Sense Energy Monitor

[georgepds]

"As someone else replied, code allows multiple circuit's to be fed from one breaker. The key thing which is not code is unless the breaker lugs are rated for multiple wires (very rare, darn close to non existent) you can only have one wire per lug on the breaker. So you just run a short wire from a lug on the breaker to a suitable wire nut somewhere in the panel and then connect two or more circuits."

I thought the electric code required each wire nut connection to be in its own metal box

 

[Ashful]

I thought the electric code required each wire nut connection to be in its own metal box

No, I looked this up in the code, and it is actually allowed, but not recommended. Electricians with whom I’ve worked are so against the idea of wire nuts in the cabinet that they won’t do it, and I’ve had one inspector actually misrepresent the practice as disallowed, so I incorrectly took that as gospel. It is allowed, but widely considered poor practice, as breaker cabinets are already too congested and hard to trace.

 

[Highbeam]

"As someone else replied, code allows multiple circuit's to be fed from one breaker. The key thing which is not code is unless the breaker lugs are rated for multiple wires (very rare, darn close to non existent) you can only have one wire per lug on the breaker. So you just run a short wire from a lug on the breaker to a suitable wire nut somewhere in the panel and then connect two or more circuits."

I thought the electric code required each wire nut connection to be in its own metal box

Nope. Nuts in the panel are fine and metal boxes are seldom required either. Plastic is great!

 

[mellow]

Wouldn’t setting it up in any way that it must start and stop more frequently (esp. 33x in 10 hours, at 10 seconds per start) be a great way to shorten pump life and maximize electrical usage?

I’d be thinking you’d be justified in going about 30x larger on your storage tank, such that you can have two long fills per day.

You might be right, this is a new to me house so I will have to look further into that. Right after closing I went to the house to find the old Gould pump had died, when they did inspections they didn't prime the pump first (foreclosure so the house had been sitting for a while) and apparently burned out the pump while it was priming and it lasted long enough to get the inspections done. After that got fixed I found all kinds of leaks in the plumbing, got them all fixed but it was a rough first couple of months. It has a 20 gallon storage tank right now and it has pressure so the bladder is fine, will have to see if I can squeeze a bigger storage tank through the crawl space door.

 

[Ashful]

You might be right, this is a new to me house so I will have to look further into that. Right after closing I went to the house to find the old Gould pump had died, when they did inspections they didn't prime the pump first (foreclosure so the house had been sitting for a while) and apparently burned out the pump while it was priming and it lasted long enough to get the inspections done. After that got fixed I found all kinds of leaks in the plumbing, got them all fixed but it was a rough first couple of months. It has a 20 gallon storage tank right now and it has pressure so the bladder is fine, will have to see if I can squeeze a bigger storage tank through the crawl space door.

A 20 gallon tank is mighty small (typically 5 gallon drawdown rating at 40-60 psi), but something still isn’t adding up, here. If the tank is indeed good, then I suspect it’s adjusted to the wrong pressure.

Most residential well pumps are chosen to be 10 - 12 gallons per minute at rated depth. A 20 gallon storage tank is going to have a drawdown of 5 - 7 gallons depending on specific model and what pressure range you’re running (20-40 psi will get you more drawdown than 40-60 psi). Either way, you’re looking at a typical fill of a half minute, if the system is set up and functioning correctly. Ten seconds is just way off the chart.

List as much of the following as you can figure out, and we can probably get to the bottom of this:

1. Pressure tank model no.
2. Drain well tank and get a pressure reading on the valve on top. Make sure you’re using a gauge that puts the reading in the 25% - 75% on the dial, so it’s accurate.
3. Well pump info: rated GPM at depth and pressure, or well pump model number and depth.
4. Pressure switch rating, at a minimum. If you’re actually able to measure water pressure at switch in/out, that’s even better.

Based on my very limited experience (my own few houses), I’d be willing to bet 75% of wells are set up wrong, which is a crime. You want that drained pressure tank bladder charged to within 2 psi of your switch cut-in setting, to achieve proper draw-down rating. This is pretty easy stuff to get right.

 

[mellow]

I am sure that is probably an issue, I did not calibrate the new pump when I put it in to the pressure tank, I was told not to mess with it if it worked since it is a bit tricky to calibrate the both. I will start a new topic about it once I go under the house and get some info.

