propane conundrum

[RustyShackleford]

Having realized that propane is actually more expensive than electric-resistance heating where I live, especially using a time-of-day electrical rate plan, I'm gradually phasing out gas appliances. Replaced the water heater a long time ago, and just installed a new heat pump with heat strips (which will probably almost never run, with the improved cold-weather performance of the heat pump, and climate change).

The one remaining item is the gas cooktop - which we like. I have a 120-gallon tank which will power the cooktop for years, I imagine, but Suburban charges me about $50/year for tank rental. Which is probably about what I spend on actual propane. Buying such a tank is close to $1000. But there's a thing called a 100-lb tank, which holds 20+ gallons and cost $100-200, which I imagine would power the cooktop for close to a year. But for some reason the propane companies won't come out and fill these. You have to cart the tank to U-Haul or somewhere - which would be a bit of a grunt with the 100-lb tank, and the propane costs about twice as much. I guess there's those little tanks like are attached to gas grills, but that'd have to be re-filled several times a year.

So I'm at a loss. Any ideas ?

 

[Montanalocal]

So $50 per year on rent is equal to 20 years worth of the purchase price of your tank. Just for the sake of convenience, I would pay the yearly rent. Especially as you get older.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I’d see if they could do an automatic monthly draw of around $4.25. It’ll cost them more to run the charge, lol. After a couple years, point this out to them. Maybe they’ll sign the tank over, lol

 

[RustyShackleford]

I guess another reason to stick with the 120-gallon tank is that I'm contemplating a dual-fuel generator.

 

[ABMax24]

Keep your 120 gallon. Even buying a 100lb would probably take 5 years to pay off, not including the increased cost of filling it as you mentioned. And then you better have at least a 20lb on hand in case you run the 100lb out half way through cooking.

 

[Pinesmoke]

Look around for a used tank to buy. If the tag is good propane companies will fill it. You usually will get a better price per gallon as an added bonus.

If you end up getting a Genny consider your consumption per hour of runtime into your tank sizing. At half load mine runs at 2 gal an hour. I can't see mine running full time looking at an extended grid outage, just enough to keep freezers cold and maybe my heat pump up if it's summer. I put in a propane furnace to back up my heat pump. It uses less propane to run than my Genny running to light up heat strips.

With my wood stove I figured the only time the furnace would be needed is if we aren't here to load the stove.

I only have a propane stove, the furnace and my Genny that runs on propane. With a 1000 gallon tank I should be able to be solid for quite a while for a serious grid issue. The tank is pretty much storage for the Genny.

 

[EbS-P]

Have you tried an induction range?

 

[RustyShackleford]

Look around for a used tank to buy. If the tag is good propane companies will fill it. You usually will get a better price per gallon as an added bonus.

That's a thought. I think my neighbor found one, so he could bury it.

I put in a propane furnace to back up my heat pump. It uses less propane to run than my Genny running to light up heat strips.

I don't really plan on trying to heat with anything except the woodstove during power outages, so that's moot. And even so, around here, and with the cold-weather performance of this new heat pump, the heat strips wouldn't run much.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Have you tried an induction range?

Got one of those at mountain house and like it. But prefer the gas one here. Mtn place needed a new stove anyhow (gas ovens suck). And mtn house didn't have a real vent hood (recircs into house) whereas main house has a flue.

 

[Highbeam]

You should be able to roll around a 100# tank on a hand truck. It's only heavy getting it out of the truck. There are also 40# propane tanks. Get a couple of those if the 100# is too bulky.

Our propane is cheapest at the gas station. Cheaper than delivered. Weird that yours is cheaper delivered.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

It probably depends on where you get the propane. Some places have better prices than others.

 

[mellow]

Not to mention they will charge you to empty the tank, while pocketing the free gas and they will charge you for digging it up to remove it.

I have a couple friends going through this process right now with suburban.

 

[coaly]

I use two 20# cylinders with an auto change-over regulator. Only need fuel a few times a year. If you have a bbq grill, that gives you an extra. Cylinders are available in 30 and 40# sizes as well.

You can buy 100# cylinders, but should still use a change-over regulator so when one empties, it switches over to the other cylinder. You can remove the empty cylinder to fill it, and manually reset the regulator to switch over when the cylinder in use is empty.

100# cylinders cannot be put inside an enclosed vehicle. They must be strapped in an open bed, vertical.

