Hurry up & hand it to me, I'll get rid of the evidence! :coolsmirk:BrotherBart said:Deep Fryer said:greythorn3 said:
:lol: :lol: :cheese: That is absolutely great. "I Demmand Satisfaction!"
Alas,where have all the good times gone?!
"Officer he pistol whipped me."
"What kind of weapon sir?"
"Thirty one hundred dollar bills. The bastard."
"Sir. Is business that good?"
So I'm at the local stove dealer today...
- Thread starter Russ in Chicagoland
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I would keep shopping around. When I was looking for a my stove I went to alot of stores and talked to alot of sales people. It's kind of funny the different styles all of the sales people have. Any ways, pretty much had my stove lined up at one store and was getting ready to buy it. Stopped into a store that I thought was going to be very expensive just to see what they had for accessories and for S's and G's to see how much they wanted for the same stove. Just to verify that I was getting a good deal at the other stove. Started talking to the sales person and he quoted me the same price as the other stove. He then said that if I pay by check he would knock some more off. I then replied if I pay with cash would you take some more off (can't remember actual dollar amount right now), he then picked up a calculator, punched some numbers in and said you got a deal. Point of the story, shop around and if you can wait a little longer. I got my stove end of december and the sales person that I bought the stove from said that sales are slowing down now that winter is here. Most of his sales are during the fall. Granted inventory is usually low at that time as well and they might not have your stove instock. It's a gamble.
Man, I'm loving this forum! Was it around 20 years ago? Doesn't matter. I didn't have internet back then.
Anyway, this thread is appropriate right now as we are in the market for a stove, and I am getting back into burning wood.
I have been shopping for days, looked at hundreds of stoves, literally, and am settling on a Woodstock, either Fireview or Keystone, though my wife loves the Homestead.
I have been to sites claiming Hearthstone will only let them state the MSRP, so email them for a price. Thus far, two have replied with the MSRP! Hmm. What am I missing here? If that is the price and you can only post the MSRP, post it. Why play games?
The Woodstock site seems like these people are "just folks," which counts in my book. I get the feeling Hearthstone is to stoves what Sony is to electronics and MacGregor is to baseball gloves. Money for a name as much as a product. Kind of an elitist attitude, if you will.
Personally, business is business. People are in business to sell product and make a profit. Merchandise sitting on the floor is worthless to the bank pouch. I do not know what the markup is on wood stoves. Regardless of how slim, anyone who wants business should be willing to earn business. If a shop has no competition locally they might take advantage of that. But, this is 2009, in a tough economy, and the internet driving sales worldwide. If you aren't willing to take a few dollars off MSRP in good faith of drawing customers through word of mouth, something is wrong.
I wrote both these merchants back and said if MSRP is their price, I'll go with Woodstock.
Anyway, this thread is appropriate right now as we are in the market for a stove, and I am getting back into burning wood.
I have been shopping for days, looked at hundreds of stoves, literally, and am settling on a Woodstock, either Fireview or Keystone, though my wife loves the Homestead.
I have been to sites claiming Hearthstone will only let them state the MSRP, so email them for a price. Thus far, two have replied with the MSRP! Hmm. What am I missing here? If that is the price and you can only post the MSRP, post it. Why play games?
The Woodstock site seems like these people are "just folks," which counts in my book. I get the feeling Hearthstone is to stoves what Sony is to electronics and MacGregor is to baseball gloves. Money for a name as much as a product. Kind of an elitist attitude, if you will.
Personally, business is business. People are in business to sell product and make a profit. Merchandise sitting on the floor is worthless to the bank pouch. I do not know what the markup is on wood stoves. Regardless of how slim, anyone who wants business should be willing to earn business. If a shop has no competition locally they might take advantage of that. But, this is 2009, in a tough economy, and the internet driving sales worldwide. If you aren't willing to take a few dollars off MSRP in good faith of drawing customers through word of mouth, something is wrong.
I wrote both these merchants back and said if MSRP is their price, I'll go with Woodstock.
A stove shop about an hour from me offers free delivery into your house set down where you want the stove set. I offered $200 under the sticker price on a stove there this past weekend and told them I had a truck outside, just throw it on a pallet and help me lift it in, and I'll pay cash.
The cocky salesman actually openly laughed. An older salesman across the floor came over, having overheard the exchange, and said something to the effect of "sounds like a reasonable offer to me, want me to see what I can do?"
I told him no thanks and took my stack of hundred doller bills out of my pocket just so they would know it was there. I pointed out that in exchange for the $200 I was asking for off the stove, I was saving 2 delivery guys a 2 hr round trip in a 10mpg truck plus the labor to unload the stove. Total savings for them - probably about 5 man hours and $25.00 of fuel...$200 off sounded about right.
