Smoke in house, Country Elite E260 Insert

[Mark8]

Hello, I have a Lennox Country Elite E260 insert that came with the house when I bought it. The insert is used and was installed without a liner, the insert smoked the house up, so about six years ago I called the only fire place shop in town and had them install a liner, unfortunately I am still having a problem with smoke filling the house and also a chemical smell like burning paint. So I put off using the insert all those years and now finally have some time to troubleshoot the problem.

I have been in construction all my life and have installed a fire place and two wood burning stoves and I am very mechanically inclined and have read many threads trying to troubleshoot this problem, but as you know every problem can have many different solutions specific to its particular situation and I hope you guys can help me figure this out.

So here are the particulars:

House is located in central California in a valley up against the foothills, elevation 390'

The house is not tightly sealed very drafty.

Lennox Country Elite E260 insert, guessing that this is the model by internet pictures and a PDF manual I downloaded, I was told a company called Ironstrike.us.com now manufactures this stove under the name Legacy, correct me if thats wrong.

Flue 8" round, protruding up 1/2" from the top, rear portion of the flue is 1/2" from back edge of insert. Square flue connector is 10" wide 8" deep slanted towards the back and will not sit flat on top of the stove due to the 8" round flue sticks up a 1/2" and hits the back slanted part of the connector. Top of flue to top of vent cap is 15 feet, top of vent cap is even with pitch of roof.

6" flex pipe is connected to 6" double wall stainless pipe, not sure if it's insulated. Brick chimney located outside of the houses interior, outside measures 24" x 24" , top of brick chimney measures 16" x 12" , I cannot measure the inside due to the flashing is caulked.

I will be doing this job myself because as the old saying goes, if you want something done right do it yourself. Of course I am not a expert on fireplace installation and that's why I'm here for you to guide me to correct any problems you guys see.

1. First lets start with the pipe, is it long enough?
2. Is double wall pipe insulated between the layers of the pipe?
3. If not, Should the pipe of been insulated on the outside?
4. There is a air vent in the brick chimney at the base leading into the insert location, should that be blocked off?
5. Should there be a sheet metal partition around the flex pipe separating the insert from the brick chimney where they removed the brick and damper?
6. The installer put insulation between the insert surround panels and the brick, is that correct? This is what the installation manual says: Note: When installing your stove with a positive connection, be sure to leave the insulation off the surround panels (flanges) and leave a 1/4” (6mm) airspace insulation off the surround panels and the facing of your fireplace.
7. Is that the correct type and size flue connector?
8. What is the correct way to attach the flue connector to the flue, do you use that white ceramic wool between the two, or just flush with no insulation?
9. The installer used the white ceramic wool because the connector did not sit flat near the back and he needed to fill the air gap it left. I also discovered that the ceramic wool was protruding into the flue 1-1/2" on both sides reducing the flue, pics provided. He used nine self tapping screws, three on both sides and three on the front, none on the back.
10. I can not identify the wood from a tree in my front yard and it was not split but two years old stored out of the rain. The fire starts fine and burns great but you notice the house filling up slowly with smoke, not so obvious that you can see where it is coming from, and when I smell the air coming from the fan it has a chemical smell like curing paint, maybe from the species of wood or I also use duraflame quick start blocks 1" x 1" square to start the fire, maybe that's the chemical smell, should I not use those.
11. The air damper seems to work fine, starts fine with the door closed and burns good and dampers down fine, when I need to load wood I open the damper all the way open, then crack the door to let things settle down and slowly open the door but I always get a small puff of smoke entering the house, why is that?
12. Is there anyway to test if the insert is leaking into the recirculating fan area, as you can see in the pics there is some discoloration and also what appears to be creosote or maybe that's just slag left over from the flue being welded to the top plate.
13. I tested the door seal with a dollar bill and there is a tight seal.
14. There are two air tubes I notice, one in the back and the front, do those need to be replaced or cleaned?
15. I noticed lots of dead spiders and bugs and dust on top of the insert and also a sticker on the flue connector the was melting with glue burning, maybe another source of that chemical smell.
16. The top surround panel also has a black rubber substance on the back, why is that on there?
17. The installer replaced the ceramic wool insulation blanket that sits over the top bricks and under the flue, but instead of using one full sheet he cut three pieces and installed them through the flue. Is that correct?
18. The paint is coming off the insert and the gold is flaking off the door, is that from the previous owners getting it to hot?

