Seeking Out With The Old And in With The New Considerations

[uncndl1]

Take good look at a System 2000 boiler. Hard to beat as its low mass cold start unit so no standby loss.

I downloaded a brochure of that one but need a better understanding of how to size the unit properly as well as consider thermal storage

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[peakbagger]

You don't use thermal storage with a low mass cold start boiler even if you did tie into a wood fired system, its most likely that the storage would be bypassed.

 

[uncndl1]

You don't use thermal storage with a low mass cold start boiler even if you did tie into a wood fired system, its most likely that the storage would be bypassed.

I guess I have more reading to do.
With the big 5 radiators upstairs and 2 downstairs and all of the baseboard emitters I thought I would need a storage tank.
Appreciate your suggestion.


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[peakbagger]

Plenty of houses much larger than yours operate quite well without storage. With an oil or gas boiler, you can crank up a lot of heat instantly and when you dont need it it turns off. With a wood boiler you cant turn it on and off quickly, there is lot of mass that needs to be heated up and that takes awhile.. The old style systems like yours do try to adjust the heat output to the demand in the house by shutting down the air to the boiler. It sort of works but it creates a lot of creosote and eats wood and pisses off the neighbors especially on days when there isnt heating demand. The reason it pisses off the neighbors is you are dumping a lot of partially combusted gases out the stack into the surrounding air and it can really stink.

The new style wood boilers are designed to run clean and be a lot more efficient. How they do it is put in a storage tank to hold the heat generated by the boiler and then only pull out of the tank when you need to the heat. Since the oil boiler can be turned on and off quickly it does not make sense to heat up the storage tank.

 

[leon]

It would be worth your while to seriously look at a small coal stoker boiler too as you will be provided with lots of heat and all 5 gallons per minute of domestic hot water per minute the year round if you want to make hot water the year round

The only mistake I made was buying a Keytoker KAA-4-1 which is a dual fuel unit-coal/oil or coal/gas instead of a AHS S130 coal stoker boiler

The Alternate Heating Systems S130 coal stoker is small in size but pushes 130,000+ BTU and will provide you with plenty of heat for your home and you can leave the Tarm in place and only burn oil when you need to or when you go away.

 

[salecker]

I guess I have more reading to do.
With the big 5 radiators upstairs and 2 downstairs and all of the baseboard emitters I thought I would need a storage tank.
Appreciate your suggestion.


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I have a wood boiler with storage in a separate building.My oil boiler backup is in the same building.When running the oil boiler it bypasses the storage.
We have 10 cast iron rads in our house,and a unit heater in the basement,there is no difference in the heat from the oil boiler and wood boiler,other than the wood boiler goes to a higher temp. And i have no "outdoor reset" thingy .

 

[maple1]

You don't use thermal storage with a low mass cold start boiler even if you did tie into a wood fired system, its most likely that the storage would be bypassed.

That comment might be confusing. You might not utilize storage when your oil unit is burning but you still want storage to use when burning with your wood boiler.

 

[uncndl1]

Since I want to continue using oil for our heating needs, it’s looking like it comes down to a newer design cast iron non-condensing boiler 3 pass versus a newer yet condensing boiler.
Skill of installer, familiarity with systems, and service seem to factor in also.
I found one comment that stated “a moderate equipment installed properly trumps the best available condensing system installed incorrectly”.
Longevity, reliability, and performance also factor into my decision.
The cost effectiveness of a higher energy efficiency system is not appealing if it winds up costing more in service calls.
When swapping out for new, the old system will need to be thoroughly cleaned before installing a new boiler.
I’ll be getting firm quotes for a new boiler system and go from there.
I’ll probably only be gaining 10% efficiency or so but peace of mind of a possible system failure is worth something.
Appreciate all your comments.



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[peakbagger]

That comment might be confusing. You might not utilize storage when your oil unit is burning but you still want storage to use when burning with your wood boiler.

Thanks, that s what I meant, Direct to the radiators on oil. Use the storage when on wood.

 

[Bad LP]

The EK2000 is a decent low mass boiler. I have both the oil and LP burning models. It is not a good boiler for RFH and it works fine for HWBB and I'm sure it will shine with CI radiators. You will benefit from having as many zones as possible.

I have these piped two ways. Oil has 8 small pumps with check valve on every zone. LP system has a single larger system pump with zone valves and works seamlessly with my wood boiler. Both are using indirect DHW.

Oil system is 29 years old and has been reliable with yearly cleanings minus some stupid fuse issues. LP system in a remote location has also been reliable but I needed to add a buffer tank to the RFH loops to stop the short cycling that was driving me out of my mind.

 

[Dutchie84]

LP system in a remote location has also been reliable but I needed to add a buffer tank to the RFH loops to stop the short cycling that was driving me out of my mind.

What part of the short cycling was driving you out of your mind? I am installing an mod con lp boiler with RFH in my new house and am a bit worried about short cycling. After much looking I still can't really find a definition of how long of a run time would be consider short cycling.

 

[Bad LP]

What part of the short cycling was driving you out of your mind? I am installing an mod con lp boiler with RFH in my new house and am a bit worried about short cycling. After much looking I still can't really find a definition of how long of a run time would be consider short cycling.

It would start, run for 3-5 mins shut off for 3 mins then repeat. Would do it all freaking day. Felt like every time I was working in the shop the boiler was running. Talked to my buddy who does all the HVAC work at another location for me and his reply was low mass boilers and RFH are not a good combination as they cool down to quickly. Told me to install a 40 gallon electric water heater (not wired) in the loop as a storage tank. Now depending on the heat load of the house the boiler will run for 5-7 mins and might not come back on for nearly 40 mins to an hour after.

