Princess PE-32, my second year. Stove pipe, blower, stack height, shields, and damper type questions.

[RDPRDP]

Hello all,

I've been a lurker for the last few years, and this forum helped me decide on a Princess PE-32 to replace the Dutch West circa 199x Catalytic Extra Large that was in the house when I bought the place and I was unable to rescue it (warped panels from abuse, and very finicky), and I am very happy with the decision. I am about to enter my second year with it, and have some questions that are specific to my setup, so while good advice in other threads has helped me understand a lot I have issues and I'd like to know where I should be focusing my energy on first.

Note: Any action on items below can be independent of each other, I don't need to do all the work at once as I'm happy to compartmentalize each issue until it is resolved. I also enjoy other peoples setup photos, so I've included mine.

1.1 Double wall stove pipe: I currently have single wall, and I am aware that BK recommends double wall to keep the heat and the draft intact. I've got a contractor that is asking for USD $1,200 for parts and labour to change-out my roughly 6 feet of single wall (distance to the connecting box) for double wall with a damper (more on the damper later). In this estimate he has listed everything as stainless, and the parts include an adapter, a damper, the pipe, a coupler, and two locking bands. Is this highway robbery, or generally in the ballpark for this kind of parts and labor? He hasn't indicated any of the brands he would source, should I be asking him to provide?

1.2. Features on the double wall stove pipe: My draft is discussed below, but I'm currently set to pay extra to have a double wall damper installed. If I will consistently have to be dealing with poor draft do I need to pay the extra to have the damper option? I also asked for access holes in the double wall for a manometer, what size and where should these be, or is somewhere else better?

2. Stack height: My place is 3,200ft (975m) above sea level. Roof exit, all straight. From stove to exit I guess I have around 13 feet. However, my chimney cap sits well below the roof ridge/peak, and is impossible to reach without heavy machinery, and might require that I bring down a tree to reach it, or three stories of scaffolding, neither option is cheap or simple. However while I think my stove drafts well I have had a few times during the season where very heavy winds outside pushed smoke into my room. I do not have a manometer to check the current setup, but I think while draft is probably fine, I need to figure out a way to deal with the downbursts. Without replacing all the Class A I've been told by two contractors that if they could reach the roof they could add a little more height to the current setup before having to replace everything, but if I can install a manometer on either my current single wall or potentially the new double wall setup I guess I'd know for sure. To confirm, I am not/not in compliance with the 3-2-10 rule.

3. Blower: I feel I want the blower, but my electric grid is 100V 50hz, and as far as I know the blowers are wired for 120V 60hz. Even with a transformer (which I really do not want to use) I still have the line frequency 60hz vs 50hz issue to deal with, and that will cause early burnout somewhere in the chain on the blower. I could go crazy and convert 100v 50hz AC to DC, then DC to 120v 60hz, but I'd really just like BK to have a product that caters to it's international audience by having a universal power option, or at least being able to spec other power options. Are there other options for me with this to address this issue such as gutting it for local parts? Is there a transformer I could get rewound????

4. Shields on my Ultra: As the picture shows have ample space on the left and right hand side of the stove. The left shield comes off easy, but the right one once removed leaves the thermostat dangling inappropriately, and no holes to put the thermostat brace back onto as the holes for it are on the shield itself. Is this by design? Am I missing something? If I just take off the left shield and leave the right side one on does it affect the performance of the thermostat or some other process? If I leave the right hand side on due to the issue I have should I leave the left on on as well? Is there really a worthwhile improvement by taking the shields off, or does the heat still reach the room eventually through the top of the stove?

A few stats:
1. I burn mostly purchased air dried wood (hardwood mix, mostly oak) around the 20% moisture level on a fresh split. Sometimes I have pine or cedar in the mix.
2. I feel my burn times are low compared to other people on this forum, and need to do a full re-load every 12 hours when the dial is set to around 4:30pm. If I go below 3:00pm the cat can go out, I assume this is caused by poor draft.