Ok guys, work your magic

 

[begreen]

Country stoves are manufactured still in Auburn, WA. Lennox sold them for several years and now they are sold under the IronStrike brand. 15' of chimney should be sufficient, though draft may be weak in warmer weather. The insulation blanket installation is not correct. See the manual for proper installation.

The question I have is whether the chimney was thoroughly cleaned before installing the liner. This is especially important considering the previous operation without a liner. If there is residual creosote in the chimney it may be igniting or at least smoldering. I would pull the liner, then the insert and inspect the chimney very carefully including the smokeshelf and look for creosote that was missed. It's late so wait until morning for others to read the thread, but that is my first impression.

 

[kennyp2339]

Its not the stove, your trying to run a stove with a 8" flue outlet in a 6" liner, its like trying to jog on a treadmill breathing through a straw. Best bet it to replace the older unit with one that has a 6" outlet, or replace the liner with a larger one if the chimney will allow it.

 

[Mark8]

Country stoves are manufactured still in Auburn, WA. Lennox sold them for several years and now they are sold under the IronStrike brand. 15' of chimney should be sufficient, though draft may be weak in warmer weather. The insulation blanket installation is not correct. See the manual for proper installation.

The question I have is whether the chimney was thoroughly cleaned before installing the liner. This is especially important considering the previous operation without a liner. If there is residual creosote in the chimney it may be igniting or at least smoldering. I would pull the liner, then the insert and inspect the chimney very carefully including the smokeshelf and look for creosote that was missed. It's late so wait until morning for others to read the thread, but that is my first impression.

Thank you for helping, the insulation blanket was cut into three pieces, should it of been a full sheet?

Six years ago I pulled the insert out myself and cleaned the brick chimney myself before I called and had the liner installed, as I remember it was pretty clean, there was not any thick build up of creosote just a black color on the bricks in some places, nothing that would flake off, I used a chimney brush and shop vac.

When you call out a professional chimney sweep is he able to make the bricks look new again and remove everything that is black or was my method of cleaning sufficient ?

 

[begreen]

The insulation blanket is one sheet. You want to be sure it is laying flat and not bunched up toward the rear of the stove. Otherwise is will partially block smoke exiting the stove.
H5635 Ceramic Blanket (22-1/2” x 15-1/2” x 1”)

The chimney may be ok. You will have to be the judge of how thoroughly the chimney was cleaned. Did the smokeshelf area (behind the damper) get cleaned too? Is the liner insulated?

 

[Mark8]

Its not the stove, your trying to run a stove with a 8" flue outlet in a 6" liner, its like trying to jog on a treadmill breathing through a straw. Best bet it to replace the older unit with one that has a 6" outlet, or replace the liner with a larger one if the chimney will allow it.

That would be sad if your correct as the fireplace shop knew what model I had and knew it had an 8' flue. Since they're the only fireplace shop in town Most likely they sold this stove to the original owner when it was new and also still sell this model at their store. If your correct they just cost me a lot of money because I cannot afford a new fireplace.

 

[begreen]

According to the manual Country allows a 6" liner on this insert and has a flue connector listed for reducing from 8" to 6" (Lennox part #71163)

Approved with minimum 6” (152mm) diameter stainless steel listed reline system.

 

[Mark8]

The insulation blanket is one sheet. You want to be sure it is laying flat and not bunched up toward the rear of the stove. Otherwise is will partially block smoke exiting the stove.
H5635 Ceramic Blanket (22-1/2” x 15-1/2” x 1”)

The chimney may be ok. You will have to be the judge of how thoroughly the chimney was cleaned. Did the smokeshelf area (behind the damper) get cleaned too? Is the liner insulated?

Yes I cleaned behind the smoke shelf, but I have no reference as to how clean a professional can get the bricks, I removed the damper and remember scrubbing everything with a wire brush and shop vac, another thing that made me mad is when the installers jack hammered out the bricks to make room for the liner they discarded all the broken bricks and dust behind the smoke shelf, why they were outside installing the pipe I removed all the broken bricks and shop vac all the concrete dust that right there told me who I was dealing with.