The EK2000 does a nice job heating DHW and I'm not sure what I would do if it died. Hot water is a year round need, heating the building is not. I do think I'm going to remove the DHW off the wood boiler. As the water cools the DHW calls and it robs the heat from the house trying to make hot water and it really ends up not making any. Can't make 50 gallons of 150 degree water with 600 gallons of 120 degree storage.

 

[peakbagger]

I need to replace my oil boiler one of these years and if I could get deal on a system 2000 (EK 2000 is another name for the same thing) I would.

The hassle with giving advise over forums is every house and situation is like a rubik's cube. A good heating designer goes in with a lot of background and then has to make the right design compromises that a homeowner can afford. I brought up John Siegenthaler previously as he sets a high bar on his designs. If cost is not an object its hard to beat them but few folks who are reading a woodburning forum are going to write the check to have John design a system and pay the installer what it is going to cost to install and operate the design.

My solar hot water system was on line before my wood boiler. It covers my summer heating demand directly but in the winter it doesn't heat the water up enough. My solution was to repair a leaky "hot water maker" that is heated with a zone off my wood or oil boiler to supply winter hot water. I flip a few valves and the SHW system supplies preheated warm water in the winter to the hot water maker. I don't use a lot of hot water so I just charge up the hot water maker tank to 180 degrees with hot water from the wood boiler via a zone when my storage temp has peaked out. The wood boiler is still hot so I just turn on the hot water zone and it heats the hot water maker. I also use SHW warm water to supply the mixing valve so the mixing valve is mixing a high percentage warm water to just a little 180 degree water. Absolute worse case is if I really need hot water immediately my SHW storage tank has an electric coil in it. I just go turn on the breaker and about 10 minutes later I have hot water. Note I do have a hot water mixing valve with integrated anti scald protection inside it. Yes its complex system with lots of valves and bypasses. If I had to pay someone to do it I probably would not but since I DIY, I spend a bit more for fittings as I am not paying for labor.

 

[Dutchie84]

It would start, run for 3-5 mins shut off for 3 mins then repeat. Would do it all freaking day. Felt like every time I was working in the shop the boiler was running. Talked to my buddy who does all the HVAC work at another location for me and his reply was low mass boilers and RFH are not a good combination as they cool down to quickly. Told me to install a 40 gallon electric water heater (not wired) in the loop as a storage tank. Now depending on the heat load of the house the boiler will run for 5-7 mins and might not come back on for nearly 40 mins to an hour after.

Out of curiosity did the LP boiler that you had modulate it output? What size was it if you remember?

 

[Bad LP]

Out of curiosity did the LP boiler that you had modulate it output? What size was it if you remember?

No. The EK2000 is not a modulating boiler. Simple on/off. I don't recall the output in its current configuration but want to say it is 68-70K BTU's.

 

[uncndl1]

Great suggestions.
She’s still working but don’t think I’ll be refurbishing the boiler and burner assembly.
I’m saving up for a new oil burning boiler and will be getting quotes.
I’m open to recommendations on types and styles as there are more than one type available.
I’d also like new circulatory on the outlet of boiler with a purge setup which I don’t have now.
Thanks.

Had our 1st quote.
Called the company recommended by EK.
They said they prefer the Buderus and the quote complete new system installed and old hauled off for $9,495.00
Two more quotes later this week.

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[uncndl1]

She's coming out when we figure how to move 1000 pounds of steel

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[salecker]

Cut up some lengths of small pipe as rollers.Lift it up with a Jack All and place the rollers under it and angle them in the direction you want the boiler to move. Have a bunch the you can keep feeding them in the front as you roll it towards the opening where it is headed.I moved my Econoburn 200 by myself with rollers.

 

[maple1]

Lots of tricks, depends on your situation & obstacles. Dollies, pallet jack. You could even slide it maybe easier than expecting if you get some flat bar under it - steel on steel slides pretty good. Prybars...

 

[uncndl1]

It's in a 4 " concrete pedestal and must make a hard left to get to bilco doors in adjacent shop off basement.
Then up a flight of stairs to outside.

Lots of tricks, depends on your situation & obstacles. Dollies, pallet jack. You could even slide it maybe easier than expecting if you get some flat bar under it - steel on steel slides pretty good. Prybars...

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[maple1]

Turn it into smaller pieces?

 

[uncndl1]

Turn it into smaller pieces?

Thanks! Going to get a company in to use a plasma cutter. These Tarms were made tough


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[salecker]

When i finished building my house i had to get a RSF 100 Wood Furnace out of the basement.I put it in with my backhoe before the floor was built. My furnace room was 5 inches lower than my finished wood floor in the basement.Then make a 90 degree turn down the hall to through the old kitchen to the outside door. I used pipe rollers then too.I had to jack the furnace up with a jack all to level it up with the floor then installed the pipe rollers.I had to remove the door and frame to get enough room to get through the basement door. Once outside i used my wrecker to winch it up out of the stairwell outside the basement.I wanted it out in one piece so i could sell or reuse the RSF 100.

 

[uncndl1]

Thanks! Going to get a company in to use a plasma cutter. These Tarms were made tough


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It's half price to jack ...jimmy..and roll out....and the steel will he recycled..great advice and guidance.
Thanks!

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