Rototilling/New Garden

[Lumber-Jack]

By the time you spray, wait...you could have physically removed the turf completely, no grass/weeds issues. Removing turf is super easy and goes quickly once you get going. also a lot of guys don't follow directions, they figure if 1 dose is good, 5 must be better.

If the waiting time is a big factor then the other methods suggested of covering the grass with plastic and waiting for the grass to die are definitely out because that can take months,or possibly years, to completely kill all the roots and seeds that might be in the soil.Where as it takes about a week (in warm weather) for Glyphosate to take effect and kill the vegetation it comes in contact with. Also removing the turf doesn't seem like the wisest plan either since you are also removing the topsoil with it, and I'd think you would really want to keep the topsoil in place for the garden.
Not that it really maters whether people use twice, or three times as much Glyphosate as they need to, but it seems the last two posts are suggesting that people should never use the herbicide because they are generally just too stupid to follow directions. That seems like a pretty weak argument. It's like reasoning that people should never buy or use a new chainsaw, because there's a chance they might not be smart enough to follow the directions on how to use it. Thing is, if you follow this logic there have been plenty of confirmed people being seriously hurt or killed using chainsaws, and yet people have drank Gyphosate before with no serious or even noticeable effects.
It is just this sort of unreasonable logic that makes me giggle when I read these anti Glyphosate debates.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

As for tilling and worms. I rototill my garden every spring, but I have no shortage of worms in my garden. I'm sure tilling chops up a few worms, but their numbers seem to be dictated by how much organic compounds you have available in you soil, not by whether you till it once a year or not. When I started gardening on my little plot about 5 years ago I couldn't find a single worm, but we have been composting every year since then and every year we spread that compost and tons of worms through the garden area and now you can't dig a shovel full of soil anywhere in the garden without digging up a bunch of worms. So despite the fact that we till every spring, are worm population has grown from zero to thousands, basically because we compost.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

As for tilling and worms. I rototill my garden every spring, but I have no shortage of worms in my garden. I'm sure tilling chops up a few worms, but their numbers seem to be dictated by how much organic compounds you have available in you soil, not by whether you till it once a year or not. When I started gardening on my little plot about 5 years ago I couldn't find a single worm, but we have been composting every year since then and every year we spread that compost and tons of worms through the garden area and now you can't dig a shovel full of soil anywhere in the garden without digging up a bunch of worms. So despite the fact that we till every spring, are worm population has grown from zero to thousands, basically because we compost.

I think that people read a little too much into my worm comment. I have no doubt that everyone has lots of worms. Worms are killed by tillers, they repopulate. It was mostly a joke.

However- keep piling compostables on top, and the worms will do the tilling for you. Tilling every year just seems like a lot of un-necessary work.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

I think that people read a little too much into my worm comment. I have no doubt that everyone has lots of worms. Worms are killed by tillers, they repopulate. It was mostly a joke.
.

Well it's hard to tell who's joking and who's not joking sometimes. Like I said, the logic people use to support their views sometimes makes me giggle, but I don't think they are always joking.

I have tried not tilling areas before, but I find that I often end up contending with more weeds since the majority of weed seeds end up on the very surface layer of soil, and tilling forces most of them down deeper where they are too deep to sprout. Also tilling aerates the soil, and certain types of soil benefit from that. The soil in my garden area was rocks and hard pan before I started and nothing but tough weeds would grow there, composting and tilling the soil has slowly improved the soil every year. Of course there are areas where I have certain crops like garlic that I plant in the fall, or raised beds, where I can't till, so I have to resign myself to pulling weeds there by hand, and just going by how many weeds that seem to sprout up in those areas, I am confident that my tilling efforts are not in vain. It takes me about an hour to till my whole garden plot, I could easily spend 10 times or more that amount of extra time weeding if I didn't till.

 

[mass_burner]

As for tilling and worms. I rototill my garden every spring, but I have no shortage of worms in my garden. I'm sure tilling chops up a few worms, but their numbers seem to be dictated by how much organic compounds you have available in you soil, not by whether you till it once a year or not. When I started gardening on my little plot about 5 years ago I couldn't find a single worm, but we have been composting every year since then and every year we spread that compost and tons of worms through the garden area and now you can't dig a shovel full of soil anywhere in the garden without digging up a bunch of worms. So despite the fact that we till every spring, are worm population has grown from zero to thousands, basically because we compost.

it really does depend on why you're clearing the grass. If your clearing to plant a garden, your probably going to work in some organic material prior to planting. I have a faily deep topsoil layer where I live, so removing the turf and adding compost/soil works fine. But having cleared the grass/weeds once does not keep them away forever, airborne seeds will eventually sprout. that's why I mulch in the garden. i hear you on folks not following directions, point taken. But if all those guys I see at Lowes with shopping carts full of weed killers and other lawn chemicals is any indication, I think its concerning even if they are following the directions.

"people have drank Gyphosate before with no serious or even noticeable effects" --- i don't think these folks should buy chainsaws.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Well it's hard to tell who's joking and who's not joking sometimes. Like I said, the logic people use to support their views sometimes makes me giggle, but I don't think they are always joking.

