RE: Heating oil prices going up?

[RedGuy]

For me the numbers worked out to be a cost of about $1,500/ year for heat, air conditioning, AND hot water. The calculated cost for my current set up which is an oil furnace, and electric water heater was projected to be about $4,500/yr. so the savings would be more like $3,000/yr. At that rate it'll take less than 5 years to completely pay for itself in savings, that's not considering that my old furnace is probably already due for replacement so if you take out the cost for a new high efficency furnace and A/C the pay back time is reduced even further. Now where I'm at I'm limited to oil/ propane or electric, no natural gas service, if your on NG your pay back will be much longer.

 

[fdegree]

Different areas of the country may have different cost savings, so my numbers certainly will not apply to everyone.

I do agree, if your current system is due for replacement anyway, this may be worth a serious consideration. But, replacing a perfectly good system may not be wise for some.

 

[bcnu]

Replacing a 45 year old oil furnace this month with electric furnace and heat pump. It should last another 45 years. I already have 7 years of wood split and stacked in the woodshed. And, when the 5 acres of Hazelnut trees dies off due to Eastern Filbert Blight in the next few years I'll have enough wood for another 7 years Let's see, 45 years minus 14 means I'm getting there. I have been able to stretch my last 250 gallon fill up for 4 years and could have gone longer. Love wood heat but also couldn't pass up the tax credit and the opportunity to replace an aging fossil fuel dinosaur.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Whether Geo-thermal is cost effective IMO depends on a few things.
I like burning wood so my heat is already cheaper than Geo-thermal.
If you like your house very warm (74-76)in winter any kind of heat pump(even geo-thermal) may not be the best choice for you.

 

[trailrated]

Oil went up in my area. I pay a flat rate per month which includes automatic delivery and an annual cleaning. The price is broke down per 10 months and they average your usage to figure out what you pay per month. I like it because I don't get stuck with an $6-800 dollar bill when I need to fill up. Last year I paid $55 bucks a month. This year its $155. That is over $1000 increase over 10 months. I'm gonna have to break down and get the wood furnace, instead of just heating the garage with wood.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Oil went up in my area. I pay a flat rate per month which includes automatic delivery and an annual cleaning. The price is broke down per 10 months and they average your usage to figure out what you pay per month. I like it because I don't get stuck with an $6-800 dollar bill when I need to fill up. Last year I paid $55 bucks a month. This year its $155. That is over $1000 increase over 10 months. I'm gonna have to break down and get the wood furnace, instead of just heating the garage with wood.

I used to be in your shoes with the oil. I kept thinking of all the things id rather do with $600-800 a month rather than pay for more hookers for saudi oil sheiks(saw that on the news).
Im off oil now and using a locally mined solid fuel anthracite. A high quality clean burning form of coal only available in my area. I now pay about $750 a year, not a month ,and i pay my fellow Pennsylvanians and not contributing to the US trade deficit. I use wood to heat in my line of work to heat housed under rehab and a second home as well.
Cost for that $60 to rent a wood splitter for a 2 year supply of wood.

 

[CALJREICH]

Whether Geo-thermal is cost effective IMO depends on a few things.
I like burning wood so my heat is already cheaper than Geo-thermal.
If you like your house very warm (74-76)in winter any kind of heat pump(even geo-thermal) may not be the best choice for you.

I can heat and cool my house with my geothermal for $1200 a year , heat and cool and heat my hot water. Yes heat it to 74 degrees cool it to 72. I wouldn't have bought a wood stove but my father gave me 80 acres about half wooded. I like to play. Got a Atv and chainsaw cutting wood is some exercise. If you are paying $750 a year to heat your house, don't think that is cheaper then geothermal and don't try cooling your house in July with your stove.
One other thing there is a big difference between an air to air heat pump and a geothermal heat pump. The under ground temp which the geothermal unit uses to heat and cool is consistent around 50 degrees or so. The air to air heat pump has an all electric backup unit it reverts to when outside air temps drop below 32 degrees , expensive heating! Not that you don't know everything. I just wanted to share that with anyone who was intrested in fact and not opinion. Geothermal doesn't go to a backup unit.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Whether Geo-thermal is cost effective IMO depends on a few things.
I like burning wood so my heat is already cheaper than Geo-thermal.
If you like your house very warm (74-76)in winter any kind of heat pump(even geo-thermal) may not be the best choice for you.