Some of the guys on the floor just can't think.
The cocky salesman actually openly laughed. An older salesman across the floor came over, having overheard the exchange, and said something to the effect of "sounds like a reasonable offer to me, want me to see what I can do?"
I told him no thanks and took my stack of hundred doller bills out of my pocket just so they would know it was there. I pointed out that in exchange for the $200 I was asking for off the stove, I was saving 2 delivery guys a 2 hr round trip in a 10mpg truck plus the labor to unload the stove. Total savings for them - probably about 5 man hours and $25.00 of fuel...$200 off sounded about right.
Some of the guys on the floor just can't think.
meathead said:
Maybe they were thinking. They're paying the delivery guys whether they're delivering a stove or not if they're working hourly or salaried. They might feel its better to get the additional $200 to help pay their salaries. They just have to judge whether its worth the potential loss of a sale to maintain the need for delivery staff, somewhat of a conundrum.
Our local dealer charges a flat rate for delivery; a better way of handling it I think.
Why didn't you just see what the older gent had to say... I am a young guy myself late 20's but I am a thinker and think the same way you do and most likely the same way as the older gent. The young guy was probably just cocky and arrogant oh and ignorant. I would have given the older guy the benefit of the doubt and at least listen to what he had to say.
meathead said:
MagnaFlex said:
I know what the older gent would have said/done - he would have gotten me the stove at the price I wanted or very close to it. It's a shame I didn't talk to him first. Something about being laughed at on a sales floor in front of other customers rubbed me the wrong way, particularly since I was standing there with perfectly green money in my pocket ready to make a purchase. It would have been one thing if I was about to get a steal on a stove, but they are priced right about in the middle anyway. I have since called two other dealers, and one came in $100 under them to start. I'd rather give my money to someone with some tact. They can run their mouths all they want when I drive off the lot, but while I'm in the showroom considering my purchase I'd just a soon not be laughed at.
Semipro said:
Any way you look at it, it's 5 man hours to deliver my stove. Will the guys be on the clock for those hours regardless? Sure, but they won't be sitting on their thumbs if they aren't delivering my stove - they'll be getting another delivery or other work done, providing management is organized enough to keep them busy and sales are strong enough to keep them delivering (which I imagine they are if cash sales are being turned down over $200). Any way you skin it, me taking my stove home and bringing it into my own house would have saved them 5 sallaried hours that they otherwise would have given away for free.
If I don't end up getting another stove now, maybe I'll head back there when things warm up a bit, say...oh...April/May. Hopefully the same kid is still working, and we can have a good chuckle over how now he has to sell me a stove for $300 less than I offered him for it before winter started.
BTW, You end up getting a stove Russ?
I have a feeling many stove shops have lofty expectations for this season, but their hopes are going to get dashed.
They probably think the tax credit is going to help them out a lot, and maybe they were encouraged by early sales that resulted from the credit. But the fact of the matter is that the economy is still hurting AND the price of oil and natural gas have fallen off a cliff compared to last year. Consumer credit and consumer spending are in the toilet. Homebuilding also remains weak, and that is an important source of sales for this industry.
The stove industry, hate to say it, is not going to get bailed out by the tax credit, even though the tax credit is a substantial incentive. My guess is that there are going to be HUGE stove clearance sales starting in February 2010 as everyone tries to unload inventory and the stove manufacturers themselves start to panic.
They probably think the tax credit is going to help them out a lot, and maybe they were encouraged by early sales that resulted from the credit. But the fact of the matter is that the economy is still hurting AND the price of oil and natural gas have fallen off a cliff compared to last year. Consumer credit and consumer spending are in the toilet. Homebuilding also remains weak, and that is an important source of sales for this industry.
The stove industry, hate to say it, is not going to get bailed out by the tax credit, even though the tax credit is a substantial incentive. My guess is that there are going to be HUGE stove clearance sales starting in February 2010 as everyone tries to unload inventory and the stove manufacturers themselves start to panic.
Yo,
I posted the same idea on the gear forum regarding a Dolmar saw--when I asked what he could do, he laughed. If he had said, "there's nothing I can do, these sell themselves," I'd have bought it, cash, BUT, as a result, I ended up buying a Stihl.
As for a stove, my wife and I went looking the last three days. Though the stoves we were looking at were all even (list), install varied $500.
I did notice something real interesting, though: all the people I called were crazy high in estimates whereas the people in the store were lower. You'd think it would be the opposite to get me in the store, but...
S
I posted the same idea on the gear forum regarding a Dolmar saw--when I asked what he could do, he laughed. If he had said, "there's nothing I can do, these sell themselves," I'd have bought it, cash, BUT, as a result, I ended up buying a Stihl.
As for a stove, my wife and I went looking the last three days. Though the stoves we were looking at were all even (list), install varied $500.
