Let's face it: There's no "direct connection" between some of the posts in this thread and the original question.
so what's wrong with a "direct connect"??
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All this code stuff is making me worried!!
The NEC Code Book says I need to run #6 guage wire
on all of my 15 amp circuits
Wow, I should really be safe now!!
Oops! Wait a minute, if I read on it tells me it is only required
on 120volt circuits running over 200 ft.
I almost jumped-off the bridge on that one.
Sometimes reading things "out of context" can create problems...
My 2 cents worth....
Rob
The NEC Code Book says I need to run #6 guage wire
on all of my 15 amp circuits
Wow, I should really be safe now!!
Oops! Wait a minute, if I read on it tells me it is only required
on 120volt circuits running over 200 ft.
I almost jumped-off the bridge on that one.
Sometimes reading things "out of context" can create problems...
My 2 cents worth....
Rob
I thought 14 gage wire was ok on 15 amp curcuits . If you do switch to 6 gage then are you required to use 6 gage plugs and switches?
I would also think it behoves one to run a curciut past 200' In this case I would have a second sub feeder pallel location to shorten the runs.
But that might be the way I think, safety and convience
Be carefull venturing out on bridges, one never knows how safe they are
I do know wire sizes 8ga or thicker require it to be stranded
Rob I could not find that language in either chapter E 3700-3900 It must be in the comercial codes sections
I would also think it behoves one to run a curciut past 200' In this case I would have a second sub feeder pallel location to shorten the runs.
But that might be the way I think, safety and convience
Be carefull venturing out on bridges, one never knows how safe they are
I do know wire sizes 8ga or thicker require it to be stranded
Rob I could not find that language in either chapter E 3700-3900 It must be in the comercial codes sections
elkimmeg said:
Made you look
This came into play for me when I was constructing a pole building for
our animals.
Oops! I forgot to cut a permit on that one!! :red:
Just having fun & "stokin' up the fire".....
Rob
elkimmeg said:
Where did Steve say this?
From his original post(copied and pasted, typo included):
i’ve seen many posts that say i shouldn’t have a “direct connect” but when my stove was installed they removed the damper plate and installed a 5 foot pipe into my flue. they said i wouldn’t have a draft problem and i don’y
elkimmeg said:
Something tells me 'they' didn't look at the manual.
i read the manual and it states that in the US a direct connect was fine - now i know this pre-dates the current code that calls for a full liner
i'll post some pics tonight and maybe i'll check the flue as well
i'll post some pics tonight and maybe i'll check the flue as well
But the installer even said that you should get it permitted, and you didn't.....Stevebass4 said:
some pics of the flue and chimney
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v173/Stevebass4/?action=view¤t=freewood006.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v173/Stevebass4/?action=view¤t=freewood005.jpg
and a pic of the manual
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v173/Stevebass4/?action=view¤t=freewood007.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v173/Stevebass4/?action=view¤t=freewood006.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v173/Stevebass4/?action=view¤t=freewood005.jpg
and a pic of the manual
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v173/Stevebass4/?action=view¤t=freewood007.jpg
I'll take a swing at the original question; if no one minds.
As said, I think the biggest concern is the build up of creosote caused by flue gasses cooling more rapidly than they would in a fully lined chimney (ie<. 6" ss). This raises the issue of cleaning and the fact that it is more difficult to clean the direct connect method than a full liner. The lined chimney should also draft better, especially if it is insulated. So, the full liner should improve your draft, reduce the amount of creosote build up and be easier to clean.
The other critical point of the direct connect method would be the installation of a proper blockoff plate in place of the damper (that sound was the top coming off another can of worms). With a direct connect and no blockoff plate, there is a good chance that flue gasses could back up and enter the living space. Even with a liner, a blockoff plate is recommended (here comes the can opener again), but the liner itself will go a long way to prevent or lessen the likelihood of gasses backing up into the living area.
IMO, I would line the chimney and make sure there is a blockoff plate in there. I bet the draft will improve and I would personally sleep better wtih that setup.
As said, I think the biggest concern is the build up of creosote caused by flue gasses cooling more rapidly than they would in a fully lined chimney (ie<. 6" ss). This raises the issue of cleaning and the fact that it is more difficult to clean the direct connect method than a full liner. The lined chimney should also draft better, especially if it is insulated. So, the full liner should improve your draft, reduce the amount of creosote build up and be easier to clean.