I can heat and cool my house with my geothermal for $1200 a year , heat and cool and heat my hot water. Yes heat it to 74 degrees cool it to 72. I wouldn't have bought a wood stove but my father gave me 80 acres about half wooded. I like to play. Got a Atv and chainsaw cutting wood is some exercise. If you are paying $750 a year to heat your house, don't think that is cheaper then geothermal and don't try cooling your house in July with your stove.
One other thing there is a big difference between an air to air heat pump and a geothermal heat pump. The under ground temp which the geothermal unit uses to heat and cool is consistent around 50 degrees or so. The air to air heat pump has an all electric backup unit it reverts to when outside air temps drop below 32 degrees , expensive heating! Not that you don't know everything. I just wanted to share that with anyone who was intrested in fact and not opinion. Geothermal doesn't go to a backup unit.

Dont know what your Geo system cost but a friend of mine just had one put in $15000.His electric bill is less but he,s still trying to figure out if he will ever get his initial start-up cost out. I hear some pay much more. Geo is not cheap to install thats a fact not just my opinion.
I have more than one house. I dont pay for wood in the second and third location so my heat IS 100% cheaper than Geo Thermal,or anything else. I spend about $20 a summer on AC,not really enough to go out and look for alternatives. Geo is a great system if you can get past the start up cost, probably the most expensive option there is with up front cost. If your using a wood stove then your supplementing your Geo system anyway. But is it cost effective in every situation? Probably not. Certainly not in my case.

 

[woodgeek]

We're getting a little off topic discussing Geos (GSHP), but I'll pile on. When I moved into my 60s split level in 2005, I burned >1300 gals of fuel oil for heat and DHW, and three years later I was being quoted $5/gal. That is $6500 year for a 2200 sqft house with storm windows and good insulation! (I have since located the massive air leaks and dropped my usage 40%) I looked at heat pumps, pushed the numbers (I'm an engineer) and geo was a no-brainer--relative to air source heat pumps. My climate is mild but not warm--4800 heating degree days, and I can get a seasonally averaged COP of 2.2 using a cheapo ASHP. My heating bill this year works out to $900. With a SCOP of 4, a top of the line GSHP might be $400/yr cheaper--how long to pay back an extra $15k installation cost?

I know that a lot of folks here were driven to wood by high bills on their ASHPs, but that is b/c of bad installation. IF I had let the installer pick my unit, he would have built me a hybrid system that switches to oil or electric at 32°F. AS it is I pushed the numbers myself, went up one ton, and got a system that doesn't call backup until the temp outside goes below 20°F, which here is <100 hr per year. Bottom line, if you are at less than ~5000 degree days heating, it is really hard to make the case for geo relative to a _properly sized_ modern ASHP. If your current ASHP is running backup all the time--look into getting it fixed and and/or upgraded--that will likely be a solid investment.

 

[fdegree]

I agree...many residential HVAC contractors do not size, design, nor install heat pumps properly. A properly sized, designed and installed air-air heat pump can provide sufficient heat, down to a fairly low outside air temperature, without the need for backup. But, doing that down to 20* outside is very impressive. This makes me wonder if you are oversized and creating humidity problems in your house during the summer. If not, good for you. Although, geothermal is still much more efficient, but not always cost effective.

Also, the thermostat can cause the backup heat to come on prematurely if it is not set up and programmed properly. I've seen a few different t-stat programming scenarios that have caused the back-up heat to come on when it is not needed. For example, the t-stat turned on the backup heat at 40* outside air temperature, simply because the heat pump was not heating the space fast enough. Reprogramming the t-stat properly, eliminated this. So, a properly installed and programmed t-stat can reduce heating bills significantly.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Having installed and maintained and serviced heating systems for about 50 homes in the last 30 years,and also having to decide what fuel source to go with, iv never once made the case for Geo-Thermal cost wise.Not to say i dont like the concept.On the contrary, its one of the, if not the most energy efficient HVAC systems using electric. But possibly not the most cost efficient. I also love electric cars but you still have a hard time making the case for those as well cost wise. If you want sub $1000yr heating and AC bills you could probably achieve that with insulation much cheaper than you can swapping your existing system out for Geo-THermal In my case im already spending less than $1000 a year to heat and cool 3000Sf and my house is only about 60-70-% insulated. I dont use wood in my primary home at all.I could probably reduce My yearly cost another 30% just by finishing insulating it. which i plan to do this winter,if i get to it. Add to that electric rates just went up 30 to 50% in PA last January. That makes the water even murkier. So i stand by my opinion,its a great system but its not for everyone.

