RE: Hay logs?

[harleyrose]

http://www.onlinesentinel.com/news/farmer-wins-grant-to-make-hay-logs_2013-05-02.html

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So many grants . . . so much money wasted considering how heavily forested Maine is . . . then again I have seen dumber grants given out . . . such as the grant my brother got to build a gravel road to nowhere . . . it goes out about a half mile and then abruptly ends with a 3 foot drop off. He built it so he could supposedly move his flock of sheep (I think he may be up to 20 or so) from one field to another . . . and this is all on land he doesn't even own. Got another grant to put up fencing . . . he did not get the grant to attempt to grow blueberries on ledge though.

You should really do your homework and know what you are talking about before you bash people and companies...being from Maine you should know the issues with the wood and forest industry and that this is a huge benefit...there are all kinds of organizations buying forest land and putting it into conservation land because of deforestation, there is a shortage of seasoned firewood every year and pellet mills are closing due to lack of supply of wood chips to make the pellets

 

[sportbikerider78]

If there is money in the idea, get a bank to invest in you instead of using your neighbors money that he worked hard for.

 

[jatoxico]

You should really do your homework and know what you are talking about before you bash people and companies...being from Maine you should know the issues with the wood and forest industry and that this is a huge benefit...there are all kinds of organizations buying forest land and putting it into conservation land because of deforestation, there is a shortage of seasoned firewood every year and pellet mills are closing due to lack of supply of wood chips to make the pellets

You're responding to quite an old thread in a bit of a confrontational manner. If you have some good info to share about the subject of thread please do because most everyone here would like to hear some details about a renewable energy source.

 

[Applesister]

I have a friend who just grows hay, Id pass info onto him. The link posted has expired.
Its by far a better idea than corn/ethanol.

 

[maple1]

I have a relative in the forage business too. Grows & sells quite a bit of hay. Always has some go bad that he can't sell. He was thinking about maybe making pellets out of it - but that idea didn't go far.

 

[harleyrose]

If there is money in the idea, get a bank to invest in you instead of using your neighbors money that he worked hard for.

If the Grant doesn't go to them its just going to go to someone else so why not use it to produce something that benefits us the customer as well as the hay farmer, the economy and the environment?

 

[harleyrose]

www

You're responding to quite an old thread in a bit of a confrontational manner. If you have some good info to share about the subject of thread please do because most everyone here would like to hear some details about a renewable energy source.

(broken link removed) they are supposed to be going to market later this year for next heating season and were at the Common Ground Fair last year...lower emissions and less ash then wood, additional income for hay farmers and higher BTU

 

[jatoxico]

www


(broken link removed) they are supposed to be going to market later this year for next heating season and were at the Common Ground Fair last year...lower emissions and less ash then wood, additional income for hay farmers and higher BTU

Interesting, do you have any information regarding how they compare density or BTU wise to any of the current pressed wood products? I haven't had terribly good luck with pressed bricks though others swear by them.

 

[BoiledOver]

www


(broken link removed) they are supposed to be going to market later this year for next heating season and were at the Common Ground Fair last year...lower emissions and less ash then wood, additional income for hay farmers and higher BTU

@harleyrose Wondering if this outfit has started production and sales. The most recent article resulting from a google search was dated April of 2015. Do you have additional information and/or hands on experience with a hay log?

 

[maple1]

@harleyrose Wondering if this outfit has started production and sales. The most recent article resulting from a google search was dated April of 2015. Do you have additional information and/or hands on experience with a hay log?

I think I found some from the next month. They also have a FB page with some more recent postings, I think one indicated product to market in February.

I actually hope this works out. If it does, Mr. Bragdon would do well to somehow license out the machinery or sell it or something of the like. There are places the world over that have lots of waste hay (maybe other similar stuff too) that might be worth doing something with on the local level. I don't think transporting the raw goods very far to the manufacturing spot would be too cost effective. Selling the machinery to do it with might be more lucrative than making the logs.

 

[iamlucky13]

But the hay is then fed to critters. This dude is going through a relatively energy intense process to further process it into logs. I can't see how you could do this efficiently enough to regain the energy input. If I were a betting man, I would guess that the energy input out weighs the heating value.

