Soapstone and Water Heating Considerations on Buying a Wood Stove

[aaronmckeon]

When you say in an island what exactly do you mean?

It will be located next to a strip of countertop located in the middle of the room, but there will be adequate clearances around it. The intent was to make a fixture in the kitchen but keep it centrally located to maximize efficiency of heating. Because it will be in the middle of the room I'd like to maintain visibility across the cookstove.

- Aaron

 

[SpaceBus]

Yes, or just buy a regular oven like the rest of us.

I still have my electric range oven if I ever need it, but I really enjoy cooking with wood.

 

[begreen]

Different experiences with different houses are relative. You can have the same stove in two different houses on the same block and get different results. That's why I ask, what is the current heating system's output?

Can you heat a place with a cookstove, yes, but with some temperature swing. An overnight burn in the average cook stove firebox is unlikely, especially in cold weather. The Nectre might just do it in most weather with its 1.55 cu ft firebox. However, when one wants a specific temp in the oven, but the house demands more heat, what takes precedence? I prefer control for a cookstove. My cabin back east had a full-sized, 1906 Buffalo Foundry cook stove. I often would use it to heat, but when baking I let the propane heater carry the load if I needed a steady oven temp. And when it got bitterly cold the cookstove could not heat the whole place. I too had a small electric range for backup.

Regardless of choice, I wouldn't depend on the stove heating the 400 sq ft addition. If it is a wing with a doorway, not a lot of heat is going to migrate there.

 

[aaronmckeon]

Hi SpaceBus - So many great things packed into your post, thanks. Here are some responses:

Can you post a layout of your floor plan? Most cookstoves don't have an attractive back side. Are you committed to heating your domestic hot water with the cookstove?

To answer the question on hot water, yes I would really like to be able to heat hot water with this. As for the the floor plan... This is very much a work-in-progress, but below please find a first floor layout. All windows face directly south for passive solar heating, and the floor will be a ~1.5 inch thick earthen floor for added thermal mass and the house will be well insulated. The doorway on the bottom would lead to a possible 380 squarefoot guest suite / in-law, but I'm going to include a spot in that floorplan for a small stove in case heat from the main house's stove doesn't migrate, so I'm trying to not to worry too much about that room. The second floor would be slightly smaller in footprint, about 784 squarefeet (cuts off about where the dotted lines are at the top and bottom), and will also have the same flooring system, along with grates in the floor above the stove to promote convection directly into the bedrooms.

Also, I confess I've been holding out on you guys information-wise and do plan on having a gas range/oven for non-winter months BUT that being said I still want the cookstove because, well, I really want to cook on a woodstove and also because I want us to a be able to be fully off grid if conditions ever warrant. The grey square on the layout below shows the footprint of the Nectre 550 (including clearances).

PS - My backside isn't that pretty either. I'm not going to get hung up on that at the moment.

Something to consider for full time heating would be a unit like the Tim Sistem North Hydro. This unit is a cookstove and hydronic heater in one system and could possibly heat your whole house and still work for cooking.

Looks great - I'll dig into this option further when I have some more time to dig into the details. That being said, I noticed the firebox is only 1.37 cubic feet. The Nectre, which started this whole conversation, has 1.55 and I thought you were all suggesting I needed to be higher than this. So I understand, where is the advantage of the Tim Sistem North Hydro vs the Nectre 550W?

Edit: If you do go with the hydro, get a lot of thermal storage so you don't have to keep it fed constantly. It would be most efficient to burn it hot and fast when you cook and all the excess heat will then be delivered to thermal storage to keep your house warm when you aren't burning. This could be 500-1000 gallons of water then circulated through radiant flooring heat, panel radiators, cast iron radiators, or baseboard emitters. Radiant floor heat and the high efficiency panel radiators work with low water temperatures which means more heat from each piece of wood.

Can you clarify? By thermal storage are you referring to a proposed water-based radiant heating system? If so, I was hoping to avoid using pumps in the house in order to eliminate moving parts, electrical draw, etc.

 

[SpaceBus]

The reason I mentioned the Hydro stove, despite the smaller firebox, is that you can heat a thermal mass and possibly get around the short burn times. A hydronic wood stove (most are much larger) will heat water which is then used to heat the house. You won't find much about hydronic systems using cookstoves, but there are many folks who use wood hydronic systems on this forum. The benefit to having a separate heat source from the cookstove is being able to use a cookstove with a small firebox. This means it heats the area you are in even less meaning less wasted wood. A large firebox means more wood is needed to get the stove up to temp. You don't always want to put that much heat into your house. With my heating stove and my cookstove I have much more flexibility. Your floorplan really doesn't seem to allow for much in the way of stove placement. A jacketed stove like those made by Blaze King, Pacific Energy, and Jotul could work in your space. With double wall connector pipe and heat shiedling you could get the stove quite close to combustibles.

