Can you include a situation with two chimneys in one stack? I have a new wood insert in the living room and fireplace in the basement. I just installed the insert and last Sunday, when running just the insert there was a small amount of smoke in the basement getting past the fieplace damper. I learned that it was a down draft issue as the two chimneys are at the same level and approx 10-12 inces apart. I need to extend one chimney. I would bet that some CO, and other nasty stuff would be flowing down into my basement on those down draft days.
Smoke/Gas Alarm Placement
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seige101 said:
Well, if you feel that way, make sure to put a CO detector in your car, just in case. And one in the office. And put one in the shower too, just in case.
How about this, if you are not going to bother supporting your case with even a SINGLE case that shows your point, then don't bother posting at all.
If you're right, which you're not, it would take 5 minutes to prove me wrong.
Consider this - maybe you're wrong. Maybe there is not one documented case of CO poisoning from a wood stove.
Ivy said:
Regardless of the existance/nonexistance of fatalities from CO originating from a woodstove, those who read this thread all have to make up our own minds, by looking at the laws, codes, rules, and recomendations for and against, and assessing the value of individual posters information by what ever means they deem fit.
I didn't come here to prove people wrong, but to add information to aid peoples decisions. My information is not about how many people died, but about how CO can form, and what the Canadian code requirements are concerning CO detectors (Mechanical Depressurisation testing, or a CO detector). CO detectors don't kill people, and CO can exist in a home with a wood stove (Goblins, I'm not certain of...). The scenario I descibed earlier is exactly what happened in MY home, and a CO detector may have shown me that I was having reversal problems (peak level recording on a CO detector, that is) in the time before I filled my house with smoke.
You asked earlier this question - But for curiosity, try to find a stat on how many people have been CO poisoned by an EPA wood stove installed in the manufacturer’s manner (hint - none).
Here is one for you - find a stat on how many EPA approved stoves are fully installed IAW the manufacturers manner - hint - search this forum and you will find lots of them ARE NOT- that is why they came here, to get help with a problem. People make errors, systems degrade, environments throw unexpected factors at us, and we place systems around us to warn us about unseen problems, like CO.
First I'll address this;
"Maybe there is not one documented case of CO poisoning from a wood stove."
Just because something is not documented to a certain level of detail on the internet does not mean it has never happened.
Case in point, I could tell you about 3 house fires that killed people just last year in only two towns that were without question started by a certain brand of electrical panel known to be a fire hazard. You can find all of the stories on the net somewhere, all will say they were electrical fires, not one mentions the fact that it was caused by, or names the electrical panel known widely to be better then Bic lighters to start fires.
I was told by the fire inspector for one incident that the breaker failed to trip and started a fire in the wiring, I asked was it a Federal Pacific Electric distribution panel, he answered yes. He was told of the history and knew well that they have caused hundreds of fires over the years. When I got a copy of the fire inspectors report, and the news story... Neither one mentioned anything about the faulty panel, it's history or named the manufacturer. It was simply an electrical fire. I later pushed the newspaper into doing a follow up story on the FPE panels where six local fire chiefs condemned the panels.
Now. Just a bit of little known info about CO detectors. Without question they belong in every home, but, Don't depend on them in any way.
Two things most people don't know about them.
1) They are set to go off only after reaching 70 ppm and staying there for approx. 3 hours. - You could have sustained levels of 50 ppm for months and months and they will NEVER go off. 50 ppm over a long term will cause permanent brain, nervous system, heart damage. They go off immediately only when reaching levels around 250 ppm.
2) The test button that everyone uses to "know everything is working and their families are safe..." ONLY test the beeper & the battery! The sensor that picks up CO is not tested by anything but exposing it to CO in a closed environment. They are also a very unreliable technology. Someone did a test on many models, used from homes, brand new off the store shelves and found that many have sensors that don't work and will never sound an alarm no matter what.
Do a quick Google search for Low Level CO Detectors and do some reading. There are units out there that are much more reliable, of course your looking at $200 bucks, but I think any of us would be more then willing to lay out the cash to bring back someone we've lost...
"Maybe there is not one documented case of CO poisoning from a wood stove."
Just because something is not documented to a certain level of detail on the internet does not mean it has never happened.
Case in point, I could tell you about 3 house fires that killed people just last year in only two towns that were without question started by a certain brand of electrical panel known to be a fire hazard. You can find all of the stories on the net somewhere, all will say they were electrical fires, not one mentions the fact that it was caused by, or names the electrical panel known widely to be better then Bic lighters to start fires.
I was told by the fire inspector for one incident that the breaker failed to trip and started a fire in the wiring, I asked was it a Federal Pacific Electric distribution panel, he answered yes. He was told of the history and knew well that they have caused hundreds of fires over the years. When I got a copy of the fire inspectors report, and the news story... Neither one mentioned anything about the faulty panel, it's history or named the manufacturer. It was simply an electrical fire. I later pushed the newspaper into doing a follow up story on the FPE panels where six local fire chiefs condemned the panels.
Now. Just a bit of little known info about CO detectors. Without question they belong in every home, but, Don't depend on them in any way.
