Propane Price

[FanMan]

Why would electric grow bacteria but not gas?

Electric tankless heaters draw a lot of power. Why not gas tankless? That's the direction I'm going when i need to replace the electric tank.

 

[DAKSY]

Why would electric grow bacteria but not gas?

Something to do with the anode rod. I've replaced a couple, but It's easier & Cheaper just to take the time to add peroxide.

Electric tankless heaters draw a lot of power. Why not gas tankless? That's the direction I'm going when i need to replace the electric tank.

Because I don't want to burn any more LP than I need to, & I don't feel like running the gas line. I just pulled the gas out of there & put in the pellet stove ...I may switch to a pellet boiler before I go tankless in the main house...

 

[ROVERT]

You might find the gas lines easier to run than the electric. You'll probably be looking at somewhere around 100 to 120 amps, ie. three 50A breakers or two 60A breakers. You very well might not even have enough service to run it.

I would go with gas if you need to go tankless.

 

[DAKSY]

You might find the gas lines easier to run than the electric. You'll probably be looking at somewhere around 100 to 120 amps, ie. three 50A breakers or two 60A breakers. You very well might not even have enough service to run it.

I would go with gas if you need to go tankless.

Well, gee, seeing as the electric is there already, I'm finding your logic to be a bit faulty...

 

[ROVERT]

Well, gee, seeing as the electric is there already, I'm finding your logic to be a bit faulty...

I didn't realize you already had a few runs of 8 or 6 wire going to your water heater. My bad.

 

[Jags]

$1.45 today with a min of 200 gallons purchase.

 

[SwineFlue]

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), the average residential propane price was $2.41 per gallon (wholesale $0.95 per gallon) for the week ending November 19, 2012.

Propane prices really depend on where you live. The EIA web site showed that while residential propane averaged $1.68 in the Midwest, it was $3.06 in the mid-Atlantic region that same week.

 

[Retired Guy]

I have one hot water tank that runs on electric & one on LP. The LP company doesn't know about the HW, so I get charged the price for heating. If I was only using it for hot water or cooking, the price would be higher. The problem with the electric is the freekin bacteria that seem to propagate in the tank once the H2O heats up. Everybody in my neighborhood has this issue from the well water. Once every two months, I have to shut it down, drain about a quart out of it & dump a pint of Hydrogen Peroxide into it. Kills the bacteria & we're good for another 2 months...Thinking about switching to an electric tankless (On-Demand) HW for that unit...

If you are on a well and have iron in the water, as we do, it could be iron bacteria that's causing your issue.

(broken link removed to http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/technical/shock-chlorinate-sanitize-wells.php?Screen=USL&Code=shock-chlorinate-sanitize-wells)
http://www.hotwater.com/lit/bulletin/bulletin22.pdf
http://www.hotwater.com/lit/bulletin/bulletin23.pdf

or the type of anode rod.

http://www.aricoplumbing.com/waterheater/waterheater-rotten-egg-smell.aspx

 

[velvetfoot]

My water is just a little stinky at times. The insides of a water pipe I took apart once was quite slimey. Maybe I'll try to shock the well next summer. Thanks.

 

[DAKSY]

I shock mine every now & again, but the first coupla pots of coffee afterwards are almost CLEAR!

 

[Retired Guy]

I shock mine every now & again, but the first coupla pots of coffee afterwards are almost CLEAR!

Did you see the reference to water too cold, <138, fosters growth.

 

[Thomas Anderson]

If you do consider a propane on-demand hot water heater, I highly recommend the Takagi TK-Jr. Only $1000 installed with chimney and outdoor air kit and remote. It can handle a 5 gal/min flow, but since the thermostat can be set up to 180 , you can add a mixing valve to push much more than 5 gal/min to your fixtures at 120 . Also, at 180, there's no worry about bacteria. I use one of these for both domestic hot water and also hydronic heating. It really sips the propane, even though the wonderful consistent heat encourages long showers. Between this unit, cooking, and running a propane generator more often than usual, we're currently at around 30% of our 100 gal tank after filling up before Thanksgiving. I'll probably fill it again at the end of this month and then the end of March, and then not again until next November.