 

[SpaceBus]

as far as domestic hot water, look here: https://woodcookstovecooking.blogsp...howComment=1569097662802#c6452442020113288763

This is close to how I did mine, but my tank is located in an attic/closet space above the cookstove.

 

[coaly]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't mentioned other Amish built cookstoves from Pioneer, Margin or Ashland. Your counter layout is designed for a left hand firebox, which most stoves are since the firebox must be on the left to be considered a "Baptist Stove". I did extensive research including factory visits, phone and email conversations with the builders before going with the Queen.
The Vermont Bun Baker ended up last on my list since it was the least capable for water heating and cook top area. The Pioneer brand Maid and Princess were pricier than the Bakers Choice which is very basic and a smaller footprint. (All Suppertime Stoves, an ex-Amish builder in Canada) All those cookstoves are made with gauge steel, so heavy duty use (canning) can cause warping or needing repair over many years of service. All those also have smaller capacity water tanks than my choice of the Queen. They have been the most desirable for Amish due to cost and a larger builder than the original Queen by Freeman Troyer that started in Michigan.
Another reason I prefer Amish built stoves is the gaskets used are flat, folded in half and pressed into a slot. They can be replaced while the stove is in use, compared to any that require cement or glue that need to be cold. This was our only heat source, so I also stayed away from fancy glass doors in case of breakage. Glass also radiates heat through the front, and standing in front of a cook stove cooks the front of your legs if they don't have a double wall door with airflow between. The Queen also has a full brick width firebrick across the front to keep cool standing in front. This was a main reason for no longer using a Fisher in the kitchen, as well as a larger cook top, then realized the capability of hot water.
Other reasons we chose the Queen;
1) Oven circulation is counterclockwise instead of circulating top down like most oven designs. They all leave a gooey residue under oven condensing water vapor and soot making a mess. Flames that exit sideways across bottom, up the side and across top to chimney vent stay much cleaner around oven.
2) The ash pan is a scoop design. Nothing falls behind it needing shoveling out. This causes ash to become airborne.
3) The oven interior was stainless with nickel racks.
4) Adjustable door hinges for tightness.
5) The largest water cistern for heating domestic water of any cookstove at 24 gallons. (new Grand is 17)

I believe the new Grand Comfort is the only secondary burn cookstove on the market. It is 700#, 100 lbs. lighter than the Queen 480, and heats 1000-2000 sf compared to the 480's 1000-2400. They all use 6 inch now, my older 480 having 7 inch with maximum heating capacity up to 3000 sf. The new Grand Comfort has a footprint of 44 X 34 with a cook top of 38 X 18. The 480 footprint 51 X 32 with a cook top of 43 X 21.
The firebox is smaller in the 500 with secondary burn and holds 17 inch wood. 480 holds 19 inch.
All the Kitchen Queen stoves are capable of stainless steel water heating cistern that takes 2 inches of cook top and an optional stainless coil in the firebox. These stoves are designed to be used as the only hot water source in an Amish home, so the coil can connect to the bottom of tank to circulate through tank, heating the water faster than only top surface contact. This requires a LOT of hot water usage or it will steam in the vented tank, over humidifying the home. For this reason I did not install the coil (3/4 stainless steel pipe like black iron screwed together in a horse shoe shape). The coil in your case would be connected to pipes rising to the second floor through radiation, without the need for pumps. When mine was purchased years ago none had thermostats, so I added my own. Most have thermostats now.

If looks is more important than function, Margin are really nice stoves, at a price. For a no frills workhorse you can't beat Bakers Choice, for me the Queen had the most bang for the buck and was the most heavy duty.

As far as heating in shoulder season, I build a fire each night. A summer grate is available for even less heat. You can't use the oven with summer grate, but you can cook if the power is out. Always cook on the stove top with lid removed for direct contact or you have nothing more than slower wood stove cooking. We have a commercial Garland double oven, 6 burner with broiler and my wife would rather cook with wood. The oven simply bakes and cooks better since wood ovens do not circulate air to dry food like electric or gas requires air flow around food.
The Queen, unlike most has a direct opening slider that opens into the exhaust vent for starting and summer use to prevent the stove from heating the home.
I don't know if the North Wood Cookstove can do that, but I see it doesn't have a scoop type ash pan and has some cast iron parts. Grate and outlet, which on antiques is subject to crack. I personally stay away from cast iron parts on the stoves I use, since my first cookstove was a cast iron stove and the antiques I restore are constantly in need of cast parts. Steel is just easier for me to weld, bolt, or modify than any cast parts. (And I kinda like Fishers that was the first welded steel plate stove, so it's only steel plate for me. I deal with enough cast parts on steam engine castings)