I have tried not tilling areas before, but I find that I often end up contending with more weeds since the majority of weed seeds end up on the very surface layer of soil, and tilling forces most of them down deeper where they are too deep to sprout. Also tilling aerates the soil, and certain types of soil benefit from that. The soil in my garden area was rocks and hard pan before I started and nothing but tough weeds would grow there, composting and tilling the soil has slowly improved the soil every year. Of course there are areas where I have certain crops like garlic that I plant in the fall, or raised beds, where I can't till, so I have to resign myself to pulling weeds there by hand, and just going by how many weeds that seem to sprout up in those areas, I am confident that my tilling efforts are not in vain. It takes me about an hour to till my whole garden plot, I could easily spend 10 times or more that amount of extra time weeding if I didn't till.

Well, I did put in a smily, so I was trying.

First- the reason to put a mess of mulched leaves etc on top is to keep down weeds. Bare soil seems like a bad idea for anyone with the means to put some shredded leaves on there. It also reduces watering. Tilling brings up old weed seeds, as another glyphos. user here pointed out.

Second- Tilling aerates... until it rains. It is actually worse for many gardens, as it mixes up the existing soil structure (worm and microbe activity create a lot of structure if there's a lot of organic matter already)\

I plant 150 or so head of garlic every year. I NEVER weed the garlic bed in growing season. What the garlic itself doesn't smother, the mulch does. When I replant- I just shove the clove in without digging a hole or turning anything.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

Well, I did put in a smily, so I was trying.

I plant 150 or so head of garlic every year. I NEVER weed the garlic bed in growing season. What the garlic itself doesn't smother, the mulch does. When I replant- I just shove the clove in without digging a hole or turning anything.

Well you either have incredibly hardy garlic, or incredibly feeble weeds, because if I put enough mulch over my garlic to prevent the weeds from coming through I'll also will prevent the garlic from coming through. Generally I have to weed around the garlic at least once in the spring after it is a few inches tall, then I can mulch around it to prevent new young weeds from coming up.
Right now I have plenty of weeds growing in the garden, they seem to get a foothold in the late fall and manage to continue growing, albeit very slowly, throughout the winter. Once I rototill I'll have zero weeds growing. Sure they will start sprouting again, but at least they won't have the huge head start on the veggies like they do now.
I get a lot of weed seeds from my neighbor's place, his yard turns yellow with dandelions every year. Unfortunately my herbicide sprayer doesn't spray far enough to manage all the weeds in his yard.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

"people have drank Gyphosate before with no serious or even noticeable effects" --- i don't think these folks should buy chainsaws.

Point taken.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Well you either have incredibly hardy garlic, or incredibly feeble weeds, because if I put enough mulch over my garlic to prevent the weeds from coming through I'll also will prevent the garlic from coming through. Generally I have to weed around the garlic at least once in the spring after it is a few inches tall, then I can mulch around it to prevent new young weeds from coming up.
Right now I have plenty of weeds growing in the garden, they seem to get a foothold in the late fall and manage to continue growing, albeit very slowly, throughout the winter. Once I rototill I'll have zero weeds growing. Sure they will start sprouting again, but at least they won't have the huge head start on the veggies like they do now.
I get a lot of weed seeds from my neighbor's place, his yard turns yellow with dandelions every year. Unfortunately my herbicide sprayer doesn't spray far enough to manage all the weeds in his yard.

I put a lot of shredded leaves on the day that I plant in the fall (4-6"?). Never plant in a row- plant in a block 4-5" between plants. They push right through that, no problem- been doing it that way over a decade.

I put shredded leaves on the whole garden as I produce them in the yard. Very little watering, no erosion ever, fewer weeds. The soil gets so rich from that stuff that any weeds that do grow pull out roots and all very easily (and there's none in the garlic patch- as their dense planting magnifies the effect). The only down side to this treatment is that the soil is so loose that I need to be more careful staking up tomatoes and peppers (I use the Florida weave- super easy, less work).

No buying/using "chemicals" in my yard. Yes, I do know a thing or two about chemicals. If you'd like a peak at my resume, I'm sure you'd agree

 

[Highbeam]

Worms rock!
If you're willing to stop the killing by tilling, add some organics, and let them have their way they will do amazing things for your garden.
I think some out there still believe the old adage that cutting a worm in half yields two worms -- not true BTW.

I am a reagular tiller and have zillions of worms. I know regular tilling creates that plow pan on the bottom but I have never had an issue of lack of worms.

Oh and I have never applied roundup to an active garden, only to kill the grass and weeds before planting. I am not willing to risk killing the plants with overspray.

 

[AK13]

When we started our garden it was on an old overgrown plot left by the previous owner. We thought we would just till it all up but found that the tiller that we rented could not blast through the weeds. It would jump up and "run" across the ground. So I had to dig up the weeds/turf. It was a PIA!

We decided to do the same thing to the other half of the abandoned garden the next year. That fall I buried the whole thing in a foot of shredded leaves. MUCH better experience! I ended up digging that bed because I didn't feel like having to rent a rototiller again, but could have tilled it much easier.

One way or another (by cardboard/mulching, roundup or digging) you need to remove the turf before you till it.

 

[semipro]

I am a reagular tiller and have zillions of worms. I know regular tilling creates that plow pan on the bottom but I have never had an issue of lack of worms..

I tilled yearly for 8 years and admittedly enjoyed it.
Saw some worms but not too many.
Skipped tilling one year because my tiller broke.
After 3 years of not tilling I can hardly dig a hole for all the worms in the way.
I've found yearly tilling a waste of time, resources, storage space, and a poor reason to keep yet another infernal combustion engine running.
That said, I'd probably still till if establishing a new bed.