I did notice something real interesting, though: all the people I called were crazy high in estimates whereas the people in the store were lower. You'd think it would be the opposite to get me in the store, but...
S
I'm actually hoping it's going to be the opposite, I think it will just be a very very late and busy season... Wood stoves are not normally with new home construction especially in my industry of relining. Now if we were talking about gas stoves I would think your definitely correct.
tradergordo said:
It is going to be another lean winter for everybody. The stove dealers are going to do well this fall and winter because the credit makes it an offer you can't refuse. I finally got 6 cords split and stacked last fall so it made sense for me to get a new stove. I used my tax refund and took advantage of a great sale. I would pay a couple of hundred more if I were to buy the stove today. (btw, Woodstock is a great company. They are still offering deals when other's have dried up) My advice: if you want a new stove then wait until spring as you will be able to get a better deal. If you need a new stove, you are going to pay close to retail. There are still those that are willing to wiggle, especially with installation.
In response to your comment about the young salesman, he might just not have known how to react. A laugh might be taken as cockiness but he doesn't know the boundaries of his job yet. Your offer was perfectly acceptable, and the more experienced salesman would have made it work. Your take on the situation might be a lot different than the salesman's. Once your ego was bruised, it was going to take an above average salesman to save the sale. Chalk it up to inexperience. People are critical when they are spending money and it is easy to misinterpret someones actions. I have been a salesman and a bargain shopper with an oversized ego for most of my life.
In response to your comment about the young salesman, he might just not have known how to react. A laugh might be taken as cockiness but he doesn't know the boundaries of his job yet. Your offer was perfectly acceptable, and the more experienced salesman would have made it work. Your take on the situation might be a lot different than the salesman's. Once your ego was bruised, it was going to take an above average salesman to save the sale. Chalk it up to inexperience. People are critical when they are spending money and it is easy to misinterpret someones actions. I have been a salesman and a bargain shopper with an oversized ego for most of my life.
My neighbor and I decided to buy an Equinox and a Mansfield. The local dealer wouldn't budge off of MSRP +350 for delivery - like the internet wasn't invented. We got pricing that knocked a significant amount off MSRP from discountwoodstoves and a place in Ca. Delivery was 160 each. Went back to the local dealer and he asked to see the quotes. My neighbor emailed him the quote and the dealer went to the hearthstone rep and tried to burn the other dealers because they were selling into his franchise territory.
We made an honest effort to support the local guy. He behaved like he had a lock on the sale and was arrogant. When he agreed to a slight discount I really considered going with him as support would be local but he jacked up his delivery rates.
We went for the guy in Ca. He worked for the sale and addressed our questions and was able to close the deal. Bottom line - if you are willing to install the stove, don't be afraid of dealing with on-line vendors.
We made an honest effort to support the local guy. He behaved like he had a lock on the sale and was arrogant. When he agreed to a slight discount I really considered going with him as support would be local but he jacked up his delivery rates.
We went for the guy in Ca. He worked for the sale and addressed our questions and was able to close the deal. Bottom line - if you are willing to install the stove, don't be afraid of dealing with on-line vendors.
Only problem is going to be if you have any problems... is the internet going to come fix your stove?
AndyLupher said:
I think you did the right thing. Not much should go wrong with a new stove. I've never needed service on mine. The guy who's working the hardest for your business and is willing to take care of you deserves your business.
I believe in buying local and supported my local dealer in the past. All I got was a lighter wallet. In the long run he lost out.
jtp10181 said:
If you can install it yourself, you can fix it yourself. A good local dealer is 100% worth supporting, even if their price is a little higher...BUT...to pay well above and beyond what you could get the stove for elsewhere, just in the hopes that you'll get good service in the unlikely event that your stove malfunctions would be a mistake. Chances are, any malfunction will be during a dealer's busy season...and what you get when you call for service will be "our next available appt. is in 9 weeks...after we finish installing stoves for all the people whose money we haven't taken yet...then we will be able to fix your problem...but we already have your money so you can just sit tight"(and who can blame them? that's business). If you saved a bundle, and your local dealer didn't seem particularly worth supporting, I'd say you made the right choice.
I would probably do the same thing (if I didn't work at a dealer). Most of our customers who buy wood products we never see again. You can get the occasional problem stove or customer though.
I have read plenty of horror stories on here from people who bought fireplaces on the Internet and get stranded with some problem or another because either they have no local dealer nearby, or the local dealer wont touch it because they did not sell it. I was just trying to point this out to anyone else reading the thread. Its probably only slightly more risky to buy it online than at a dealer. Not all local dealers are helpful after you pay them and walk out the door.