Two things most people don't know about them.
1) They are set to go off only after reaching 70 ppm and staying there for approx. 3 hours. - You could have sustained levels of 50 ppm for months and months and they will NEVER go off. 50 ppm over a long term will cause permanent brain, nervous system, heart damage. They go off immediately only when reaching levels around 250 ppm.
2) The test button that everyone uses to "know everything is working and their families are safe..." ONLY test the beeper & the battery! The sensor that picks up CO is not tested by anything but exposing it to CO in a closed environment. They are also a very unreliable technology. Someone did a test on many models, used from homes, brand new off the store shelves and found that many have sensors that don't work and will never sound an alarm no matter what.
Do a quick Google search for Low Level CO Detectors and do some reading. There are units out there that are much more reliable, of course your looking at $200 bucks, but I think any of us would be more then willing to lay out the cash to bring back someone we've lost...
Ivy said:
Fine i will play your game, there are 2 instances on this forum! Where wood stoves were leaking CO into the house (well one case a boat) and the only reason people were aware of it was because they had a CO detector. Maybe not a documented case of CO poisoning.
There was also a case on the news within the last week. A restaurant had to be evacuated because of CO problems. A heater was malfunctioning. 3 employees and 2 or 3 customers were sent to the hospital because of it. CO detectors are not legally required in commercial buildings YET So yes, offices and commercial buildings should have them. Do they now? No because building owners are to cheap to take the initiative themselves and will not until legally required so.
As jersey wrecker was also saying continued long term exposure to CO can have adverse side effects.
So in conclusion don't be such a cheepskate and take gamble, put in the LEGALLY required CO detectors.
JerseyWreckDiver said:
My first day on the job as an apprentice electrician was a service change, a FPE panel had failed to trip the breaker and the panel was literally arc welding inside. The only reason the house didn't burn down is because the homeowner (little 80+ year old lady) went down, and shut off the main breaker. How she didn't get zapped because there was a water pipe right at knee level under the panel is beyond me. We also had to change out 12 panels in an apartment building, because the owners insurance company was going to drop them if they did not.
Frank - here is your evidence concerning CO poisoning and death sourced to combustion appliances, including stoves (sorry they didn't break out non-EPA from EPA) here (broken link removed to http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/Carbon_MonoxideDetectorSpacing.pdf)
A Center for Disease Control (CDC) study of unintentional non-fire related carbon monoxide
exposures during the period 2001-2003 indicates that approximately 500 deaths occur per year
and approximately 15,000 individuals per year receive treatment in emergency departments of
hospitals (Vajani and Annest, 2005). The nonfatal exposures were found to occur in homes in
64% of the cases and in public facilities and areas in 21% of the cases. Adults over 65 years of
age accounted for 23% of the fatalities, while accounting for only 12% of the population. CO
exposures were not gender biased, but deaths were highly biased toward males (2.3 times
greater). Both fatal and nonfatal exposures were biased toward the winter months. Carbon
monoxide sources were almost exclusively combustion sources, including furnaces, motor
vehicles, stoves, water heaters, generators, space heaters, and machinery.
More important to the rest of us, the report discusses CO detector location in the home as follows (it is a study, therefore research, not code or regulation, but interesting anyways)
Siting of CSD CO detectors should be in every room containing a combustion device. The
detector should be placed high in the space due to the important role of buoyancy within the
source room. If pre-stratification potential exists due to heat sources high in the space
(e.g. heated pipes, solar heated roofing, etc), the detector should be lowered below the
pre-stratification zone but no lower than nose level. If openings exist between the source room
and the remainder of the building, the detector should be placed at the height of the opening or
above to prevent CO dispersion to other spaces without detection in the source room.
The things Google can find eh?
A Center for Disease Control (CDC) study of unintentional non-fire related carbon monoxide
exposures during the period 2001-2003 indicates that approximately 500 deaths occur per year
and approximately 15,000 individuals per year receive treatment in emergency departments of
hospitals (Vajani and Annest, 2005). The nonfatal exposures were found to occur in homes in
64% of the cases and in public facilities and areas in 21% of the cases. Adults over 65 years of
age accounted for 23% of the fatalities, while accounting for only 12% of the population. CO
exposures were not gender biased, but deaths were highly biased toward males (2.3 times
greater). Both fatal and nonfatal exposures were biased toward the winter months. Carbon
monoxide sources were almost exclusively combustion sources, including furnaces, motor
vehicles, stoves, water heaters, generators, space heaters, and machinery.
More important to the rest of us, the report discusses CO detector location in the home as follows (it is a study, therefore research, not code or regulation, but interesting anyways)
Siting of CSD CO detectors should be in every room containing a combustion device. The
detector should be placed high in the space due to the important role of buoyancy within the
source room. If pre-stratification potential exists due to heat sources high in the space
(e.g. heated pipes, solar heated roofing, etc), the detector should be lowered below the
pre-stratification zone but no lower than nose level. If openings exist between the source room
and the remainder of the building, the detector should be placed at the height of the opening or
above to prevent CO dispersion to other spaces without detection in the source room.
The things Google can find eh?
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