Here is a short video of the Grand Comfort with developers Joe Anderson from Knoxville Stove Works, Ed Semmelroth; Antique Stoves.com, and Duane Miller, owner Kitchen Queen. This shows the secondary air outlets on the sides that differ from wood stove tubes. (they have tubes on top too) They use a fiberboard baffle on top which has to affect stove top temperatures. The exhaust has to travel above it to heat the stove top. If I tried one I might like it, but moving them is a real hassle.
watch

They are all experimenting with coal including Suppertime and some Amish are using it. The problem is the coal varies so much from mining regions that what is used for firebox design and testing is not what is being used by the customer where the stove is delivered with mixed results. They are not UL listed for coal use.

 

[SpaceBus]

@coaly with my European stove (right hand firebox) even with the smoke going down and around the oven I get only fly ash and fluffy soot. There is a bypass to send the exhaust directly up the flue, but obviously no baking. Eventually I want to build a summer grate, but the glass top heats up wicked fast. Perhaps a Kitchen Queen 480 could heat a smaller house, but I feel like it would be fairly inefficient. One of the few things I don't like about my cooker is the firebox window, it will burn if you aren't careful. Eventually I'll figure out how to make a screen like you find on the Esse Ironheart.

 

[charles9909]

Begreen, I'm interested in the Alderlea T6. I currently have a Quadra fire 4300. Looking for a bigger box and higher output. We have cooked on flat top stoves for years (boiling water, pancakes, frying veggies). On your stove with the warming shelves over the stove not extended can you for instance boil water or do you have to rely on the concealed hotplate?

 

[SpaceBus]

Begreen, I'm interested in the Alderlea T6. I currently have a Quadra fire 4300. Looking for a bigger box and higher output. We have cooked on flat top stoves for years (boiling water, pancakes, frying veggies). On your stove with the warming shelves over the stove not extended can you for instance boil water or do you have to rely on the concealed hotplate?

I looked into dual duty stoves in winter 2018 when our inherited VC Defiant I died. I honestly don't think you'd like cooking on a heater, wood stoves just get so hot. My cookstove, aside from the firebox glass, does not get very hot on the sides. When I've got the oven up to 450-500 df it feels like I'm a line cook again, but for most stuff it's like using a gas range.

 

[charles9909]

Agreed, heating a whole house with a wood cook stove is not a very practical plan unless it has a good back up system and is used to supplement. I like the Esse Ironheart for a solid stove and it probably could do most of the heating in fall and spring, but it would need help in the dead of winter.

What will you be cooking with when it's too warm to use the stove? We cook more and more on the Alderlea T6, but no oven baking.

I'm considering the T6 for it's large firebox and output. Currently own a Quadrafire 4300 flat top the we use to cook on regularly (boil water, pancakes, frying veggies). On your T6 can you boil water with the warming plates over the stove, not opened out or do you have to rely on the cook plate underneath?

 

[coaly]

@coaly with my European stove (right hand firebox) even with the smoke going down and around the oven I get only fly ash and fluffy soot. There is a bypass to send the exhaust directly up the flue, but obviously no baking. Eventually I want to build a summer grate, but the glass top heats up wicked fast. Perhaps a Kitchen Queen 480 could heat a smaller house, but I feel like it would be fairly inefficient. One of the few things I don't like about my cooker is the firebox window, it will burn if you aren't careful. Eventually I'll figure out how to make a screen like you find on the Esse Ironheart.

That's good you don't get any condensing under the oven. I think the old cast iron stoves that removed heat quickly around the oven were the problem. The cast iron plates that formed the side sheets of the oven had fins on the outside to absorb heat and they had to scraped under the clean out with sticky goo weekly. They were also designed for coal that only formed moisture that would rot them out there. Using wood made a real mess but prolonged the stove life.
These newer cookstoves all use much larger eyes than the old stoves, so my only improvement would be multiple rings that fit together as the lid to be able to remove the center, giving the right size opening for a smaller pan or kettle than needing to use a huge skillet or pan over the 10 inch opening. They called it a "nest" since the rings fit inside each other. 1 inch wide rings would be perfect to create a 10, 8,6 or 4 inch opening. A normal size tea kettle with a 4 inch opening is perfect. Tea kettles fall right through a 10 inch opening! Here's a #8 Wagner waffle iron that just fits in the recess of the 10 inch lid. The entire base almost falls through.