I have read plenty of horror stories on here from people who bought fireplaces on the Internet and get stranded with some problem or another because either they have no local dealer nearby, or the local dealer wont touch it because they did not sell it. I was just trying to point this out to anyone else reading the thread. Its probably only slightly more risky to buy it online than at a dealer. Not all local dealers are helpful after you pay them and walk out the door.
It's your money. You can decide where to spend it. I talked to several local dealers before I found a good one. He offered 10% off and then helped me put together an installation kit for a very good price (like 1/2 off cause we used left overs from previous jobs). One dealer was mediocre and he didn't have the stove I wanted in stock. One dealer was excellent, and had the best price, but he was kind of far away (2hrs drive). Another dealer practically got into a fight with me, so I decided very quickly that was not where I was buying a stove no matter the price.
There are good dealers out there. You just have to do your due diligence to find them. A good dealer will work to establish a good relationship with you. They want you to come back when you need more supplies or repair parts. They want you to recommend them to a friend. I told my dealer that if he treated me right, he'd have a customer for life. I consider a stove a fairly large purchase. I mean we are talking thousands of dollars here. You want to find an establishment with which you are comfortable working. You don't have to pay MSRP.
There are good dealers out there. You just have to do your due diligence to find them. A good dealer will work to establish a good relationship with you. They want you to come back when you need more supplies or repair parts. They want you to recommend them to a friend. I told my dealer that if he treated me right, he'd have a customer for life. I consider a stove a fairly large purchase. I mean we are talking thousands of dollars here. You want to find an establishment with which you are comfortable working. You don't have to pay MSRP.
Just sort of thinking out loud here - but how much value does local service really have anyway? Look at Englander, the stoves are sold at Lowes and Home Depot, but Lowes and Home Depot do absolutely no service whatsoever. And yet based on the things posted here from owners, Englander bends over backwards for excellent customer service - you call them up, they have people ready and waiting to answer any question you have, and if there is a part that needs replaced, they ship it out to you right away. Compare that to some companies that REQUIRE you to first go to your nearest local dealer, you can't get anyone on the phone direct from the company, you have to deal with a dealer, might end up talking to someone that is inexperienced (seasonal help), it might take them weeks to get a part, etc.
And if your stove is out of warranty, and your problem is "BIG" most dealers probably don't want to do a rebuild for you, they will just try to sell you a new stove, and the cost of parts and labor for a rebuild might be more than the cost of a new stove anyway. Basically if your stove is out of warranty and you can't afford a new one or don't want to pay for a new one, you are going to have to learn to fix it yourself or get by without a stove.
And if your stove is out of warranty, and your problem is "BIG" most dealers probably don't want to do a rebuild for you, they will just try to sell you a new stove, and the cost of parts and labor for a rebuild might be more than the cost of a new stove anyway. Basically if your stove is out of warranty and you can't afford a new one or don't want to pay for a new one, you are going to have to learn to fix it yourself or get by without a stove.
Woodstock is another example of no local service but superior customer service. I imagine one of the reasons they quit using dealers is that not all dealers are willing and able to offer a decent standard of service.
Interesting thread. I would have liked to buy from the local dealer, but they keep a very low inventory of woodburning stoves, and are not very strong on information to interested customers. They order everything from the manufacturers and they show a couple of lines there at the store, but if you look online under other stove sites and "find a dealer" they are listed as a dealer for many other makes. They just order those from the manufacturer same as everything else, and you do your own research. I just get the feeling that they could really take or leave my business which does not give me the warm fuzzies about spending thousands of dollars from them.
I think I am going end up at a dealer an hour away that has inventory where I can see the stove I am interested in and load it up and take it home. I suspect that in such a case I would have more opportunity to talk price, but even if I end up paying the same MSRP I still feel like it would be a better experience than the local guys, I just get the feeling that if I don't want to hire them to install it (for 1600$) on top of paying top dollar, they are just going to basically be a weigh station where the stove gets dropped off in a couple weeks and I pick it up (or have it delivered two miles away for $175) without a lot of support.
I don't feel like they are awful dealers or bad guys, they may be just fine folks, but they just don't seem to have heart behind the woodburning products, I suppose they do better with the patio furniture or whatever.
I think I am going end up at a dealer an hour away that has inventory where I can see the stove I am interested in and load it up and take it home. I suspect that in such a case I would have more opportunity to talk price, but even if I end up paying the same MSRP I still feel like it would be a better experience than the local guys, I just get the feeling that if I don't want to hire them to install it (for 1600$) on top of paying top dollar, they are just going to basically be a weigh station where the stove gets dropped off in a couple weeks and I pick it up (or have it delivered two miles away for $175) without a lot of support.
I don't feel like they are awful dealers or bad guys, they may be just fine folks, but they just don't seem to have heart behind the woodburning products, I suppose they do better with the patio furniture or whatever.
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