 

[firefighterjake]

[ :zip: code][/code]

Oil went up in my area. I pay a flat rate per month which includes automatic delivery and an annual cleaning. The price is broke down per 10 months and they average your usage to figure out what you pay per month. I like it because I don't get stuck with an $6-800 dollar bill when I need to fill up. Last year I paid $55 bucks a month. This year its $155. That is over $1000 increase over 10 months. I'm gonna have to break down and get the wood furnace, instead of just heating the garage with wood.

I used to be in your shoes with the oil. I kept thinking of all the things id rather do with $600-800 a month rather than pay for more hookers for saudi oil sheiks(saw that on the news).
Im off oil now and using a locally mined solid fuel anthracite. A high quality clean burning form of coal only available in my area. I now pay about $750 a year, not a month ,and i pay my fellow Pennsylvanians and not contributing to the US trade deficit. I use wood to heat in my line of work to heat housed under rehab and a second home as well.
Cost for that $60 to rent a wood splitter for a 2 year supply of wood.

Lord forgive me for this one . . .

So . . . uh . . . now that you're saving $600-$800 a month are you paying for the hookers now? :zip:

 

[Seasoned Oak]

[ :zip: code][/code]

Oil went up in my area. I pay a flat rate per month which includes automatic delivery and an annual cleaning. The price is broke down per 10 months and they average your usage to figure out what you pay per month. I like it because I don't get stuck with an $6-800 dollar bill when I need to fill up. Last year I paid $55 bucks a month. This year its $155. That is over $1000 increase over 10 months. I'm gonna have to break down and get the wood furnace, instead of just heating the garage with wood.

I used to be in your shoes with the oil. I kept thinking of all the things id rather do with $600-800 a month rather than pay for more hookers for saudi oil sheiks(saw that on the news).
Im off oil now and using a locally mined solid fuel anthracite. A high quality clean burning form of coal only available in my area. I now pay about $750 a year, not a month ,and i pay my fellow Pennsylvanians and not contributing to the US trade deficit. I use wood to heat in my line of work to heat housed under rehab and a second home as well.
Cost for that $60 to rent a wood splitter for a 2 year supply of wood.

Lord forgive me for this one . . .

So . . . uh . . . now that you're saving $600-$800 a month are you paying for the hookers now? :zip:

Very funny FFJ Im sure the lord will forgive you its thanksgiving. I guess its the ones still buying oil paying for the hookers. I haven't bought any (oil not hookers) since 2002.

 

[woodgeek]

I agree...many residential HVAC contractors do not size, design, nor install heat pumps properly. A properly sized, designed and installed air-air heat pump can provide sufficient heat, down to a fairly low outside air temperature, without the need for backup. But, doing that down to 20* outside is very impressive. This makes me wonder if you are oversized and creating humidity problems in your house during the summer. If not, good for you. Although, geothermal is still much more efficient, but not always cost effective.

Also, the thermostat can cause the backup heat to come on prematurely if it is not set up and programmed properly. I've seen a few different t-stat programming scenarios that have caused the back-up heat to come on when it is not needed. For example, the t-stat turned on the backup heat at 40* outside air temperature, simply because the heat pump was not heating the space fast enough. Reprogramming the t-stat properly, eliminated this. So, a properly installed and programmed t-stat can reduce heating bills significantly.

Summertime humidity control was a big concern, but it has been aok, typically ~50%RH in hot weather. The tstat (visionpro) will automatically run a couple degrees below setpoint if the RH gets above 60%, which actually works out comfortwise--you don't feel it. The system probably does that a few days per season, mostly 100 RH days in the 70s outside. I wouldn't mind running 40% RH in the house and a few degrees warmer, but I wasn't interested in paying extra for a humidity controlling system or multi-stage compressor. I figure when I replace the compressor (I'm hoping to get ten years running it ~3000 hours/yr) the new units will all be more eff and multistage.

I also agree with you about thermostats--despite talking to the installer about my plans, he still configured the tstat to switch to oil at 40F, and reconfig'ed it that way when he came back to inspect it the following year. Folks having problems with newer HP systems would do well to download the setup manual on their tstats and make sure they are configured sensibly. My installer clearly thought I was a bit loony--he was very surprised in year 2 when I told him the compressor offset ~600 gal of oil, held the house down into the 20s and cut my heating costs by half. Most of them don't follow fuel/elec prices or compute BTU costs and are making config decisions that were the conventional wisdom back when oil was $1/gal.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Im wondering if anyone has ever made a comparison of Geo-thermal to solar for the heating part anyway. If you going to spent the considerable cost to Install Geo-THermal you may be able to buy a lot of solar equipment for which the fuel is free. Of course the solar equipment is mostly visible except passive. I get about 20% of my heat from solar Already with little effort. A nice feature is they cant tax you for it as they can on your electric bill.