 

[Mark8]

According to the manual Country allows a 6" liner on this insert and has a flue connector listed for reducing from 8" to 6" (Lennox part #71163)

Approved with minimum 6” (152mm) diameter stainless steel listed reline system.

Yes I saw that reducer in the installation manual. I also don't know if they insulated the liner, I would have to pull the insert out or remove the vent flashing to check, is the insulation just fiberglass wrapped on the outside?

 

[begreen]

No, fiberglass is not used for liner insulation. Typically kaowool, ceramic insulation is used. You may be able to take a mirror and flashlight to look up the chimney and see if it is bare or if it has an insulation wrapper.

 

[Mark8]

No, fiberglass is not used for liner insulation. Typically kaowool, ceramic insulation is used. You may be able to take a mirror and flashlight to look up the chimney and see if it is bare or if it has an insulation wrapper.

Ok thanks I will do that and report back. When you have time could you reread my original post and address all my questions.

 

[Mark8]

The flexible pipe is definitely not wrapped, it's very difficult to get a mirror at the right angle in such a tight area, I'm not 100% sure but I think the pipe is not wrapped.

Here is a pic of the smokeshelf, does that look to dirty, I used a wire brush when I cleaned it and the black did not come off.

 

[begreen]

Just a theory, but if there is residue, then insulating the liner will isolate the hot sides of the liner from any residue in the chimney. By code it probably should be insulated anyway and this would also improve draft. As long as there is room in the chimney, the existing liner could be pulled, wrapped properly and then reinstalled. A block off-plate will help keep the insert warmer, but in a milder climate the difference may not be as notable. It would most likely not help with the smokey smell.

 

[Mark8]

Just a theory, but if there is residue, then insulating the liner will isolate the hot sides of the liner from any residue in the chimney. By code it probably should be insulated anyway and this would also improve draft. As long as there is room in the chimney, the existing liner could be pulled, wrapped properly and then reinstalled. A block off-plate will help keep the insert warmer, but in a milder climate the difference may not be as notable. It would most likely not help with the smokey smell.

So the residue in the chimney is heating up and putting out this smell, and because the chimney is blocked off at the top the smell has no where else to go but into the house.

Do you have any idea why a business that has been selling fireplaces in this town for over thirty years with the same owner would install a liner without insulation, or not install a fireplace properly.

 

[begreen]

So the residue in the chimney is heating up and putting out this smell, and because the chimney is blocked off at the top the smell has no where else to go but into the house.

That's my guess. Lots of liners are installed without insulation. It's often done to keep the bid lower. That doesn't make it code compliant though. The other suspect is the insulation used as a gasket at the flue connector. That is not stock and might have the potential for leakage, but it should be sucking air in from the room due to draft in the liner. You might try lighting a fire and turn off all the lights in the room. Then take a bright flashlight and see if there are any discernible smoke trails from that area.

Is this the first season that the stove has been fired up when connected to the liner? If yes, it could be that the Country is getting much hotter than in the past with the poor chimney connection. Does the fire seem more intense as you close down the air?

 

[Mark8]

That's my guess. Lots of liners are installed without insulation. It's often done to keep the bid lower. That doesn't make it code compliant though. The other suspect is the insulation used as a gasket at the flue connector. That is not stock and might have the potential for leakage, but it should be sucking air in from the room due to draft in the liner. You might try lighting a fire and turn off all the lights in the room. Then take a bright flashlight and see if there are any discernible smoke trails from that area.

Is this the first season that the stove has been fired up when connected to the liner? If yes, it could be that the Country is getting much hotter than in the past with the poor chimney connection. Does the fire seem more intense as you close down the air?

No this is not the first season, I had the liner installed about six years ago and only used it maybe five times due to every time it smokes the house up. But yes this is the first and only burn of this season I have done for troubleshooting purposes.

I cannot burn the insert because I have disconnected the flue connector, the above photo in my first post shows the ceramic wool insulation that was used to seal the connector and it was blocking 1-1/2" of the flue on both sides.

My goal is to completely go through and install the stove correctly, that is why I listed multiple questions in my original post hoping someone can answer them for me. I am looking to find the correct flue connector or modify the one I have to make a proper connection, or any advice to do it correctly.

