Progress Hybrid cat question / smoke smell

[charly]

I've done this job, but instead of the double gasket, I replaced the original gasket and added the ResBond per WS's instructions. It's not a 15 minute job, let me tell you. For the first time, probably 1.5 hours. If I did it ten times, maybe an hour.

What took the time,, just cleaning the gasket surfaces?

 

[Boiler74]

What took the time,, just cleaning the gasket surfaces?

Just the whole project. You have to remove the two cast corner pieces, these rods that tie the top and bottom together, then the door, door frame, remove the old gasket, clean, the install the new. Then put it back together, install the rods, corners, etc. It isn't wham-bam-thank you ma'am work. Because you are around the stone you have to be careful with it. Oh, and you have to remove the stone above the door frame. It's just methodical work, being careful, and a lot of steps. It's not 15 minutes worth.

 

[charly]

Well, at least it's a one time thing, and doing it yourself allows you to take your time and do a pin neat job... I'll be taking the Hybrid plunge soon, trading up from my Fireview.. After talking with Jamie,,, they do want to make sure that everyone has solved any smoke issues..so no one is left smelling smoke...That doesn't sound like too bad of a job to do...yes unfortunate that it happened, but at least you have a fix completed .

 

[Boiler74]

Well, at least it's a one time thing, and doing it yourself allows you to take your time and do a pin neat job... I'll be taking the Hybrid plunge soon, trading up from my Fireview.. After talking with Jamie,,, they do want to make sure that everyone has solved any smoke issues..so no one is left smelling smoke...That doesn't sound like too bad of a job to do...yes unfortunate that it happened, but at least you have a fix completed .

Problem is doing that didn't fix my smoke smell. So you can do the work, and then have to wonder where else the smell is coming from.

 

[charly]

Crap So you are still getting smoke smell from where ? Same spot? What did Woodstock say!

 

[Boiler74]

Crap So you are still getting smoke smell from where ? Same spot? What did Woodstock say!

There are more areas that are suspected of leaking the smell, and they are working on it. See Lorin's post about that. They know that the door frame fix didn't work for me, and are putting together a protocol to get it fixed. At this point I'm going to trust that and work with them. And be patient. I'm not that good at being patient, so that is hard.

 

[rdust]

I've done this job, but instead of the double gasket, I replaced the original gasket and added the ResBond per WS's instructions. It's not a 15 minute job, let me tell you. For the first time, probably 1.5 hours. If I did it ten times, maybe an hour.

Did it fix the smell? Nevermind I should've read more before asking the question.

 

[Brick (ware)House]

Looking for status updates from those of you who were unfortunate to get the "smoke smell" stoves. Did everyone get resolution to the issue or just stop commenting on it? I was delivered a defective, "smoky" stove and was patient enough to wait for the door fix kit while breathing god knows what. Long story short the problem was only temporarily resolved as this week the smell (and associated burning nose) came back with a vengeance. Anyone out there have the same issue? I am not apt to continue putting a band-aid solution on a problem with potential health risks, especially considering that Woodstock had the option of a recall and replacement of the defective stoves the first go round. Out of curiosity, was anyone offered the option to return the defective stove for the properly engineered and constructed "updated" version or was everyone encouraged to wait for and self-install the stopgap, door fix kit?

 

[Boiler74]

Ok, I guess I'm far enough down the road to finally share my story and my embarrassment about this subject. As you can probably see in my sig, I don't have a PH anymore. I wish I did. And let me start out by saying that Woodstock is an amazing company. I wish every company I dealt with operated like them.

I fought and fought and fought the smoke smell. Did all the modifications sent to me by WS. And finally was sent a replacement stove from WS. All at no cost to me. Nothing worked. So I finally asked that they take the stove back and they did.

So, I went out to my local stove shop and got an F600. Nice stove and it heats well. But it's just not the PH. But guess what..... I got the same kind of smoke smell from it.

Now, in trying to find a solution when I had the PH, I bought a manometer to measure air pressure differentials. Basically it will tell you the pressure different between the outside of you house as compared to the inside. To put it rather crudely, it will tell if you house "sucks" or "blows."

Quick lesson on house air pressure. A house usually has negative pressure (sucks) on the lower levels, then a neutral pressure plan in the middle, and then positive house pressure (blows) on the upper areas. So air is sucked into the lower levels of the house and escapes the upper levels of then house by positive pressure (blows). The more technical explanation is air moves from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure. The warm air at the top of your house is higher pressure than the colder air outside, so air moves to it.