Happy to answer any questions.

thanks,
RDP

 

[BKVP]

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Leave the sides on. It was safety tested that way.

Cool looking install.

BKVP

 

[EbS-P]

If you sweep it and it’s clean enough I’d say you have a good install. You could install the double wall. But the benefits will only be during warmer weather. You don’t need a damper. If your warm and the pipe is clean enough why change it.

 

[stoveliker]

At your elevation and flue stack height, no damper. I believe the stove recommends a 15 ft height so you're short already, leading to lower draft. The elevation doesn't help either.

The stove is designed to shed its heat as designed, and does so well with the shields. I wouldn't adapt the design to try to get more out.

 

[EbS-P]

Following up on the blower. It moves heat more quickly all you to run hot with same stove top temps. If getting cold house up to temp quickly is a control want address would adapt an available 100V 50 hz blower

 

[RDPRDP]

Thank you uall for your input! A few updates:

Stack height & damper & double wall: I had guessed low at 13ft, it is according to my stove pipe person I'm actually more like just a hair under 15ft. stoveliker noted that 15ft was probably the recommended height, so being just below justified me not needed to install a damper, especially after taking into account my evelation at 3,200ft. After taking the hint from stoveliker I consulted the manual, and at my elevation the actual recommendation is for 16.5ft, so I am quite below the recommended height. No damper for me then, and considering I need all the draft I can get to compensate for the low stack height and my inability to easily add height outside to the termination I've basically set my mind on moving to double wall stove pipe.

Shields on my Ultra: I took note of the multiple comments to not mess with them, so that is settled then; they stay where they are.

Blower: EbS-P mentioned "adapt an available 100V 50hz" blower. I actually have a blower that was given to me, but I believe it is for an older model of Princess (doesn't fit to mine). I'll post a picture in the coming days and see if anyone thinks it can be modified to fit, then I could try to swap out the insides for 100V 50hz compatible guts. Got a feeling this blower is not going to be easy to modify to fit however.

thanks all!
RDP

 

[stoveliker]

good choice going double wall stove pipe.

 

[RDPRDP]

As promised, pictures of the blower. 115V 60hz 24w Bomax Type B-TP 904-6986 fans.

 

[Murray01]

As far as changing to double walled stove pipe it’s a DIY job. I installed a telescopic double walled stovepipe 6” diameter 38” to 68” for $209.99 plus tax Canadian dollars. Makes cleaning ash and droppings from the chimney sweep that accumulate on the top of the firebox a breeze. Undo 3 screws, slide the double walled pipe up as far as you need for vacuum access…

 

[RDPRDP]

As far as changing to double walled stove pipe it’s a DIY job. I installed a telescopic double walled stovepipe 6” diameter 38” to 68” for $209.99 plus tax Canadian dollars. Makes cleaning ash and droppings from the chimney sweep that accumulate on the top of the firebox a breeze. Undo 3 screws, slide the double walled pipe up as far as you need for vacuum access…

Thanks for the input! I recently pulled the plug and went to double wall, and the performance improvement is significant as I now have about five more hours of burn (sometimes more), less smoke out the cap, and more heat haze (from the cap).

I didn't go the DIY route as I bought my place used, and didn't know the particulars about what I needed to tuly buy to connect to the current ceiling connection box. I spend way too much money on it, and well, as the money is now gone from my bank account not going to cry about the cost, and just enjoy the excellent outcome. Best decision I made regarding upgrading my setup to be more Blaze King friendly.

RDP

 

[BKVP]

Well done RDP!

BKVP

 

[RDPRDP]

It has been a few weeks since my double-wall (with installation) interior stove pipe install. I see a lot of people here with amazing burn times, and to be honest, I'm jealous. Currently I'm burning purchased wood with a decent MC, and it is a "hardwood mix", about 50% oak, and I have a supply of pine I mix in as well. All pieces are just the right length for N/S loading, but depending on the wood provider I can occasionally have some smaller splits that go in, but I always pack the firebox full.

