Sad story - Wood Stove Fire - No Insurance

[begreen]

Based on the article I see no mention of a code violation. The evidence appears to point to negligence - wood stacked too close to the stove. If this was a highly radiant, pre-EPA stove, that means no combustible within a 3ft radius of the stove. But the real mistake they made was not installing an alternate form of heat. They say they had about $50K invested in remodeling the house but couldn't spend $500 on installing a few baseboard heaters? If the insurance companies keep telling you that you need a primary heating system other than wood, then comply.

 

[begreen]

Holler needs to do some serious fact checking. The fact is NO, not "...some sort of code..." for most wood stove installs. The only "codes" in most rural states are those that the Fire Marshal uses to determine cause of fire. And the install specs' "codes" are for stove manufacturers' legal depts and engineers for safety.
And NO, certainly no "code enforcement" if there are no codes. The nuns in school would say: " Common sense is not so common."
The truth is that most insurance companies don't bother to do an on site inspection either. Fact.
What's "irc" ? It's out of my league.

What states rural or other have no fire codes? Certainly not Vermont.
http://firesafety.vermont.gov/buildingcode/codes

 

[bholler]

Holler needs to do some serious fact checking. The fact is NO, not "...some sort of code..." for most wood stove installs. The only "codes" in most rural states are those that the Fire Marshal uses to determine cause of fire. And the install specs' "codes" are for stove manufacturers' legal depts and engineers for safety.
And NO, certainly no "code enforcement" if there are no codes. The nuns in school would say: " Common sense is not so common."
The truth is that most insurance companies don't bother to do an on site inspection either. Fact.
What's "irc" ? It's out of my league.

what state has no codes?

 

[woodhog73]

I'm in a rural area.

When I had my install done by a hearth company there was no requirement for any permit to be pulled. If you don't need a permit then who would check if everything meets fire codes ?

My insurance company wanted photos and a sheet filled out with distances to combustibles etc, but did not require any inspection.

There are definitely fire codes though. Could it be that some areas ( rural ) consider a stove or insert an appliance? So no permit is required ?

 

[jb6l6gc]

Not having a permit doesn't mean no codes. Your county may not care or your insurance but their are still applicable codes for solid fuel burning appliances. Lol even the installation instructions for my Selkirk fireplace and drolet furnace both reference installation codes for both Canada and the US. Calling out bholler who is a known reputable professional in the industry without anything to back up your claims is just rediculous!

 

[bholler]

The truth is that most insurance companies don't bother to do an on site inspection either. Fact.

Yes that is very true but that does not mean that they will not inspect if there is a claim.

What's "irc" ? It's out of my league.

The international residential code. And you are lecturing me on codes????

There are definitely fire codes though. Could it be that some areas ( rural ) consider a stove or insert an appliance? So no permit is required ?

Yes exactly just because you dont need a permit does not mean there is no code.

 

[firefighterjake]

Not having a permit doesn't mean no codes. Your county may not care or your insurance but their are still applicable codes for solid fuel burning appliances. Lol even the installation instructions for my Selkirk fireplace and drolet furnace both reference installation codes for both Canada and the US. Calling out bholler who is a known reputable professional in the industry without anything to back up your claims is just rediculous!

Yup. True life example: Where I work one must get a permit if they install a woodstove . . . and the fire inspector follows up with an on site visit to insure it is installed correctly.

Where I live no permits are necessary . . . but NFPA 211 has been adopted by Maine and should be followed . . . regardless of whether anyone actually inspects the woodstove installation. In my own case, the insurance company requested that it be installed by a professional and that the fire department do the inspection -- at which point I educated my Fire Chief a bit on what is legal and not legal as his paperwork tended to be a bit dated and was for older, unlisted installations. The point however is that even if no one is actually inspecting . . . oftentimes the code is in place . . . and should be followed for best and safest practices.

That said . . . it sounds like the folks may not have been following safe practices . . . regardless of the code . . . by placing combustibles too close to the stove.

 

[DUMF]

Yes that is very true but that does not mean that they will not inspect if there is a claim.
The international residential code. And you are lecturing me on codes????
Yes exactly just because you dont need a permit does not mean there is no code.

Now let's lose the righteousness Holler. If there's something we don't know, we ask. Who the %$#&@ knew "IRC" when you lower case it as "irc" ?
I thought it was one of those TLA's that techies use. Incoming Request Claim ?

Now there are "fire codes" in every state and in many more settled urban places. Fire codes are general ( yes, lecturing here ) concerned with fire/smoke detectors, perhaps ( yes "perhaps" ) fire prevention construction. exits, perhaps sprinkler requirements, and just maybe, wood stoves.
No two stoves have the same installation specs, or for that matter, do U.S. codes compared top more stringent Canadian ones.
And most fire departments that are volunteer have no training or time for wood stove installation safety or flue construction regs.
Forget those insurance companies "inspecting" anything except when they have to pay out a claim.