Cylinders are not only sized for having enough liquid propane on site to avoid constant refilling. Cylinders are sized for the wetted surface area that the liquid contacts the cylinder or tank walls. Heat from the atmosphere boils LP to vaporize it and maintain pressure. So colder climates require more wetted surface area to maintain pressure. That is the reason for horizontal ASME tanks that have more surface area as liquid gets low, compared to a vertical DOT cylinder.

Retired propane service owner.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Cylinders are not only sized for having enough liquid propane on site to avoid constant refilling. Cylinders are sized for the wetted surface area that the liquid contacts the cylinder or tank walls. Heat from the atmosphere boils LP to vaporize it and maintain pressure. So colder climates require more wetted surface area to maintain pressure. That is the reason for horizontal ASME tanks that have more surface area as liquid gets low, compared to a vertical DOT cylinder.

Fascinating, I did not know this. So are there tables showing how much wetted surface is needed to support a certain number of btus/hr at various outdoor temps ?

 

[begreen]

Propane companies like Suburban and Amerigas are a racket. They get a captive market and then milk it with high pricing. North of us, Cenex sells propane for less than half our local price.

Our house had a propane furnace when we bought it. I pulled the plug and told them to take their tank 18 yrs ago. That year I switched to a heat pump and a good wood stove. We can have long outages and we are in an earthquake area that could lose services for an extended period of time, so I kept the propane cooktop and bought a 120 gal tank. It was about $450 back then. This lasts us about 3 yrs on a refill. Our propane generator is on its own 100# tank and we have smaller 20 pounders for the BBQ and pizza oven. For short outages we have only run the generator on one of the 20# bottles.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yeah, maybe I can get a used 120-gallon for cheaper. I'd use it for the cooktop, and do a quick-connect for a dual-fuel generator. A good place to build a little lean-to for the generator is also very good location for running the line to the cooktop. Probably said above, just replaced our dual-fuel heat pump with one with electric heat strips for backup; electrical panel is full, but it needs replacing anyhow.

BTW, people said it's not worth paying $1000 or so for a tank if I can rent for 20 years for that much dough. But it also gives me the option of shopping around for per-gallon price on refill , which might save me a lot more than $50/year.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I don’t think I’d buy a used tank. All you need is somebody to suggest in a couple years it needs to be recertified and you’d have lot deal with that annoyance.

 

[begreen]

I don’t think I’d buy a used tank. All you need is somebody to suggest in a couple years it needs to be recertified and you’d have lot deal with that annoyance.

That can happen anyway. They love padding the bill. Amerigas wanted to rectify our tank because it had been over 5 yrs since the last. Fortunately, I got a different person the second time I called for the refill appt. and that person never mentioned the recertification.

 

[mellow]

My 2 cents, my last house had NG, so the wife was happy with having a gas stove. Our current house is electric only and she is less than thrilled with the electric stove, but now I am happier because I don't have to stress about possible gas leaks.

If anyone has an electric stove that is just as good as gas I am all ears as it would make dinner time less stressful with pans flying around

 

[stoveliker]

I think induction cooking is the electric closest to gas performance; quicker (more responsive ) than resistive electric.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Hmm, Lowes claims this 100lb tank can be refilled on-site: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Flame-King-Steel-Propane-Tank/5015006787

Does that make sense ? Is the reason most smaller tanks can't be re-filled on site have to do with the valving on top, and not just with the policy of the propane suppliers ? The valve sure looks like the one on my current 120-gal tank (that I'm renting from Suburban).

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Im sure it’s a policy thing. It probably costs more to get the truck to your house than they make on filling a 100lb tank.

 

[begreen]

Hmm, Lowes claims this 100lb tank can be refilled on-site: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Flame-King-Steel-Propane-Tank/5015006787

Does that make sense ? Is the reason most smaller tanks can't be re-filled on site have to do with the valving on top, and not just with the policy of the propane suppliers ? The valve sure looks like the one on my current 120-gal tank (that I'm renting from Suburban).

I get ours refilled at the local ACE hardware service center.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Called one company and they said "no, 120-gallon is smallest we fill" and I said "is it technical or is it just a policy thing" and she said "it's technical, something to do with the valve" and I said "I found a tank with a valve looks just like my 120gallon and says it can be filled on-site" and she said "well, 120-gallons is the smallest we fill".

 

[coaly]

Fascinating, I did not know this. So are there tables showing how much wetted surface is needed to support a certain number of btus/hr at various outdoor temps ?

Here’s a sizing chart;

Propane Tank Sizing - Tarantin Industries

www.tarantin.com