All this to say in my drafty, scribed log house, two floors to heat, high ceilings, about 1,800sqft, I can only do 12 hour burns that really mean something when the temperature is averaging around -5c (23f). I could go to about 15 hours, but then I'm supplementing the heat in the house with a small kerosene heater. I think my stove performs well, is it really just that a scribed log house (40+ years old) with its charm points (I have quite a few separation issues to deal with at the corners of the house) and a minimum length 15ft chimney (stove to cap) are the cause?

Wondering what to do next in terms of trying to get these great burn times that people see to have. Considering the stove works on the throttle, even if my house is cold and drafty (good oxygen for the stove), shouldn't I be able to run around 4pm on the dial (this setting for me is about the maximum I can turn it up without having active flames) and get a long burn? Note: Anything lower than 3pm on the dial and I risk a stall once the load is 50% or less.

I'm also looking for any recommendations on a good log home/cabin forum if anyone has a place they like to frequent.

thank you all,
RDP

 

[stoveliker]

The long burn times are *always* with lower heat output.
The output is the total BTU content of the load of wood, divided by the number of hours that you distribute that heat. (And some efficiency factors...,)

So I think that your need for heat is simply larger than a 24 hour burn could provide.

Regarding stalling below a certain thermostat setting, each system is different there. This depends a lot on flue height. Remember that the air flow through the firebox is provided by the suction of the flue (draft), and squeezed (controlled , but only up to the maximum provided by the flue) by the thermostat and air flow impedances. You're at the minimum flue height recommended, so the air supply to the firebox is minimum, leading to you having to decrease the squeezing by the thermostat to maintain sufficient flow so the system remains active. I.e. short flues often need the thermostat open wide.

What is the elevation above sea level of your home? The higher you are the poorer your draft (adding flue height is then a useful thing.)

No flame until 3-4 pm on the thermostat is not strange. I see the same here.

The range in which you can move the thermostat to control the stove (between stall and wide open throttle) is much smaller than the full swoosh indication.
So it requires some fine tuning to figure out the lowest setting that can work for you.

Finally,.bought wood is (here) almost never dry enough. Do you know how dry your wood is?
The longest burn times need the best (dry) wood. How long do you burn high after reloading before you dial the thermostat down?

 

[BKVP]

Can you please post a picture of a "full load"?

BKVP

 

[moresnow]

Your 4-3 normal operating range is not unheard of. Your burn time doesn't sound terribly unrealistic considering the outside temps and required heat load. 23F with a log home structure (scribed) takes some btu's in my experience.
Sounds like an air sealing issue could be addressed. Just a guess.

 

[RDPRDP]

Correction to previous post: I have a mix of cedar, not pine that I add from a purchase from last year.

MC: Will do three splits this upcoming weekend and report as I currently have wood from three suppliers in my inventory.

Full load picture: Oh no, the Tetris police! I'll take a picture this weekend and upload.

Sealing the house: Backing rod and caulking is normally the way I've had sealing done, and I've had a contractor work this year on the obvious spots, but one or two horizontal runs (groove) have some big voids (only access from inside without having scaffolding outside) where it says to me that spray foam is required for this long horizontal void as backing rod and caulking doesn't seem to be a good fit for the size of the space. But for some reason I'm hesitant to use foam; I worry about doing something that will be bad for the wood in the long run, so more research is needed.

Char on load/re-load before turning down: I wait for the inferno to reach everything, then usually do a two stop or three stop reduction down to reach the final setting. I'm pretty close to the manual in this regard - I give it around 15-20 minutes on average on high. However, I do not like to burn too much as then I feel I'm eating into my burn time; it depends on the load. Sometimes not absolutely every split is in full flames as the packing of the firebox for the load hasn't permitted everything to be fully lit. I often turn down as well when my thermometer just above the Princess door latch goes in the "too hot zone" by 100f. Everyone says you cannot over fire if all settings are good (gaskets), but even though I've tested door and bypass gaskets, how do I know everything is "fine"? I don't trust the system to not over fire, is there a limit on the thermometer I've set above the latch (will send picture) I can assign that I can look at to make sure the system doesn't go over what it can handle? And last year I had an over fire off of 2x4 ends (look like squares) I was using as kindling/starter with the door closed and bypass open, so extra wary - but it was my fault for using too much of that fuel. Lesson learned.

