So cold...supplementing wood boiler with LP furnace.

[Bwhunter85]

With these negative digits and wind, I have been running the LP furnace for 30 minutes to help bump the temperature up in the house and letting the wood boiler take over from there. Amazing how fast the LP heats the house in conjunction with the boiler. Boiler keeping house at 70 degrees, LP bumps it to 73-75 in no time.

Does anyone else do this to supplement there wood boiler. We've lived in the house for 3 years and still have 50% in a 500 gallon propane tank outback.

 

[SuperSpy]

I just have to refill 3 times a day instead of twice. Either your system is undersized or something is wrong with your boiler.

I do plan on adding storage in the summer however because the unit is so much more efficient when it gets wound up.

 

[Bwhunter85]

I just have to refill 3 times a day instead of twice. Either your system is undersized or something is wrong with your boiler.

I do plan on adding storage in the summer however because the unit is so much more efficient when it gets wound up.

Boiler stays up to temp, 1900's farm house with not so good insulation. Running a Taco 007-F5 for my pump, approx. 100 Feet loop, I am wondering if my pump is undersized for the application. In 20-30 degrees, boiler keeps the house at 75 degrees effortlessly, start getting windy and negatives it has a hard time keeping house over 70 degrees.

 

[TCaldwell]

I just have to refill 3 times a day instead of twice. Either your system is undersized or something is wrong with your boiler.

I do plan on adding storage in the summer however because the unit is so much more efficient when it gets wound up.

Not necessarily anything wrong with the boiler, possibly not enough emitters or the right time for this cold weather. In the big picture sometimes for these intermittent periods it’s just more efficient to stage a second heat source, tekmar has essays that document this strategy.

 

[Bwhunter85]

Boiler stays up to temp, 1900's farm house with not so good insulation. Running a Taco 007-F5 for my pump, approx. 100 Feet loop, I am wondering if my pump is undersized for the application. In 20-30 degrees, boiler keeps the house at 75 degrees effortlessly, start getting windy and negatives it has a hard time keeping house over 70 degrees.

Also, not running the most efficient boiler. Ridgewood 6000, or now the company is called EZ-boilers...LOL

 

[SuperSpy]

Ah yeah in that case it's probably the air handler/heat exchanger or maybe the pump. What is the temperature drop across the heat exchanger?

 

[maple1]

Pump could be undersized for the piping. Is the boiler staying up to temp? Or is it struggling to maintain its temp?

Negative on using backup. My wood boiler makes enough heat for the entire day, with 6-8 hours of burn time.

My old one was a different story - I had to keep the coals right to that thing, 24/7, and even then the oil would cut in some.

 

[Chris Hoskin]

pump is undersized for sure. Swap out for a larger Taco or a Grundfos 26-99. Not sure if the 100' is one-way or round trip, but either way a 007 isn't going to move a lot of btu - especially if you have 1" pipe. Easy and relatively inexpensive upgrade. Let us know how it works out - or if you decide to just burn a little bit of LP when it gets real cold. 250 gallons in three years ain't bad!

 

[Rockey]

Yeah, there is no way my Central Boiler can keep up in this weather. Its 500K BTU but just not enough. After doing the math on the cost to supplement with natural gas ($.52 / ccf) I decided it wasnt worth all the extra effort in this extreme cold and turned on one of the furnaces. It heats up so much quicker and the house feels normal again.

 

[Fred61]

Why would you want the temperature up to 75? A good normal comfort temperature is about 70. The higher the temperature the more difficult it is to achieve. I would be running around in my skivvies at those temperatures.

 

[salecker]

Wow
I can't relive the trouble some have trying to stay warm where it is warm.
I know people that have poorly insulated homes up here that stay warmer than some of the stories i have read.
Some of HVAC guys down south have some shoddy work practices that people are paying through the nose for,and after they have left the homeowner with a pile.

 

[maple1]

Yeah, there is no way my Central Boiler can keep up in this weather. Its 500K BTU but just not enough. After doing the math on the cost to supplement with natural gas ($.52 / ccf) I decided it wasnt worth all the extra effort in this extreme cold and turned on one of the furnaces. It heats up so much quicker and the house feels normal again.

I know you have a big house - but thinking that boiler should have the horsepower to heat it, if the heat is getting from the boiler to the house properly. That is a crap load of BTUs, and if a furnace can heat it up quick the OWB should be able to maintain things.

 

[Rockey]

Somehow, it drops 25 degrees from the boiler to the house. I was going to make a post about it, but honestly what can be done at this point. The guy that built the house had the lines run under the slab in the basement/garage.

