Proposed EPA new regs - It is not the end of the world.

[begreen]

I can already hear people groan when you need to get woodburning training and a license to install/operate a stove in your home.

Coming back to my question above: Are there actually any test data about the emissions of a fireplace? Could those be used to phase out the sale of simple steel boxes in favor of EPA-approved units?

This is hard to quantify because there are lots of variables. I am not sure the completeness of these stats but here is a place to start. It might just be for carbon emissions.

(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/energyefficiency.html)


Much more detailed and aggregated test results reported here:
(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/ttnchie1/conference/ei10/pm/houck.pdf)

 

[begreen]

ya know, some of the best things i recall over the years were publicly sponsored ads and those which were offered by private organizations with help from government to cover costs. education itself can be made available im sure and would be a worthwhile thing to spend some money on.

i think reasonable discussion is important as well, when you look at the politics of politics these days there is precious little discussion on any topic you can come up with , its been replaced by partisan bomb throwing and intolerance of differing views. until we grow up and start communicating again with healthy respectful debate nothing will get accomplished

So very true. There is a great deal of false information being repeated by congresspeople, news media and pundits that borders on hysteria. The biggest falsehood being that the EPA is going to take one's stove away. There is nothing in the new regs empowering anything like this, yet this claim is frequently being used to induce fear and anger. That helps nothing and polarizes the issue rather encouraging meaningful dialog and consent. What is proposed is a gradual phase out. Input is being solicited from every stove mfg. There is a lot of common ground on which most stove companies and owners agree, like phasing out uncertified stoves, burning dry wood, and good burning practice education.

 

[HotCoals]

This is the most eye opening, logical, and reasonable discussion i have seen on a message board in a VERY long time. I have followed all the links and understood 90% of what is being tossed around with test data. Education on burning should be a PRIMARY starting place. It is the least costly option and it is what pulled me out of my stone-age burn practices, drier wood and learning how to operate my stove. Second should be a focus on old stoves and fireplaces. The cash for clunkers program was very controversial, but it was a motivator to get some very dilapidated vehicles off of the roads, tax credits for compressed brick fuel would also be comparable to buying greener cars. If i remember right there was a ~$300 tax credit for buying EPA stoves a while back.

I only bought my BK King cat because the feds offered a 33% tax rebate up to a 1000 bucks in 2010.
So glad I did!

 

[jeffesonm]

I think there would be a lot to gain by a well organized, clear, scientifically supported public information campaign about how to burn stoves cleanly. There is certainly a lot of misinformation out there and many people burn wood that is not dry enough, don't burn pine because it 'causes chimney fires', burn wet wood because it 'burns longer', etc. You could easily frame it in terms of the benefits... more heat from the same amount of wood, less cost, less to move/process, etc. I imagine overall emissions of all stoves would go down if people did a better job burning them, and it wouldn't take more rules, which often rub people the wrong way.



Also I agree with the guy a few posts back... excellent thread and it's so refreshing to see a thoughtful, considerate, nuanced discussion of an important issue on the Internet.

 

[Grisu]

I think there would be a lot to gain by a well organized, clear, scientifically supported public information campaign about how to burn stoves cleanly.

How well science goes over with the general population we can see in various current debates. Maybe we should say it is God's will to burn dry wood? (OMG, I am turning into a real cynic.)

Sarcasm aside and talking about actual solutions: Really, what are the serious arguments against providing a DVD with each stove that explains the basics of woodburning? It just needs a few guys with some weight in the hearth industry to accomplish that. Make a few generic videos that are suitable for every stove (like wood seasoning, importance of draft and regular chimney cleaning, general woodburning safety, the basic principles of secondary burn and cat stoves etc.) and leave it to the individual manufacturer to add some more about the operation of their particular stove(s). Several of those can already be found for free on the internet. Adding them on a DVD to the manual is peanuts in a total stove price and easily pays for itself by less customer complaints and "warranty" claims due to improper operation of the stove (like overfiring). Look at Stihl and their chainsaw training videos. It's just good customer service.

 

[HotCoals]

My stove came with a dvd. Still have not looked at it because i know everything that needs to be known already..lol.

 

[HotCoals]

The most widely quoted statistic about air quality is this: The Environmental Protection Agency estimates that indoor air can be two- to five-times more polluted than the air outdoors. And while the EPA is responsible for cracking down on outdoor pollution -- the smog, ozone and other chemicals that spew from tailpipes and smokestacks -- protecting the air indoors is largely the responsibility of homeowners.

And while many sources of indoor air are fairly obvious and well-known -- second-hand smoke, carbon monoxide and radon, to name the most prominent, and deadly -- there are more insidious, secret sources of pollution that any concerned homeowner or parent should consider. Below are some of the most surprising. For tips on reducing indoor air pollution from these and other sources, see 25 Indoor Air Quality Tips from the American Lung Association.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

i know everything that needs to be known already

Same here

 

[fossil]

Eagerly awaiting your books to come out.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Eagerly awaiting your books to come out.

You know you'd read it

 

[begreen]

Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. - Henry Ford

 

[fossil]

You know you'd read it

Will there be lots of pictures?

 

[BrotherBart]

Will there be lots of pictures?