 

[Ashful]

I am sure that is probably an issue, I did not calibrate the new pump when I put it in to the pressure tank, I was told not to mess with it if it worked since it is a bit tricky to calibrate the both. I will start a new topic about it once I go under the house and get some info.

Not that tricky, you can handle it! Like I said, drain down tank (usually there is sufficient valves to do this without draining down the whole house), and set air pressure to match the low pressure cut-in of your pump switch. Done.

It’s always best to measure where your pump switch cuts in (with a pressure gauge on the hose bib you will usually find near the well tank), but if not, you can go by the rating of the switch (usually 20-40, 30-50, or 40-60). Just use the lower number.

 

[sloeffle]

I will start a new topic about it once I go under the house and get some info.

If you start a new topic can you please post a link to it. I just replaced my well pump, tank and hoping I have it setup correctly.

 

[Highbeam]

Is this a submersible pump down in the well or is the whole motor up above ground like a jet pump.

My well has four 80 gallon expansion tanks and a submersible pump 200 feet down the hole.

 

[semipro]

It has a 20 gallon storage tank right now and it has pressure so the bladder is fine, will have to see if I can squeeze a bigger storage tank through the crawl space door.

You can use multiple smaller tanks if needed to get the capacity you want.

 

[maple1]

I was told not to mess with it if it worked since it is a bit tricky to calibrate the both.

I don't think I would rely too much on any other advice you might get from whoever gave you that one. Pump needs to be adjusted to your house system wants, and tank needs to be adjusted to pump.

We have a 2 storey with upstairs baths. Running our pump at 20/35 with an 18 precharge on the tank works good for us. It is situational & pump dependant though. We have a 3/4 hp pump running in shallow well mode but it is at about it's limits (likely beyond them going by the specs) in foot valve to pump separation. So trying to get 5 more PSI in the system ups its runtime considerably, relatively speaking. I think I have found every pump and every pressure tank (including hydronic ones) to be set way too high for what I want, out of the box.

I would love to have some of Highbeams expansion capacity though. Wow - that's huge. We could go a week on that in a power outage.

 

[Highbeam]

I was told not to mess with it if it worked since it is a bit tricky to calibrate the both.

I don't think I would rely too much on any other advice you might get from whoever gave you that one. Pump needs to be adjusted to your house system wants, and tank needs to be adjusted to pump.

We have a 2 storey with upstairs baths. Running our pump at 20/35 with an 18 precharge on the tank works good for us. It is situational & pump dependant though. We have a 3/4 hp pump running in shallow well mode but it is at about it's limits (likely beyond them going by the specs) in foot valve to pump separation. So trying to get 5 more PSI in the system ups its runtime considerably, relatively speaking. I think I have found every pump and every pressure tank (including hydronic ones) to be set way too high for what I want, out of the box.

I would love to have some of Highbeams expansion capacity though. Wow - that's huge. We could go a week on that in a power outage.

The huge tanks sweat a bit. This well feeds three homes. I can trigger a pump cycle every time I backwash the iron filter!

 

[Ashful]

I don't think I would rely too much on any other advice you might get from whoever gave you that one.

Agreed, on this point.

We have a 2 storey with upstairs baths. Running our pump at 20/35 with an 18 precharge on the tank works good for us.

That sounds like a recipe for some mighty un-satisfying showers. If you need to run way down to 20 PSI to hit your volumetric requirement, I’d be shopping bigger pumps.

 

[maple1]

Agreed, on this point.


That sounds like a recipe for some mighty un-satisfying showers. If you need to run way down to 20 PSI to hit your volumetric requirement, I’d be shopping bigger pumps.

Quite satisfying for me, and haven't heard any complaints from the other half after all these years either - likely the bigger teller. Guess it depends what satisfies you in the shower , but it certainly isn't an exfoliator.

I really would like more expansion capacity but just haven't gotten around to actually doing anything about it, we've only got a single 20.

 

[Ashful]

Quite satisfying for me, and haven't heard any complaints from the other half after all these years either - likely the bigger teller. Guess it depends what satisfies you in the shower , but it certainly isn't an exfoliator.

I read you on too much pressure, when I lived in the city I was on floor 1 of a 15 story building one year, and I think they must have run that old building on a single pressure pump. My shower would half knock me off my feet, and it was actually a little painful.