So, what I learned is I had negative pressure throughout about 75% of my house. Basically, my neutral pressure plane was on the second floor. So by house truly "sucked" a lot of air. The PH..... and the F600, didn't like this negative pressure and would leak air at times. Neither did it all time, but when conditions were right it did. I had great draft... measured once again with the manometer and confirmed by WS, but still smell.

So, what did I do? I added two foot of insulated pipe to the top of my insulated liner, making it about 24'. And topped that with a vacustack cap. I do have trees around and thought maybe they played into it. Still smelled.

So, I really started to examine air flow in the house. About my house....... I have cathedral ceilings and very open with a loft bedroom. And I "thought" I did a good job air sealing when I built in 2005. Spray foam on the walls, well sealed windows, etc. But I started caulking everything I could, to no avail.

Then one day I thought about the ductwork. Think about it. If you have ductwork in running from your basement to your attic, that duct acts like an internal chimney. And if the duct work isn't sealed in the attic, warm air is escaping due to the stack effect through those gaps in the ducts. So, I temporarily blocked air flow inside a couple of ducts and I also put that Press and Seal kitchen wrap over the air returns. TA DA!! No smell.

So, here's where I'll share one of my wildest attempts to stop this permanently. I bought a fog machine.... the kind you use on halloween. And I filled my house with it to find the leaks. Yep, filled it. And I saw fog escaping out of my upper attic space through the soffit vents. I was also able to visualize the fog moving through the ductwork.

Here's the fun part. The ductwork in that attic space is not easily accessible. I couldn't crawl to it. I'm 6'7", 255. No way my body would fit in there. So, on a nice spring day, on my second story roof, I pulled the shingles gently, cut the roof deck about the duct work, and sealed it that way. Then put it all back together. I also worked on sealing all other ductwork in the basement. And it made a big difference, but I still couldn't remove the "temporary" seals on the air returns.

So, I kept going. I am lucky that I built this house and have a ton of pictures taken during construction. So I can see where the duct work runs and where the joints are. So I could cut holes in the wall to access the ducts and seal the joints.

But, I finally had the big AH HA moment. I have a mechanical chase that has a couple duct runs. I cut an access and actually got in that chase to seal those ducts. Two story, probably 3x3, so doable but tight. Luckily I have a ladder that goes from about 2' and extends to 12.5', so I could get it in there and get to the top of the chase. And I found a huge air leak. That leak was pulling air out of the ducts in the chase and contributing to the negative pressure. After I foamed that air leak I was able to take the temporary Press and Seal kitchen wrap off the ductwork and burn smell free.

Ok, I won't say that I don't get a little smell once in a while. While I lowered my neutral pressure plane, it's not where I wish it was and where it's supposed to be, that is on the main floor right where the stove is. But I only get smell on start up when the door is cracked to get the stove going. And only on a very rare once in a while when conditions are right for it. There is still some more sealing of ductwork I can do and I'm slowly working on it.

So, moral of my story is that your setup may be great..... insulated liner, plenty of height, block off plate, good windows, OAK, dry wood, etc..... and still get smell. I did. And I'm not saying that this is what is going on with everyone with the smell. But I would strongly suggest that you look inside you building system before getting rid of the stove. An easy way to look for air pressure differentials is to crack a window and hold a burning piece if incense to the crack. If it is blown back into the house, you are in the negative pressure area. If it is sucked outside through the crack, you are in the positive pressure area. And if it doesn't do either you are in the neutral pressure plane. If your stove is in the basement this will be a harder fight because basements are almost always negative. But I'm sure there are a lot of stoves in basements that don't smell. I can only share my story.

I wish I had had my epiphany about the ducts while I still had the PH here, but it wasn't until also getting the smell from the F600 that I started to look deeper into the house. I like the F600 but truly wish i had the PH back. And maybe I will some day, but I bought some land and have to pay that off first. Heck, WS may not want to sell me another one!! And I apologize for not sharing my story sooner. A bit embarrassed by it I guess, and I didn't "fix" it until just a month ago. I've been working at this for two years I think. I'm glad that I can finally have the HVAC system in the house unobstructed again and set to 60 as a backup to the stove. Just wish I had known what I know now when I built 12 years ago. But that is the way with life.

Hope this helps someone. Josh

 

[3fordasho]

I purchased one of the very early (special pricing) PH's and had the smoke smell. Woodstock eventually replaced it with a new one or like new refurb with the updates. The replacement mostly resolved the problem but I think I experienced a bit of smell every now and again. Shortly there after I moved it to a different house and went from a Selkirk class A chimney of about 15-18' to a insulated 25' liner in a brick fireplace chimney. No smells at all now during normal operation* So was it the stove or the house/chimney? Perhaps both but I think the increased draft at the new place helped a lot.
The new place is also much tighter (spray foamed early eighties construction vs 1880's balloon frame blown in cellulose insulation) so sometimes I have trouble with reversed draft but once the chimney is warm - no problems.