Pictures this weekend!

RDP

 

[stoveliker]

Okay. Doesn't sound bad. If the wood is dry, you may be able to start dialing down a bit earlier, but I don't think it'll be a substantial difference in burn times.

Another question:
Are you just wanting to see a e.g. 20 hr burn? Or are you overheating your place now but dialing down farther results in having the cat go inactive?

Also, with a flue below minimum recommended height, I'm not surprised that the cat goes inactive when you dial down to settings that might give you longer burns.

 

[Tron]

Regarding your question about the 100V/50Hz grid: Especially motors don't care that much about the grid frequency and should also run at the reduced voltage.
I've come from a country that uses 230V/50Hz and brought all my tools, which I run on a step-up transformer. We (mostly) have 120V/60Hz here, meaning they now probably get 240V/60Hz (haven't measured the voltage, though) and work as they should.

 

[stoveliker]

Same here. With the exception of my 350 euro Bosch router. That one turned out to have some IC in there that controls the power output, and didn't like the 60 Hz here; rpms kept oscillating...
Bummer.

 

[Tron]

Bosch router

Router?
Not a tool I've heard of...

 

[stoveliker]

Woodworking tool.

 

[RDPRDP]

@stoveliker My elevation is 3,200ft (975m) . My guesstimate on my total flue height is 15ft, but I could be off on that. According to the manual with 0 elbows I should have a minimum of 16.5ft (5.0m). I wish I had a way to properly measure the outside portion, but I don't. On the inside I have 8.2ft (2,5m). At this time of year when I need performance over burn time I think the system works as I don't stall, but would a taller stack give me a longer burn at the same settings? I don't think it would, but would like to hear your thoughts (or anyones).

@stoveliker You asked if I was just looking for a long burn, or having issues dialing down in a overly hot house. I have problems in my drafty scribed log house keeping the place warm, so I need a certain heat output from the stove, but I also don't wan't to load more than twice a day. If I could get 24 per load that would be great, but it seems from the comments that sort of performance is for the shoulder season, in a very well sealed structure.

@BKVP Here is an average "full load" photo. Last night I got 9 hours at 4pm on the dial. I'd like 12, but then heat output is not enough. The more I type about this I feel that my home is just too drafty.


thanks all,
RDP

 

[stoveliker]

That load looks good.

I don't think an aim for longer burn times is useful for you, if you have trouble heating the place. The point is this: your load contains a number of BTUs in the wood. You can release those in a range of hours and the stove design determines what that range is. BK has extended that range to the longer side as compared to many other stoves. BUT the corollary is that during those hours, the BTUs released per hour will be lower given that you have a fixed amount of BTUs to release.

Example: 300,000 BTUs in a wood load, burn for 10 hours, get 30,0000 BTUs per hour. Burn for 20 hours, get 15,000 BTUs per hour. (Scale this with the efficiency of 75%ish of the Princess, but you get the picture.)

Bottomline: If your home is not too hot when you burn 12 hrs per load, then trying to burn 24 hrs is going to leave you cold.

The only caveat here would be if you are pumping too many BTUs up the flue (because avoiding that would mean more BTUs in your room, and thus you could extend your burn time a bit). That can happen if you have too much draft. But that's not likely the case here.

So I think "it is what it is".
Then again, 12 hours per load is good for many other stoves.
Stay warm, be happy with the even output, and enjoy what it does. I don't think it's "not working properly" in any way.

 

[BKVP]

Let's say the 16 pieces you have in this images = 40lbs. This is just a guess.

Can you get a load that = the same 40lbs but in 8 pieces? If you can reduce surface area, you can extend burn times.

Of course, the drafty cabin won't help.

BKVP