I don't understand why the Lennox manual would not explain how to run the liner correctly instead is says to refer to your Lennox dealer for proper accessories and installation instructions, well I did that and you can see the job I got.

Do you feel that the insert surround having insulation around it is playing a factor because the directions says clearly to leave a air gap and remove any insulation and the installer did not follow those directions.

When I go to Ironstrike website, none of their inserts match the style that I have, so I am guessing they discontinued that model.

Thanks for your help so far, much appreciated and happy holidays.

 

[begreen]

That insulation blockage in the flue area may have been contributing to the issue. It's important to see if possible, where the smoke has been coming from. I don't think the insulation around the surround is the issue. It's not needed with a positive connection, but I don't see how that would cause the smoke problem.

The Ironstrike Legacy C260 is most likely the same firebox but without the side windows.

 

[Mark8]

When purchasing material and parts like the ceramic blanket or insulation for the liner do you have a recommended websight that you guys use?

 

[webby3650]

A dirty chimney, insulation or no insulation certainly wouldn’t cause the unit to smoke up your house.. I would attribute it to a short exterior chimney, with an 8” stove thats been reduced to 6”. Approved or not, it’s likely the culprit here.

 

[Mark8]

A dirty chimney, insulation or no insulation certainly wouldn’t cause the unit to smoke up your house.. I would attribute it to a short exterior chimney, with an 8” stove thats been reduced to 6”. Approved or not, it’s likely the culprit here.

I never gave any indication that I was on a budget or wanted to save money, I told them I wanted the job done right. So I wonder why in the heck they would want to reduce down to 6" I'm sure there is enough room for an 8" pipe in that chimney.

If it was a short run or the reduction of pipe size, how does the smoke escape the stove into the house?

 

[begreen]

When purchasing material and parts like the ceramic blanket or insulation for the liner do you have a recommended websight that you guys use?

No one site for stove brand specific parts. Most folks go to the local deal or use Google. Here's one. The part number and size are correct, but they list another part for the C260. Not sure why. It's a great price so I wouldn't argue about it.
https://www.stove-parts-unlimited.com/ceramic-blanket-for-lennox-wood-stoves-h5635-p/h5635.htm
Here is another
https://woodheatstoves.com/products/ceramic-blanket-c-e-s260_h5635

 

[webby3650]

I never gave any indication that I was on a budget or wanted to save money, I told them I wanted the job done right. So I wonder why in the heck they would want to reduce down to 6" I'm sure there is enough room for an 8" pipe in that chimney.

If it was a short run or the reduction of pipe size, how does the smoke escape the stove into the house?

Because the smoke overwhelms the 6” pipe. The same way traffic jams up at a lane closure on a freeway. That big boot on top of the stove sure doesn’t help either. Does the stove not have an 8” round outlet?

 

[Mark8]

Because the smoke overwhelms the 6” pipe. The same way traffic jams up at a lane closure on a freeway. That big boot on top of the stove sure doesn’t help either. Does the stove not have an 8” round outlet?

Yes it does have an 8" round outlet.

 

[Mark8]

Begreen, thanks for the links.

Here's a question, when you hire a company that is an authorized dealer for a stove and they install it incorrectly how do you go about proving that their installation is not correct and how do you make them reimburse you for the cost of having to do it correct.

Is that flue connector considered an authorized part for this stove, if not what is. I googled the Lennox party number 71163 and don't see it for sale. Does ironstrike sell the correct flue connector.

 

[bholler]

Begreen, thanks for the links.

Here's a question, when you hire a company that is an authorized dealer for a stove and they install it incorrectly how do you go about proving that their installation is not correct and how do you make them reimburse you for the cost of having to do it correct.

Is that flue connector considered an authorized part for this stove, if not what is. I googled the Lennox party number 71163 and don't see it for sale. Does ironstrike sell the correct flue connector.

If you had brought the issue to their attention 6 years ago they probably would hasve worked through it with you at no cost. And if they didnt you could have complained to the manufacturer. But because you waited 6 years i really dont think you have much recourse. But i would call the installer and see if they will help you out. If they have been in buisness in the area that long they may help you out to save their reputation.