Jake: what are the causes of most fires ? Electrical, smoking, wood stoves, what ?

No, I am not a "professional". Just a wood hack that has heated with wood for too damn long, used too many brands of wood stoves, put up too many Selkirk double walled SS flues. harvested from self owned woodlots for too damn long, split and stacked the usual for TDL ( a TLA = Too Damn Long) , and until the winter of biblical proportions two seasons ago, enjoyed it all. What's a roof rake ? I'm ready to join you for a central furnace.

 

[bholler]

Now let's lose the righteousness Holler. If there's something we don't know, we ask. Who the %$#&@ knew "IRC" when you lower case it as "irc" ?
I thought it was one of those TLA's that techies use. Incoming Request Claim ?

Well I am sorry but we were having a discussion about codes so I assumed that in context you would know that I was referring to A code. I guess that was expecting to much. And btw I am not being self righteous I was simply responding to your post implying that I did not know the applicable codes concerning my profession.

Now there are "fire codes" in every state and in many more settled urban places. Fire codes are general ( yes, lecturing here ) concerned with fire/smoke detectors, perhaps ( yes "perhaps" ) fire prevention construction. exits, perhaps sprinkler requirements, and just maybe, wood stoves.
No two stoves have the same installation specs, or for that matter, do U.S. codes compared top more stringent Canadian ones.
And most fire departments that are volunteer have no training or time for wood stove installation safety or flue construction regs.
Forget those insurance companies "inspecting" anything except when they have to pay out a claim.

So you are now saying that all states do have fire codes they just dont apply to wood stoves? Have you ever read IRC (international residential code)? It clearly covers chimneys stoves fireplaces ect. And it also says that to meet code for a listed appliance you must follow the manufacturers installation instructions.

No, I am not a "professional". Just a wood hack that has heated with wood for too damn long, used too many brands of wood stoves, put up too many Selkirk double walled SS flues. harvested from self owned woodlots for too damn long, split and stacked the usual for TDL ( a TLA = Too Damn Long) , and until the winter of biblical proportions two seasons ago, enjoyed it all. What's a roof rake ? I'm ready to join you for a central furnace.

There is no need to be a professional most here are not but if you post something that is totally inaccurate those of us who know better will correct you.

 

[DUMF]

Boy am I happy that we don't have to deal with all-knowing bureaucrats. Yes Virginia, there are codes, there are even fire codes.
Then there is a reality of inspection and code enforcement....everywhere.
Then, there are times and opinions that the real world operation means jack...errrr nada...or don't bother me with reality..
The moderator should end this since there is no further intelligent information in our real world of wood stoves' codes to arrive.
Thank you...."thank you very much." (E. Presley, Las Vegas )
You are correct Mr. Holler....right. I am going to have a brew to toast your correcthood.

 

[bholler]

You are correct Mr. Holler....right. I am going to have a brew to toast your correcthood.

I am not concerned about being right for the sake of being right. I am on the other hand very concerned with the safety of those who get their advice from here. And I do not stand for incorrect and frankly dangerous information being given out.

 

[firefighterjake]

1) Cooking fires -- mostly grease fires on stove tops, but this also includes baking fires
2) Heating Equipment -- most of these come from space heaters (which includes woodstoves)
3) Electrical

 

[bholler]

real world of wood stoves

You also do realize that i work in the real world of wood stoves every day right? And yes I work in an area where permits generally are not required but we still have codes to follow and if I don't follow them it is my business on the line and more importantly the house and lives of my customers.

 

[DUMF]

1) Cooking fires -- mostly grease fires on stove tops, but this also includes baking fires
2) Heating Equipment -- most of these come from space heaters (which includes woodstoves)
3) Electrical

Now that finally makes real world common sense. Thanks to a fireman !
Thanks Jake.
How many of those so-called "code violations" that were never inspected caused fires ?
None.
Do codes that are never inspected or followed mean anything ? Bureaucracy redux.
Holler, end. You are correct, so end . I concede to a professional.

 

[bholler]

How many of those so-called "code violations" that were never inspected caused fires ?
None.

What do you mean? Unsafe installations which are usually in violation of code start fires all the time. That goes for wood stoves electrical ect ect. They may not be the leading cause of fires but they still cause fires. That is what happens in the real world. I don't know where you think I work but it is in the real world. Yes I see code violations all the time I tell the customer and they do with it what they will some fix them some do not. Most do not result in fires but they occasionally do. I am not willing to take the risk that my house or the houses I work on will be the ones that don't have a problem. So when I am doing an install or a liner or whatever I do it all atleast to code if not above the minimum requirement.

Do codes that are never inspected or followed mean anything ? Bureaucracy redux.

Those codes are there to set a minimum safety standard. They are not there just to be a pain in the butt. So yes even if they are not enforced they should be followed to keep yourself safe. If you choose to ignore your own safety and the safety of your family that is up to you but don't go around telling others that is the way to do it.

 

[BrotherBart]

Stick a fork in this one. It's done.