I bet he doesn't include a pic of the last tree he cut down.

 

[BrotherBart]

Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. - Henry Ford

You live and learn, then you die and forget it all. - Ray Lum

 

[HotCoals]

Proposed EPA new regs - It is not the end of the world.

Maybe not but it still infringes on our liberty's,freedoms.
Seems like there is always somebody or a group of somebody's always telling us how wrong we are doing things or how bad certain things are such as smoking.
Of course they are usually right but what about our right to be stupid and do bad things anyway and let the natural course of events happen?
Ah but you say you are hurting other people with your bad habits but yet we still drive cars that end up killing over 40 thousand people each year and surely some of those were innocent people..or were they?
Collateral damage assessment is a interesting deal.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Will there be lots of pictures?

Yes. With small words.

 

[Grisu]

Proposed EPA new regs - It is not the end of the world.

Maybe not but it still infringes on our liberty's,freedoms.
Seems like there is always somebody or a group of somebody's always telling us how wrong we are doing things or how bad certain things are such as smoking.
Of course they are usually right but what about our right to be stupid and do bad things anyway and let the natural course of events happen?
Ah but you say you are hurting other people with your bad habits but yet we still drive cars that end up killing over 40 thousand people each year and surely some of those were innocent people..or were they?
Collateral damage assessment is a interesting deal.

You have the liberty to heat your home with wood as your neighbors have the liberty to ensure that you do that without impacting their health. That's what the EPA is trying to accomplish. Same with traffic: You have the liberty to travel from A to B by car but you don't have the freedom to run a red light and endanger other people. I am all for your right to be stupid as long as you are the only one being stuck with the consequences.

 

[Woody Stover]

It takes a real commitment of time and effort to assure that you have dry wood. People tend to procrastinate, or convince themselves that they just don't have the time. I did that for years. Plus, you have to have all that wood stacked on your property somewhere. I have the room but many don't, or run up against the WAF....

 

[Bigg_Redd]

You have the liberty to heat your home with wood as your neighbors have the liberty to ensure that you do that without impacting their health. That's what the EPA is trying to accomplish. Same with traffic: You have the liberty to travel from A to B by car but you don't have the freedom to run a red light and endanger other people. I am all for your right to be stupid as long as you are the only one being stuck with the consequences.

Thanks for the civics lesson: I think we all understand that public order is a balance between the freedom to and the freedom from. No one is debating that. The debate is where to draw that line. The line on woodburning is fine where it is. Older units go out of service every year and thus that problem, over time, is self regulating and there's no need for coercive power of Federal agencies.

 

[Grisu]

Thanks for the civics lesson: I think we all understand that public order is a balance between the freedom to and the freedom from. No one is debating that. The debate is where to draw that line. The line on woodburning is fine where it is. Older units go out of service every year and thus that problem, over time, is self regulating and there's no need for coercive power of Federal agencies.

Without the "coercive power of federal agencies" we would still buy and burn in old smoke dragons. And whether the line of woodburning is fine where it is now is debatable. Emission levels are still higher than what can be considered non harmful to our health. New technologies to further clean up the particulates in woodstove exhaust are already available (see BKs or the Lopi Cape Cod). Hence, it is not an engineering problem but making the manufacturers and consumers to adopt the new stove design. Do the proposed EPA-limits have problems? Sure, they may be too restrictive, come too early, don't include all woodburning appliances like fireplaces and so on. But that means you need to find a sensible compromise and not start ranting:" The government impinges on our freedom." I am sure my neighbor is happy that the government limits my freedom so his kids grow up without asthma. And knowing how badly some patients can suffer from that, I don't have the slightest problem with those limits.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Without the "coercive power of federal agencies" we would still buy and burn in old smoke dragons

So you are saying, in effect, that if a little coercion is good, that more is better? Rilly?

It's super that you believe this. That belief, however, is predicated on. . . well, nothing. That fact is that stoves were already headed toward greater efficiency before the current regs were in place. And stoves are, guess what. . . !? Yes, getting more efficient since with no additional regulation whatsoever.

 

[HotCoals]

Without the "coercive power of federal agencies" we would still buy and burn in old smoke dragons. And whether the line of woodburning is fine where it is now is debatable. Emission levels are still higher than what can be considered non harmful to our health. New technologies to further clean up the particulates in woodstove exhaust are already available (see BKs or the Lopi Cape Cod). Hence, it is not an engineering problem but making the manufacturers and consumers to adopt the new stove design. Do the proposed EPA-limits have problems? Sure, they may be too restrictive, come too early, don't include all woodburning appliances like fireplaces and so on. But that means you need to find a sensible compromise and not start ranting:" The government impinges on our freedom." I am sure my neighbor is happy that the government limits my freedom so his kids grow up without asthma. And knowing how badly some patients can suffer from that, I don't have the slightest problem with those limits.

How about really caring for you neighbors and don't burn any wood at all. The lengths we go to justify our behaviors is also interesting. I'm guilty as charged because I burnt with a smoke dragon for years but I just had new neighbors move in a few years ago...so they should be fine since I bought my cat stove before they moved in...not so sure about the ones that moved out.

 

[fossil]

This thread has begun its inevitable downward spiral...