 

[Chris Hoskin]

Rockey, sounds like a bigger pump would help. It will increase your losses, but will get higher temps and more btus to the house. Sounds like the boiler is plenty big enough to handle the additional losses and still heat the house fine.

 

[maple1]

Holy wow - hardly any heat is getting to your house then relatively speaking

Likely some things you could do about it - but they wouldn't exactly be quick & easy things. Like re-digging new lines somewhere else, or that along with also relocating the boiler. Tough luck there.

EDIT: Uh yeah, upsizing pump might be quick & easy like Chris said - not sure why that didn't come to mind.

 

[Rockey]

Rockey, sounds like a bigger pump would help. It will increase your losses, but will get higher temps and more btus to the house. Sounds like the boiler is plenty big enough to handle the additional losses and still heat the house fine.

I bought a larger pump about a week ago and looking at the performance curve I should be able to get about twice the flow but Im not sure the pipes going from the boiler to the house can even support the additional flow. I almost know enough to be dangerous when it comes to pumps. I am also having a hard time matching up the flanges to the existing setup in my house. I need to check with Bell and Gossett to see if I can swap out the volute with the right size flanges already on it.

Is it normal to see 25 degree drops? The lines are insulated with some green type of foam like a pool noodle material. I can see where it melts the snow on the driveway when it is warmer out. It just surprises me that it dissipates that much heat.

 

[Fred61]

Pool noodles are polyethylene foam which is not the best insulation. Should be closed cell urethane foam.

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[maple1]

No, that's not normal, at all. The larger pump would just be a band aid, sounds like deeper problems.

 

[Fred61]

25 degrees? You're probably heating the wood boiler with LP.
Could be flooded, too shallow, wrong insulation or all the above.

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[Chris Hoskin]

I bought a larger pump about a week ago and looking at the performance curve I should be able to get about twice the flow but Im not sure the pipes going from the boiler to the house can even support the additional flow. I almost know enough to be dangerous when it comes to pumps. I am also having a hard time matching up the flanges to the existing setup in my house. I need to check with Bell and Gossett to see if I can swap out the volute with the right size flanges already on it.

Is it normal to see 25 degree drops? The lines are insulated with some green type of foam like a pool noodle material. I can see where it melts the snow on the driveway when it is warmer out. It just surprises me that it dissipates that much heat.

Well it is important that we make a couple of distinctions: if you are seeing a 25 degree drop in temperature between the temperature of the water going from the boiler to the house and the return water coming back to the boiler (say, 185 out and 160 coming back) WHILE THE HOUSE IS CALLING FOR HEAT, then that isn't too bad. If, on the other hand, you are seeing a 25 degree drop between the boiler and the house, that is a problem and you are losing a ton of heat into the ground. Based on your melting snow in the driveway, I'm guessing this is what is going on? A bigger pump will help you get more heat to the house, but will also put more heat into the ground if that is your problem. Like Maple1 said, a band aid - but, something you can do pretty easily mid-winter and not too expensive. Replacing your underground lines may be the ultimate solution, but not something you are likely to do this time of year!

What pump are you using now?

What size underground lines do you have?

How far is it (one way) from the boiler to the house?

 

[Woodfarmer1]

I wish now that I’d put a furnace in my new build, with rads and radiant floor there is no beating the minus temps and wind. Have to use the lp fireplace.

 

[Rockey]

Well it is important that we make a couple of distinctions: if you are seeing a 25 degree drop in temperature between the temperature of the water going from the boiler to the house and the return water coming back to the boiler (say, 185 out and 160 coming back) WHILE THE HOUSE IS CALLING FOR HEAT, then that isn't too bad. If, on the other hand, you are seeing a 25 degree drop between the boiler and the house, that is a problem and you are losing a ton of heat into the ground. Based on your melting snow in the driveway, I'm guessing this is what is going on? A bigger pump will help you get more heat to the house, but will also put more heat into the ground if that is your problem. Like Maple1 said, a band aid - but, something you can do pretty easily mid-winter and not too expensive. Replacing your underground lines may be the ultimate solution, but not something you are likely to do this time of year!

What pump are you using now?

What size underground lines do you have?

How far is it (one way) from the boiler to the house?

Right now I have a B&G Series 100 106189. I just purchased a B&G Series HV 102213.

The underground lines are 1"

It is about 125' from the house.

I originally purchased the larger pump because I added a circuit for a hydronic heater I installed in an apartment above one of the garages. When the other three circuits are calling for heat it didnt leave much flow the the 4th circuit I added and during these cold spells it just wont warm above 58. I wondered if it would help raise the temps Im seeing in the house. Right now it is 185 at the boiler. By the time it gets to the circulator pump in the house it is around 160. Ive seen as high as 170 and Ive seen as low as 152. I understand what you mean about the additional losses. The BTU's will still be lost from the boiler to the house, but I should be able to get more BTU's to the 4 circuits in the house, therefor thee will be an additional load on the boiler. It just really sucks that this wasnt done right the first time. I wouldnt doubt that it is too shallow and possibly engulfed in water in some spots.