Grass and trees grow by the same process (photosynthesis) and have similar chemical content (mostly cellulose). You should expect them to be more similar as fuel than different.

The processing is, of course, a relevant question, but hay processing is actually pretty efficient. It's a fairly uniform material, which makes it straightforward to process in bulk.

I spent almost every summer working in hay fields - started out just raking up what the tractor missed and moved on to bucking bales, then driving tractors - from when I was 6 or 7 until I graduated college.

I'd estimate our fuel use was in 1-2 gallon per ton range (including 4-tractor passes for cut, ted, rake, and bale). I'm not going to bother estimating transportation or log/pellet forming energy, because those both apply to wood sourced pellets, too. Grass does have higher nitrogen requirements than trees, but I'll mostly have to gloss over that for now, other than to mention that I think fertilizer costs usually work out in the ballpark of $10-20/ton.

Anyways, the result has 15-20% moisture content (cut grass dries out really fast in the windrows in the sun) of mostly cellulose with a similar heating value to wood - a little over 15 million BTU / ton. Burn 1/4 million BTU's worth of diesel, get 15 million BTU's worth of heating fuel feedstock.

Depending on climate, you can get in the ballpark of 5 tons per acre annually.

It does seem out of place to offer a public grant for this in a heavily forested state, however. In the Midwest, it would make more sense.

If the Grant doesn't go to them its just going to go to someone else

I very much dislike the Ted Stevens-esque "bridge to nowhere" thinking that seems to dominate many budget discussions.

Public money should not be spent just because it can be levied from the taxpayers. It should be levied based on what is actually needed. If it doesn't go to them, it should go back to the taxpayers unless that "someone else" serves an actual, compelling public need.

 

[BoiledOver]

I very much dislike the Ted Stevens-esque "bridge to nowhere" thinking that seems to dominate many budget discussions.

Public money should not be spent just because it can be levied from the taxpayers. It should be levied based on what is actually needed. If it doesn't go to them, it should go back to the taxpayers unless that "someone else" serves an actual, compelling public need.

Yeah, there are turd for brains who, out of selfishness, take "government money" and ignore the fact that it is actually coming out of their friends, family and neighbors pockets. Scoundrels...........

 

[iamlucky13]

I don't hold it against people who apply for grants that are offered. From the individual perspective, it is true that if the money doesn't go to one person, it will go to another.

It's the people we elect to be stewards of our money who are supposed to be discerning whether a given program (a) has benefits proportional to the cost and (b) those benefits won't be realized unless the government funds it.

 

[firefighterjake]

You should really do your homework and know what you are talking about before you bash people and companies...being from Maine you should know the issues with the wood and forest industry and that this is a huge benefit...there are all kinds of organizations buying forest land and putting it into conservation land because of deforestation, there is a shortage of seasoned firewood every year and pellet mills are closing due to lack of supply of wood chips to make the pellets

I think it's a matter of perspective, not hard facts that you are stating. Many organizations are buying forest land . . . well some organizations and either trying to turn it into a national park (Roxanne Quimby's organization for example) or in other cases such as Plum Creek trying to turn it into a development. I don't think it is due to deforestation that the forestry industry is in trouble (and there are still lots of trees out there) . . . but rather due to a current lack of demand for softwood . . . particularly products made out of pulp.

As for a shortage of seasoned firewood . . . I suspect this is a perennial problem since it is generally easier to simply sell "green" wood rather than seasoned wood which takes up space. Pellet mills closing . . . some may be . . . but again I suspect it is not due to the lack of supply as the wood chippers are still doing pretty well (guy I know keeps quite busy running a small chipping operation and has since closed his snowmobile repair business and now focuses on only chipping wood for the mills -- to either generate electricity, pulp or for pellets -- and some groundwork in the summer months. Rather, I suspect mills closing may be due to the laws of supply and demand with cheaper pellets being able to come from Canada now with the rate of exchange . . . and the price of oil being so low that many folks are opting to keep their pellet stove idle.