When I bought my first house, they had a 20 - 40 psi switch in a Victorian with 10 feet per floor, and an old-school standard Moen shower head with very soft water. It would take so long to rinse while that shower was weakly dribbling on you, that I’d just get frustrated and towel off the soap half way thru.

I upgraded the whole system, and went 40 - 60 PSI on the new switch, and it was fantastic. I remember being able to rinse the shampoo out of my hair in about 3 seconds flat, which satisfied the rushed morning routine of this then-25 year old. It was also great for washing cars with the garden hose, or watering large expanses of lawn from a single sprinkler.

That was years ago, and we tend to remember less as we get older and accumulate more stuff, so I don’t remember the settings of my new well (even though I installed it myself). I’m running four floors off one pump, and that would dictate higher than 20 PSI cut-in, no matter how you figure it.

 

[mellow]

Thanks @Ashful for the heads up on the pump. I finally got under the house this weekend and switched out the bladder tank for a new 20 gallon. The old one was indeed waterlogged.

It was an easy fix. My pump is set at Turn on at 30psi and Turn off at 50psi so I set my bladder at 28psi.

 

[Ashful]

Thanks @Ashful for the heads up on the pump. I finally got under the house this weekend and switched out the bladder tank for a new 20 gallon. The old one was indeed waterlogged.

It was an easy fix. My pump is set at Turn on at 30psi and Turn off at 50psi so I set my bladder at 28psi.

Cool. Depending on manufacturer and model, a 20 gallon tank would typically have a drawdown around 6 gallons at 30 - 50 PSI. So when your pump kicks in, it should probably take at least 30 seconds to fill the tank, based on a typical < 10 GPM pump setup. You can easily see this by running water until the pump kicks on, then shutting off the water and watching the tank fill. It will take longer (by ~2 GPM) if you leave a single faucet running while it fills.

If I recall, you were seeing the well kick on/off in 10 second intervals before, so this would be a good way to ensure that issue is resolved.

 

[mellow]

Yep, 30-45 seconds to fill, I didn't time it exactly but it has made a world of difference.

This was yesterday's usage:

 

[Where2]

... you can only have one wire per lug on the breaker. So you just run a short wire from a lug on the breaker to a suitable wire nut somewhere in the panel and then connect two or more circuits.

If you guys are still using wire nuts for junctions under 20A like Peak described above, you should really check out Wago Lever Nuts. For years, I've used the 222 series, and now I see they just came out with a smaller 221 series (still good for solid or stranded 12AWG-24AWG).

 

[mellow]

If you really want to annoy your wife get a Sense monitor. I get alerts that devices (heat pump) is using more power than usual so I text the wife asking "why am I seeing spikes in the power usage" only to get a text back telling me to pound sand she was cold.

Man do I miss having a wood stove.

 

[georgepds]

Re"Man do I miss having a wood stove."

What happened to it

Here in Northern Ma we are getting ready for a 20 F thanksgiving. It's good to have a stove

When it hits-5F, it's great to have a stove

 

[jebatty]

When it hits-5F, it's great to have a stove

Even better when temp drops to -30F and lower.

 

[maple1]

This has been the winteriest start to a winter we have had for as long as I can remember. Snow - we got 12+" the night before, 4 more last night, and 6-8 the week before. I had to get up on our verandah roof yesterday, it was piled up past our bedroom window up to the main roof line - if I ever have to do that, it's not usually until mid-winter, and only once a winter. Trees are all loaded up & bent over. Power outages, there have been 3 multi-hour ones so far this month. That's more than we have gotten the whole winter, for like the last decade. It is -14c outside right now. It isn't even really winter yet and I am ready to wave a white flag already.

But digressing.... (sorry for the vent....)

I am starting to think about upgrading from our Efergy. Are there other good ones to check out besides the Sense? It has been a while since I googled, did that a couple days ago & saw a whole bunch of stuff that I didn't recognize - suspecting some of it might be of suspect quality?

 

[mellow]

There is a bunch of suspect chinese junk in the market, I ponied up and went with Sense since they have an active FB/Forum with users offering new and good ideas and they listen and are pushing some good upgrades to the firmware.

It is new AI technology that is going to take a while to perfect and with more users the data will help to get it even better.

 

[mellow]

Re"Man do I miss having a wood stove."

What happened to it

Sold that house, in a new to me single story rancher that currently does not have the best footprint for a stove, working on that. Till then I have to deal with the Heat Pump that came with the house.