The question remains: Is it worth fixing?. It would not be easy to get a new line into the middle of the basement. The boiler is about 15 years old and I debated going with a gassifier that I could install in the bottom garage. Then I found out that codes dont allow installs in the garage. Then I debated building an out building. Then I added up the cost along with a new gassifier. If I was heating with propane, I would get it done this summer but gas is very cheap here. Im just not sure the ends justify the means until the boiler gives up the ghost. I wonder if I could pull the existing foam out while filling in expanding foam behind it and hope the lines stay in the middle of the pipe. Has this ever been done before?

 

[salecker]

I bought a larger pump about a week ago and looking at the performance curve I should be able to get about twice the flow but Im not sure the pipes going from the boiler to the house can even support the additional flow. I almost know enough to be dangerous when it comes to pumps. I am also having a hard time matching up the flanges to the existing setup in my house. I need to check with Bell and Gossett to see if I can swap out the volute with the right size flanges already on it.

Is it normal to see 25 degree drops? The lines are insulated with some green type of foam like a pool noodle material. I can see where it melts the snow on the driveway when it is warmer out. It just surprises me that it dissipates that much heat.

Bingo you have just identified your issue.
You need to read the sticky underground lines not the place to skimp.
My system dosn't use 25 degrees on a full run to the house and back,even at -40 the house dosn't use that much heat.When there is no heat load on my system there is maybe a few degrees difference between the water coming and going to the house.
You have to replace your lines with proper sized lines insulated with spray foam.I have dual 1" lines running each way.It was cheaper than running the 1 1/4" that i was planing to use.I asked for 6" of spray foam around each line.I also have a 125' run from my boiler building to the house.I have zero indication in my yard that there is any heat escaping from my lines.
You could run some super insulated lines above ground for the winter.But if it was me i would probably run the boiler in the house and decommission the wood heater.Look to next season and having a better system to burn wood.Now it's not worth your time and effort,unless you like the snow melted off your driveway.

 

[Chris Hoskin]

Right now I have a B&G Series 100 106189. I just purchased a B&G Series HV 102213.

The underground lines are 1"

It is about 125' from the house.

I originally purchased the larger pump because I added a circuit for a hydronic heater I installed in an apartment above one of the garages. When the other three circuits are calling for heat it didnt leave much flow the the 4th circuit I added and during these cold spells it just wont warm above 58. I wondered if it would help raise the temps Im seeing in the house. Right now it is 185 at the boiler. By the time it gets to the circulator pump in the house it is around 160. Ive seen as high as 170 and Ive seen as low as 152. I understand what you mean about the additional losses. The BTU's will still be lost from the boiler to the house, but I should be able to get more BTU's to the 4 circuits in the house, therefor thee will be an additional load on the boiler. It just really sucks that this wasnt done right the first time. I wouldnt doubt that it is too shallow and possibly engulfed in water in some spots.

The question remains: Is it worth fixing?. It would not be easy to get a new line into the middle of the basement. The boiler is about 15 years old and I debated going with a gassifier that I could install in the bottom garage. Then I found out that codes dont allow installs in the garage. Then I debated building an out building. Then I added up the cost along with a new gassifier. If I was heating with propane, I would get it done this summer but gas is very cheap here. Im just not sure the ends justify the means until the boiler gives up the ghost. I wonder if I could pull the existing foam out while filling in expanding foam behind it and hope the lines stay in the middle of the pipe. Has this ever been done before?

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Yeah, Rockey, you are in kind of a tough spot. Poorly insulated to begin with and probably water logged in spots too. chit.

With 15 year old CB, I can't see investing any more money into that system beyond the new B+G pump. The boiler is unlikely to last long enough to justify running new underground pipes.....and if you have natural gas...well, it's hard to make the math work. Once the CB does finally fail, then you can take a look at your options - just burn gas, put in a wood stove, maybe an add-on boiler room off the garage for a new gasifier and storage? Who knows where energy prices will be in five years. Let us know how the new pump works out. Chris

 

[U.P.Boiler]

Sounds like if you can heat cheap with gas your burning wood days are gone. Gas up where I live fluctuates so much it's easier and cheaper in the long run for me to use wood. 2 places to not skimp are the inground lines and the insulation in the house to include the windows. I'm heating 70 degrees in house -16 outside and load 2 times a day. Once at 11 pm to a full load and again at 2 when I get home to rake the coals and toss 3 chunks in.


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