I'm happy you like the hay product and honestly it's nice to see folks coming up with ideas . . . but it just still strikes me as an odd product to make in a heavily forested state with an established history of wood cutting ranging from small operators with a tractor (or horses) and saw all the way up to the multi-employee companies with feller bunches, skidders, etc. It just seems to me that even with so many folks burning wood, there is still plenty of it around that one can still scrounge up wood or buy unseasoned wood and let it season . . . it really isn't true that we are running out of wood.

 

[drz1050]

If I could get a pallet of those in NY, I'd burn em (depending on cost). The specs listed sound identical to the Envi Blocks/ Bio Bricks.

 

[mass_burner]

If there is money in the idea, get a bank to invest in you instead of using your neighbors money that he worked hard for.

With a bank, you'd still be using your neighbors money.

 

[jatoxico]

If they burned well it would be a good option. There was a thread here about an article that questioned the carbon neutrality of industrial scale pellet burning to make electricity. The main scientific concern is the long time it takes for a new tree to grow large enough to recapture the carbon burned so the return takes many years. Especially since had the original tree not been cut, it would have been sequestering carbon all along.

This process would not suffer from the long carbon payback since the product grows in one season.

 

[sportbikerider78]

With a bank, you'd still be using your neighbors money.

The difference is willingly with interest and the other by threat of imprisonment.

That's a big difference.

 

[blades]

Not the same as Envi or Bio blocks No binders of any type. They are using binders in the hay log- the patent lists wax, bio degradable plastic , corn and potato starch in various proportions and the percentages of inclusion of the binders are quite high. This has always been the catch to grasses for pellets or blocks, on the other hand good old cattails are selfbinding. The inclusion of the plastic binder and/or wax negates the use in our epa regulated stoves. I read the basic patent they were granted.

 

[drz1050]

Boo, didn't see that part. What's the % of binding agents?

Is it listed as an allowable percentage, or actually part of the "ingredient list"? Those two are very different things.. and occasionally I find small bits of red plastic in the envi blocks I burn.

 

[iamlucky13]

Hmmm...I pointed out above both are "mostly" cellulose. There's also lignin, which wood has significantly more of than grass. Lignin behaves like a plastic (some bioplastics are actually lignin extracted from wood), and is part of how wood pellets can be made to hold their shape after molding at high temperature. It's also how masonite/hardboard/pegboard is able to be made without glue.

It seems possible they could need an additional binder if the amount of lignin in grass is too low.

I wonder if he could partner with a stove manufacturer to do emissions and temperature tests and see if they're willing to endorse the logs as safe for their stoves.

Here's a copy of the patent. It says 20-30% binder:
http://www.google.com/patents/CA2814163A1?cl=en

 

[jatoxico]

Not the same as Envi or Bio blocks No binders of any type. They are using binders in the hay log- the patent lists wax, bio degradable plastic , corn and potato starch in various proportions and the percentages of inclusion of the binders are quite high. This has always been the catch to grasses for pellets or blocks, on the other hand good old cattails are selfbinding. The inclusion of the plastic binder and/or wax negates the use in our epa regulated stoves. I read the basic patent they were granted.

After doing some research other issues are excessive ash (10% vs 1% for wood) and high chlorine content which can be corrosive.

 

[neverbilly]

@harleyrose Wondering if this outfit has started production and sales. The most recent article resulting from a google search was dated April of 2015. Do you have additional information and/or hands on experience with a hay log?

http://www.pressherald.com/2015/03/...lant-prepares-to-make-hay-logs-in-waterville/

 

[iamlucky13]

^ That article is from March - similarly old.

This late in the season, if Maine area members have seen the logs for sale at any of their local feed or stove stores, it seems doubtful they're doing more than extremely limited sales.

 

[bfitz3]

I'm all for a grant to get someone to try something new. If it works, we all benefit either directly or indirectly. The idea seems to have some novelty to it despite the use of switchgrass or giant miscanthus which produce far more tonnage per acre.

Seems like he's giving it a shot on the manufacturing side and I assume that someone is testing both the efficacy of he product and the strength of the market. The big energy guys will never try to innovate like this, but the little guy often wants to but lacks funds. Yes to grants!