farmer rods and 90 0/0 of welding I do is with7018 only want to do it ounce.Most welding done on farm stuff and wood
splitters and processors and welds gotta be strong. Glad to see you weld uphill
with7018 I'v had welders say only downhill but I do uphill welds always held good for me. I don't have any certification but been welding for 56 years school
of hard knocks you might say.

7014 can be welded downhill no problem, it was designed for that. 7018 should be welded uphill. It is easier than downhill, and much stronger that way. It can be welded downhill but only in certain applications where appearance is more important than strength, such as walkway gate hinges and the like. Otherwise 7018 should always go uphill if possible. Even in the flat position, if the work can be tipped so there is any angle at all, the weld will be better and easier to produce. No decent welder would claim 7018 is best downhill.

 

[Bret Chase]

Also concerned about your contention that 60XX will make a stronger weldment than base on A-36.
Granted A-36 is 36K minimum, but is truly content unknown, an alloy created to be acceptable from remelting of scrap steel only,
no new ore required. Since dead soft steel was considered to be 50 K tensile, and since by code you can only weld A-36 with 70XX or higher, how do you figure mystery steel like A-36 or bedframe can be safely welded with 60XX?

I have seen a lot of torn out or broken welds on bedframe. Otherwise, why would I bother typing all this crap?

because.... there is no need to use a 70k rod on 36k steel. A36 will fail in the HAZ before the weld itself breaks, if done properly.

Structural welding is done with XXX18 rods because of the prevention of hydrogen cracking, higher ductility, and better charpy #'s.

We weld what the weld procedure calls for... My job was to correctly make the weld specified.

 

[Bret Chase]

6013 is a clean metal rod, low penetration, designed for sheet metal fab, it doesn't have much place on farms, doesn't have much of a home at all in fact, since the advent of cheap MIGs in most every shop.

By the way, when ironworkers do light work, it isn't uncommon to run 7018 downhill for a very flat, smooth weld.
For structural purposes, uphill only.

Finally, don't be dismissive of heavy metal fume poisoning, the effects are cumulative and easily fatal when over-exposed.
One very good friend who should have known better, died so that the rest of us could live. I would be more concerned about cadmium by the way, a commonality in the brain matter of mass murderers has been excess cadmium.

Don't really want to play the who has a bigger rod game, just clarifying. The problem with trying to separate out procedures from professional to hobbyists is that hobbyists can get their claws onto work which can kill innocent people too, such as trailer hitches and truck frames for example.

Best to just give the same accurate info to all that ask and hope for the best.

I am not dismissive of heavy metal fume poisoning. Cadmium is extremely toxic to the body, I am pointing that Zinc Oxide, which is what you get from welding HD galvanized is not, under most circumstances, a long term cumulative poison.

I suffer from manganese poisoning... from welding with 7018 for so long. it has wrecked my nerves, causing me to find a different course for my life. I still do it part time... because I can make a decent amount of money in relatively short time... with long times between to heal.

 

[Whitepine2]

Yeah Jags. The misnomer is calling the little Lincoln buzz boxes Tombstones. They are not. A Lincoln tombstone is an industrial grade welder with a full 250 amps DC, the staple of most good ole boy's welding shops since the fifities. Ya just can't kill the things.
Thunderbolts are a nice little compact and durable machine, but don't compare to a real Tombstone.

We always called the small buzz boxes tombstone and the bigger 250 amp AC-DC a
Dog House. I have both an older 250 and love it cost $95 at auction

 

[Dune]

I am not dismissive of heavy metal fume poisoning. Cadmium is extremely toxic to the body, I am pointing that Zinc Oxide, which is what you get from welding HD galvanized is not, under most circumstances, a long term cumulative poison.

I suffer from manganese poisoning... from welding with 7018 for so long. it has wrecked my nerves, causing me to find a different course for my life. I still do it part time... because I can make a decent amount of money in relatively short time... with long times between to heal.

That sucks. It is a hard field to get out of. I have been trying for years myself. I finally burned out my eye sight at the end of the rod distance from my face. I can only weld with about 3x magnification now. Otherwise I can see fine, except in the dark.

RIP Jim "Paw Paw" Wilson
A sad loss for all smiths.