* I'll still get a bit of smell but it's always because I've had the door open or have shut the air down to fast causing back puffing.

 

[BuckyBeaver524]

Did the fix with the door gasket kit a few years ago and it completely solved the problem. Love the stove.

 

[fire_man]

Hope this helps someone. Josh

Nothing at all to be embarrassed at and thanks for explaining so well. I know of at least one other person who gave up on his Progress due to the smoke smell. I always suspected it was a draft related issue. Did you share this info with WS? I know they would REALLY appreciate it.

I'm extremely impressed with your tenacity to resolve this. Two stories up peeling shingles, not for me.

 

[georgepds]

Ok, I guess I'm far enough down the road to finally share my story and my embarrassment about this subject. As you can probably see in my sig, I don't have a PH anymore. I wish I did. And let me start out by saying that Woodstock is an amazing company. I wish every company I dealt with operated like them.

I fought and fought and fought the smoke smell. Did all the modifications sent to me by WS. And finally was sent a replacement stove from WS. All at no cost to me. Nothing worked. So I finally asked that they take the stove back and they did.

So, I went out to my local stove shop and got an F600. Nice stove and it heats well. But it's just not the PH. But guess what..... I got the same kind of smoke smell from it.

Now, in trying to find a solution when I had the PH, I bought a manometer to measure air pressure differentials. Basically it will tell you the pressure different between the outside of you house as compared to the inside. To put it rather crudely, it will tell if you house "sucks" or "blows."

Quick lesson on house air pressure. A house usually has negative pressure (sucks) on the lower levels, then a neutral pressure plan in the middle, and then positive house pressure (blows) on the upper areas. So air is sucked into the lower levels of the house and escapes the upper levels of then house by positive pressure (blows). The more technical explanation is air moves from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure. The warm air at the top of your house is higher pressure than the colder air outside, so air moves to it.

So, what I learned is I had negative pressure throughout about 75% of my house. Basically, my neutral pressure plane was on the second floor. So by house truly "sucked" a lot of air. The PH..... and the F600, didn't like this negative pressure and would leak air at times. Neither did it all time, but when conditions were right it did. I had great draft... measured once again with the manometer and confirmed by WS, but still smell.

So, what did I do? I added two foot of insulated pipe to the top of my insulated liner, making it about 24'. And topped that with a vacustack cap. I do have trees around and thought maybe they played into it. Still smelled.

So, I really started to examine air flow in the house. About my house....... I have cathedral ceilings and very open with a loft bedroom. And I "thought" I did a good job air sealing when I built in 2005. Spray foam on the walls, well sealed windows, etc. But I started caulking everything I could, to no avail.

Then one day I thought about the ductwork. Think about it. If you have ductwork in running from your basement to your attic, that duct acts like an internal chimney. And if the duct work isn't sealed in the attic, warm air is escaping due to the stack effect through those gaps in the ducts. So, I temporarily blocked air flow inside a couple of ducts and I also put that Press and Seal kitchen wrap over the air returns. TA DA!! No smell.

So, here's where I'll share one of my wildest attempts to stop this permanently. I bought a fog machine.... the kind you use on halloween. And I filled my house with it to find the leaks. Yep, filled it. And I saw fog escaping out of my upper attic space through the soffit vents. I was also able to visualize the fog moving through the ductwork.

Here's the fun part. The ductwork in that attic space is not easily accessible. I couldn't crawl to it. I'm 6'7", 255. No way my body would fit in there. So, on a nice spring day, on my second story roof, I pulled the shingles gently, cut the roof deck about the duct work, and sealed it that way. Then put it all back together. I also worked on sealing all other ductwork in the basement. And it made a big difference, but I still couldn't remove the "temporary" seals on the air returns.

So, I kept going. I am lucky that I built this house and have a ton of pictures taken during construction. So I can see where the duct work runs and where the joints are. So I could cut holes in the wall to access the ducts and seal the joints.

But, I finally had the big AH HA moment. I have a mechanical chase that has a couple duct runs. I cut an access and actually got in that chase to seal those ducts. Two story, probably 3x3, so doable but tight. Luckily I have a ladder that goes from about 2' and extends to 12.5', so I could get it in there and get to the top of the chase. And I found a huge air leak. That leak was pulling air out of the ducts in the chase and contributing to the negative pressure. After I foamed that air leak I was able to take the temporary Press and Seal kitchen wrap off the ductwork and burn smell free.