It would be so much quicker heating a 6 or 8 pan than a 10 with a 12 inch diameter, constantly for a small amount of food. Here's an 8 which isn't a small pan that sits IN the opening. This works, but the handle gets way too hot and is difficult to pick up so close to the stove top.



It takes a huge #10 to actually sit on top of the stovetop over such a large opening.

A 10 will barely work on a household range. (12 inch diameter) This commercial burner grate just fits it. That is the smallest pan that will fit correctly over a 10 inch cookstove eye! To cook 3 pieces of sausage?



How do others deal with this? Just my pet peeve.

I only load mine through the top. No need to ever open the firebox door. Drop everything in on the grate and never damaged a brick. I don't think I ever filled mine over 1/2 and always have coals in the morning to build a new fire on. Toss it in and it takes off.

 

[john26]

Here is an interesting dual purpose cook stove I found for sale locally. Richardson Twin Spin I would love to see this in operation!

 

[trail guy Mike]

I put a pot of beans on the Princess last night and am having stew for lunch. Also toasted bread on the stove top.
Water is always heating in a pot there also. Good for washing dishes, and in the meantime it adds humidity.

 

[coaly]

Here is an interesting dual purpose cook stove I found for sale locally. Richardson Twin Spin I would love to see this in operation!View attachment 256697View attachment 256698

It's a Fun Fire Fireplace. Go for it !

 

[SpaceBus]

That's good you don't get any condensing under the oven. I think the old cast iron stoves that removed heat quickly around the oven were the problem. The cast iron plates that formed the side sheets of the oven had fins on the outside to absorb heat and they had to scraped under the clean out with sticky goo weekly. They were also designed for coal that only formed moisture that would rot them out there. Using wood made a real mess but prolonged the stove life.
These newer cookstoves all use much larger eyes than the old stoves, so my only improvement would be multiple rings that fit together as the lid to be able to remove the center, giving the right size opening for a smaller pan or kettle than needing to use a huge skillet or pan over the 10 inch opening. They called it a "nest" since the rings fit inside each other. 1 inch wide rings would be perfect to create a 10, 8,6 or 4 inch opening. A normal size tea kettle with a 4 inch opening is perfect. Tea kettles fall right through a 10 inch opening! Here's a #8 Wagner waffle iron that just fits in the recess of the 10 inch lid. The entire base almost falls through.

View attachment 256693

It would be so much quicker heating a 6 or 8 pan than a 10 with a 12 inch diameter, constantly for a small amount of food. Here's an 8 which isn't a small pan that sits IN the opening. This works, but the handle gets way too hot and is difficult to pick up so close to the stove top.

View attachment 256695

It takes a huge #10 to actually sit on top of the stovetop over such a large opening.

A 10 will barely work on a household range. (12 inch diameter) This commercial burner grate just fits it. That is the smallest pan that will fit correctly over a 10 inch cookstove eye! To cook 3 pieces of sausage?

View attachment 256696

How do others deal with this? Just my pet peeve.

I only load mine through the top. No need to ever open the firebox door. Drop everything in on the grate and never damaged a brick. I don't think I ever filled mine over 1/2 and always have coals in the morning to build a new fire on. Toss it in and it takes off.

I plan on having a local metal worker produce a steel top for my stove with a nesting ring. So far I prefer the glass top over the OEM steel top. With the glass hitting 800+ within minutes of lighting the stove I don't think I'll ever need direct fire to anything, but perhaps a well made steel top would change my mind. The removable lid and top flue outlet cover on my OEM steel top didn't fit well and had lots of leaks. With a summer grate I bet my cooker would work well even in warmer months, but I'll have to make it myself.

My tiny firebox only holds coals till morning if I load it to the baffle with hard maple (I'm sure oak would work but I have none), but I haven't tried this with the glass top. I suspect the glass let's out more heat than the steel and that will hasten the coals burning down.

The glass top is also not supported in the middle, so I don't know how it would handle canning. I have put two cast iron humidifiers right in the middle without incident, but it makes me nervous. I mainly want the custom steel top for when I want to can or need lots of heavy stuff on the cooktop, which might be never.

 

[webby3650]

Here is an interesting dual purpose cook stove I found for sale locally. Richardson Twin Spin I would love to see this in operation!View attachment 256697View attachment 256698

I saw that too, very interesting piece. If it was closer I’d buy it.

 

[SpaceBus]

I saw that too, very interesting piece. If it was closer I’d buy it.

I have never seen such a contraption. I bet it's only clean once or twice and then becomes a black drum.

 

[john26]

I saw that too, very interesting piece. If it was closer I’d buy it.

I am tempted to buy it its about an hour and half away. I have been searching for video of it burning.