Jim Wilson was hospitalized on May 8th for Metal Fume Fever, after burning off heavy galvanizing from some steel pipe. It developed into double pneumonia, and Jim sadly passed away Friday, May 13th 2005.

His second to last post on anvilfire.com, reads as such:
"It was almost funny last night. Sheri was talking to our daughter (LPN) and her comment was, "I'm on my way!" Like many medical personnell, she doesn't trust anyones diagnosis but her own.

After determing that all my vitals (except temperature {102} and blood pressure {109/59}) were within normal limits and that there was no pneumonia she and her mother made me go to bed. While I was laying there, I suddenly remembered burning off the pipe, and called out to Avis, "Avis, go on line and check out the symptomology for metal fume fever!"

Shortly she came storming into the bedroom, saying, "You nailed it daddy, what the HELL have you been doing?!?"

The conversation deteriorated a good bit after that.

She's not afraid to chew daddy's butt. (wry grin) She said what made it worse was that I KNEW better!"

His final post was like most of his others, helping a younger smith do something better


http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28748

 

[Dune]

because.... there is no need to use a 70k rod on 36k steel. A36 will fail in the HAZ before the weld itself breaks, if done properly.

Structural welding is done with XXX18 rods because of the prevention of hydrogen cracking, higher ductility, and better charpy #'s.

We weld what the weld procedure calls for... My job was to correctly make the weld specified.

That's great but what if the steel is hardened 1085? That is why you need 7018.

 

[j7art2]

you guys are speaking another language to me... (now I know how others feel when I talk guns. lol)

Something interesting (or maybe not?) is that my welder is set up for DC right now, and when I bought some 6013 rods initially, I was unable to strike an arc with them. I ended up taking them back. I was able to strike an arc no problem with using my cast iron rods I had, welding cast iron. I bought another box of rods, but haven't tried them out yet. Are there certain rods that only work on AC and not on DC? Mine's setup for DC, and I hear it's better overall, so I have no need to change it.

Again, I'm just a hobbiest homesteader, not a professional welder. My welds aren't going to look good, nor do I expect them to be. lol

It's funny you guys mention 6013 being 'farmer rod'. My buddy who taught me to weld is a 5th generation farmer, and he said he uses 6013 to weld virtually EVERYTHING, including tractor frames. All of my welding equipment is stored in my barn, which is dry, but is exposed to whatever moisture is in the air.

 

[Jags]

6013 is what was handed to me when I was 11 years old trying to make my first "go-cart" out of an old lawn tractor.

Edit: Much of my log splitters (both) are stuck together with 6013 - not including the wedge itself. The wedge being a harder material was welded with 7018 because of the low hydrogen properties of the rod.

No joking - check out the Lincoln welder website. Lots of good stuff there.

 

[Dune]

Jags and his freaking 6013.

You did well to return them (IMHO).

Yes, different rods/different current.
If you could choose only one? Likely DC since it allows the use of 7018, stainless steel, nickel, etc.
However, 6011 (farmer AND FISHERMAN rod (things get rusty on the ocean) runs best on AC, for which it is designed.

6011/10 are your general purpose rods, easy to run, easy to learn, all position, poor fitup, dirty, rusty metal etc, BUT you will not get the specific advantage of 6011 over 6010 (lower voltage flow, or less overall heat input, important when welding thin sections, especially with poor fit up) from DC. Alternating current allows for faster freezing of the weld puddle, an important characteristic of 6011.

Like Jags said, the Lincoln website will take the mystery out of rods, (though you could also search for my primer on welding rods in this forum...no, not as informative as the Lincoln site, but geared towards the beginner hobby/farmer type welder.)

 

[Jags]

Jags and his freaking 6013.

I can weld two blocks of wood together with that stuff.

 

[Bret Chase]

That sucks. It is a hard field to get out of. I have been trying for years myself. I finally burned out my eye sight at the end of the rod distance from my face. I can only weld with about 3x magnification now. Otherwise I can see fine, except in the dark.

burning off heavy galvanizing from some steel pipe.

this may have been the problem... esp if the coating was galvalume (Al + Zn) and not plain zinc.

 

[Bret Chase]

I can weld two blocks of wood together with that stuff.

I can weld together steel and Aluminum.... buuuuut the cops always show up