 

[DHill]

If you do consider a propane on-demand hot water heater, I highly recommend the Takagi TK-Jr. Only $1000 installed with chimney and outdoor air kit and remote. It can handle a 5 gal/min flow, but since the thermostat can be set up to 180 , you can add a mixing valve to push much more than 5 gal/min to your fixtures at 120 . Also, at 180, there's no worry about bacteria. I use one of these for both domestic hot water and also hydronic heating. It really sips the propane, even though the wonderful consistent heat encourages long showers. Between this unit, cooking, and running a propane generator more often than usual, we're currently at around 30% of our 100 gal tank after filling up before Thanksgiving. I'll probably fill it again at the end of this month and then the end of March, and then not again until next November.

Thomas

Not to stomp on the OP but would you mind describing how your TK-Jr is plumbed with DHW and hydronic heating? Do you heat your DHW with an indirect tank or ?

 

[Thomas Anderson]

Not to stomp on the OP but would you mind describing how your TK-Jr is plumbed with DHW and hydronic heating? Do you heat your DHW with an indirect tank or ?

The only tanks in my system are for solar thermal heat storage and the well pressure tank, but the system runs fine without the solar thermal component as it's not even hooked up yet. Right now my TK-Jr handles all of my thermostat-controlled on-demand heating and DHW without any hot water storage. The TK-Jr turns on at 0.5 gal/min rate of flow. This flow is achieved via zone pumps to circulate hot water through the floors or by opening a faucet and allowing the well pressure tank to push it through. Here's a photo of the plumbing...



You can see the PEX manifold at the center which supplies the faucets and to the left on the other wall is the heating manifold. The black box with LEDs in the foreground is a custom-built programmable thermostat relay controller which turns on the individual zone pumps. Beneath that, the closest pipe is the return from the hydronic heating zones. Behind that, the white PEX line is the replacement water input which passively fills the system from the well pressure tank when water is taken out at the faucets. It connects to the supply side of the heating manifold. Behind that is the DHW off-take which goes through a mixing valve (the orange knob) and up to the manifold. And that's all of the critical components to making it work. All of the PEX in the hydronic heating side is potable-rated and all metal components in the system are copper or brass.

There are a few other cool features in there too though. Under the center manifold, the cold water supply is fed by either of two valves -- the "winter" side comes straight from the well pressure tank, so the cold well water goes straight to the faucets; the "summer" side comes from the hydronic heating return side, which causes cold well water to flow through all of the floors before exiting at the faucets. This causes some of the heat contained in the thermal mass of the house to transfer to the water and get flushed out, keeping the house cooler during the summer. The two red PEX lines taken off of the hot water supply side prior to the DHW off-take go to the kitchen where they supply the pot filler above the stove and the dishwasher at 165 degrees instead of 120 degrees. And beside that there is a small 3-valve manifold connected to a pump (4 LEDs at bottom-right). That is for recirculating water to each of the bathrooms to keep the tap at temperature. The pump is controlled by motion sensors in each bathroom. Whenever someone walks in a bathroom, the pump circulates hot water to the faucets, thus preventing the wasting of water while waiting for it to heat up. The well pump is a far more expensive load than the circulator pump and the off-grid electricity far more valuable than wasting a little bit of propane (or solar hot water once that's hooked up) in order to circulate hot water for a few minutes when it's not actually called for. It's also very convenient for the impatient... just turn on the shower and jump right in!

 

[velvetfoot]

I gotta figure out what you just said...tomorrow.

Not sure if I asked you before, but is it a deep well pump? Some kind of soft start? If mine ever burns out I'd like to replace it with something easier to start. Thanks.

 

[Thomas Anderson]

I gotta figure out what you just said...tomorrow.

Not sure if I asked you before, but is it a deep well pump? Some kind of soft start? If mine ever burns out I'd like to replace it with something easier to start. Thanks.

It's nothing special. The well is drilled to 500' to get sufficient refill rate, but the pump is only at 100'. We haven't sucked air yet. It's a typical 120V AC pump. It consumes about 2kW on start and 1.2kW continuous. My inverter is rated at 3.5kW continuous and 8kW surge. The pressure tank (on the right edge of the photo above) is 100 gallons, so pump cycling is minimized. I'd eventually like to install a 24V DC slow pump, but they're rather expensive.

 

[velvetfoot]

That seems pretty low (as in good) to me. I'm not off grid like you, and my 240 v.pump in a 450' well (don't know where the pump is), wouldn't start with a 5kw generator; I had to go to a 7.5 kw model with big surge capacity and that barely turned it over.

 

[DHill]

Wow that is a very impressive setup, thanks for sharing.