Ok, I won't say that I don't get a little smell once in a while. While I lowered my neutral pressure plane, it's not where I wish it was and where it's supposed to be, that is on the main floor right where the stove is. But I only get smell on start up when the door is cracked to get the stove going. And only on a very rare once in a while when conditions are right for it. There is still some more sealing of ductwork I can do and I'm slowly working on it.

So, moral of my story is that your setup may be great..... insulated liner, plenty of height, block off plate, good windows, OAK, dry wood, etc..... and still get smell. I did. And I'm not saying that this is what is going on with everyone with the smell. But I would strongly suggest that you look inside you building system before getting rid of the stove. An easy way to look for air pressure differentials is to crack a window and hold a burning piece if incense to the crack. If it is blown back into the house, you are in the negative pressure area. If it is sucked outside through the crack, you are in the positive pressure area. And if it doesn't do either you are in the neutral pressure plane. If your stove is in the basement this will be a harder fight because basements are almost always negative. But I'm sure there are a lot of stoves in basements that don't smell. I can only share my story.

I wish I had had my epiphany about the ducts while I still had the PH here, but it wasn't until also getting the smell from the F600 that I started to look deeper into the house. I like the F600 but truly wish i had the PH back. And maybe I will some day, but I bought some land and have to pay that off first. Heck, WS may not want to sell me another one!! And I apologize for not sharing my story sooner. A bit embarrassed by it I guess, and I didn't "fix" it until just a month ago. I've been working at this for two years I think. I'm glad that I can finally have the HVAC system in the house unobstructed again and set to 60 as a backup to the stove. Just wish I had known what I know now when I built 12 years ago. But that is the way with life.

Hope this helps someone. Josh

Did you try opening a window? I know it lets in the cold air.. but it does equalize pressure

My wife wants to know if you are married? She thinks I'm crazy for cutting a hole in the roof and putting in a trap door to make chimney cleaning easier

 

[huauqui]

I'm extremely impressed with your tenacity to resolve this. Two stories up peeling shingles, not for me.

+1 to what fire_man said!

 

[3fordasho]

Curious what other owners are seeing for stove top temps on a regular basis? Like I reported in my original posts in this thread mine will hit 400F and seldom over that. I run two of the Woodstock stove top thermometers, located on the cast portion on both sides of the blocked top flue outlet. They tend to read the same. I only ask because another thread mentions 600F stove top temps on a start up load... must be throwing some serious heat at that temp. I can't get that on a reload on hot coals much less a start up load. Wood has been split/stacked 3 years, then two years inside. I just gave the cat the vinegar/distilled water wash and it performed slightly better for a couple burns then right back to 350-400ish top temps.

 

[fire_man]

My WS thermometer is mounted dead center on the plate that covers the top-vent opening (My PH is rear vent). It never peaks above 450F with 5 year seasoned Oak.

 

[Boiler74]

Did you try opening a window? I know it lets in the cold air.. but it does equalize pressure

My wife wants to know if you are married? She thinks I'm crazy for cutting a hole in the roof and putting in a trap door to make chimney cleaning easier

If only it had been as simple as opening a window. And yes, I'm single. I've got urinals in my bathrooms too!

 

[Boiler74]

+1 to what fire_man said!

Thanks to you both. Just trying to solve a problem.

 

[Boiler74]

Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[weatherguy]

I like to run mine at 550, even lower in mild weather like we've been having but mine would run too 700 if I didn't watch it closely. When it's down around zero it'll go to 650 whether I want it to or not.

 

[DBoon]

Jeez, I'm 5'-9" and 145 lbs. and I'm not fitting in the attic where that duct runs.

 

[begreen]

Any duct run in the attic should be fully sealed and insulated. The temperature swings are too great there.

 

[Boiler74]

Any duct run in the attic should be fully sealed and insulated. The temperature swings are too great there.

Where were you when I built 11 years ago?! Ha!

Totally agree by the way.

 

[3fordasho]

I like to run mine at 550, even lower in mild weather like we've been having but mine would run too 700 if I didn't watch it closely. When it's down around zero it'll go to 650 whether I want it to or not.

Where do you run your air control at? Mine is usually just cracked open a bit from the closed position, enough to maintain some flame in the box at all times. On a hot reload, if there is plenty of secondary action I will shut it all the way down. Pretty rare for it to go above 425f on the stove top. At this temp it's heating the room just fine, just curious why others are seeing much higher temps.

 

[begreen]

Where were you when I built 11 years ago?! Ha!

Totally agree by the way.

Sorry. My dad taught me that back in the 60s when installing HVAC systems. If space was an issue we would put in an insulating lining inside the ductwork.