The other critical point of the direct connect method would be the installation of a proper blockoff plate in place of the damper (that sound was the top coming off another can of worms). With a direct connect and no blockoff plate, there is a good chance that flue gasses could back up and enter the living space. Even with a liner, a blockoff plate is recommended (here comes the can opener again), but the liner itself will go a long way to prevent or lessen the likelihood of gasses backing up into the living area.
IMO, I would line the chimney and make sure there is a blockoff plate in there. I bet the draft will improve and I would personally sleep better wtih that setup.
Let me revisit this issue , and this only applies to an 8/12 clay flue line. As a code official,, I can take the manufactures specs and approve his installation, based solely on
those specs If I apply code knowing the cross- sectional language, it would fail. I have a choice of going either way both based upon witten text.
the permitting issue should have been done and if his inspector passed the direct connection we would only be discussing the merits of a full liner
I think we all agree safety and preformance will be enhanced by a full liner
Here is what I would do. Buy a liner from sources BB did, pull a permit and make it fully legal I don't think installing a used stove will raise many questions after all it was used
and has been burnt in before.. I mean there is a reason steve initiated this post he is wondering if a full liner improves his situation Nobody has told him it won't
Now if his installer installed the stove in a 12/12 flue he should have known better because even NFPA 211 at the time of stove manufacturer the ^" pipe area is too small
even at 3x No doubt a full liner is required and will enhance his situation in a huge way
From the pictures it appears that rake trim board needs scraping and painting ( this is not a code issue),, but from a person that gets paid to replace trim that gets neglected
those specs If I apply code knowing the cross- sectional language, it would fail. I have a choice of going either way both based upon witten text.
the permitting issue should have been done and if his inspector passed the direct connection we would only be discussing the merits of a full liner
I think we all agree safety and preformance will be enhanced by a full liner
Here is what I would do. Buy a liner from sources BB did, pull a permit and make it fully legal I don't think installing a used stove will raise many questions after all it was used
and has been burnt in before.. I mean there is a reason steve initiated this post he is wondering if a full liner improves his situation Nobody has told him it won't
Now if his installer installed the stove in a 12/12 flue he should have known better because even NFPA 211 at the time of stove manufacturer the ^" pipe area is too small
even at 3x No doubt a full liner is required and will enhance his situation in a huge way
From the pictures it appears that rake trim board needs scraping and painting ( this is not a code issue),, but from a person that gets paid to replace trim that gets neglected
elkimmeg said:
you're right :LOL: however i plan to re-side the house and install all new trim next summer
who did BB buy his liner from and does anyone have an idea of the aproximate cost of these
Thanks again Elk!!
- Feb 10, 2006
- 259
I installed a direct connect kit about two years ago, a few weeks before my PE Summit arrived. It works just fine and the draft I got before I actually installed the stove was pretty good. Meaning, when the pipe was hanging down from the block-off plate before I connected the stove it actually blew out a few matches and sucked up a few pieces of lent.. lol. And you can feel the pull as well.
I'm also looking into purchasing a full liner due to better draft, cleaning and better stove performance....
I'm also looking into purchasing a full liner due to better draft, cleaning and better stove performance....
Stevebass4 said:
The single ply one last year was purchased from Chimney Liner Depot. The one this year was from Hart's Hearth. CLD has changed brands of liner kits that they sell and I would have had to pay too much for substitute parts this time to make it work. The lady at Hart's was extremely helpful without trying to do my thinking for me and the delivery was like lightning. Well, at least the part they controlled was. UPS sent one of the boxes in the wrong direction which wasn't Hart's fault. And even with the UPS misfire the whole thing was here in three days.
I tried to do business with Rockford Chimney Supply but that was a nightmare. Member castiron got his liner from them and seems happy with the experience.
Prices are shooting up rapidly but a good liner kit can be had for four to five hundred dollars for a self-installation.
Stevebass4 said:
which of the flues is the insert tied into , i see two, the larger one looks fairly large , is it 12x12? smaller hard to tell , wrong angle. if 12 by 12 then it will not meet cross section requirements so direct connect is not valid install even according to the manual you have , in the picture of the manual , below the drawing of the direct connect it states that the flue must meet NFPA 211. that said, if its outside of the cross sectional allowance , it cannot be direct connected. bottom line , keep going the way you are already , get with BB and get a liner in there. it will be better all around , also , as elk stated , get it permitted after all it is the commonwealth of "mass-paperwork"
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