 

[coaly]

The only way my wife will allow me to have it is if I run Pex through it from my coil to make it functional or let her use it for her pet hamster.
I have a fear of getting dementia in my old age and filling it with Bingo chips.
My stove collection isn't complete without one.

 

[webby3650]

I have never seen such a contraption. I bet it's only clean once or twice and then becomes a black drum.

I bet it’s dirty in spots, but with flames constantly licking the glass it would at least have a nice fire glow at night. The manufacturer claimed over 90% efficiency.

 

[aaronmckeon]

Thanks @coaly for so much added input. Just getting caught up on all the comments. I'm curious if you have an opinion on the Heco 520. After reading comments in this thread and having a couple lengthy conversations with Obadiah's, I was leaning heavily towards the Heco 520, backsplash removed, water coil, porcelain cook surface, and summer grate insert. The unit puts out more heat than I require but with the water coil taking 20,000 BTU's I thought it would work out just right. I also like the automatic damper system. However, the thing that gives me pause is that it's only been on the market a small handful of years and there aren't any reviews to speak of (supposedly because it's all Amish that use it). Seeing as this oven is also Amish-made, I'm wondering if it's also on your list of "Coaly-Approved" cookstoves? Thanks for any added input.

 

[SpaceBus]

Thanks @coaly for so much added input. Just getting caught up on all the comments. I'm curious if you have an opinion on the Heco 520. After reading comments in this thread and having a couple lengthy conversations with Obadiah's, I was leaning heavily towards the Heco 520, backsplash removed, water coil, porcelain cook surface, and summer grate insert. The unit puts out more heat than I require but with the water coil taking 20,000 BTU's I thought it would work out just right. I also like the automatic damper system. However, the thing that gives me pause is that it's only been on the market a small handful of years and there aren't any reviews to speak of (supposedly because it's all Amish that use it). Seeing as this oven is also Amish-made, I'm wondering if it's also on your list of "Coaly-Approved" cookstoves? Thanks for any added input.

The Heco 520 is like a Kitchen Queen 480, but a bit bigger and capable of burning coal. If my space could have accommodated it, I would have a 420. The clean out on the front is nice as is the ability to burn anthracite coal.

 

[coaly]

Heco 520 is huge, very similar to the Queen. Fine if you have a large family to cook for 10 or 12 people. 420 is more the size you would need. When it gets really cold you can leave the oven door slightly open overnight for additional heating. Only do this after the oven is up to temp, which runs between 300 and 350 before turning it on. Otherwise it cools oven too much causing build up. I would stay away from the optional porcelain top. Cooking with wood you constantly slide pots and pans around for more or less heat. You don’t change the heat at burners like a conventional stovetop. The top soon shows scratches. Porcelain can also chip on an edge. A steel top only looks great when new. The first burn smokes like crazy, turns blue then almost black, then keep it oiled. Stainless would be perfect, but it’s a poor heat transmitter. So polished steel or machined cast iron is the best it gets. No backsplash?? Sounds like looks is more important than function. You need a backsplash. You will have grease sputters and a mess on the floor behind it. Is there a guard like the front and sides instead? It would need a guard all the way around for sure.
That builder is the closest to me, and every Amish man I know will stop what they are doing to take time to talk. They feel face to face giving others their time is better than a phone call. I need to check out their stoves closely to give an opinion of build quality which I’m sure is fine and the engineering. Keeping it simple is usually the best in my opinion with any stove.

 

[SpaceBus]

This morning I loaded my stoves about the same time, 0745, and the same amount of wood. It is now 0930 and the Morso is still burning on secondaries with a few more hours of usable heat (small load of fir today for comparison purposes). My cookstove is down to coals and could with 15 minutes of serious cooking if I opened the air up all the way and piled the coals over the grate. The oven is at 375df and could get a bit higher, but I'm just going to let it go down now since the house is back up to temp and I'm done cooking for now. If I needed to keep cooking I would have to add wood or let the oven coast if I don't need more heat than is already in it. Since the cookstove burns the wood so fast and thoroughly I don't use it to heat the house. If I ran it choked down to get longer burn times then I wouldn't have it hot enough to really cook, the oven would definitely start building some creosote and the house would still be cold. My cookstove likes to be run hot and is very responsive to inputs.

Just checked the Morso, I could just barely light a new fire on the coals and it's 1130. Last night at 2130 I loaded it as full as I could with fir and maple, about 50/50, and lit the new load this morning at 0800 with the coals from last night's fire. One time I managed to get this same effect out of my cookstove when loaded to the baffle with maple and set really low. I don't find it worthwhile to put hardwoods in my cookstove.