price of fire wood/ coal/ pellets.
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Mrs-GVA said:
that 's obvious that you don know what your talking about, the coal is on a skid . and by the way gas prices went down this winter . that means , the price should dropped , not gone up. I' dun talking with you its obvious that you are on the retailer's side .
Corie said:
Hi corie, which mine do you get your coal from , with these delivery charges I think it's wort the drive . and bypass the middle guy. I buy kimmel's pea coal from a hardware store.
alfio said:
WHOA Alfio
! Ease up Buddy...First off...Have you ever "Been In a (public) SERVICE industry...where your 'paycheck' is solely derived from your profit margin???"
Judging by your comments above...you would probably NOT like to do business with "the little guy"...(like me for example...but maybe I'm wrong we'll see).
"Whether I'm pulling wires', cutting trees, grinding stumps...or providing any of my numerous services" my rate is based on "Fair Market...with all associated costs figured in" Now I can't speak for other businesses...but I tell people "You are going to pay a fair and reasonable price keep that in mind". Just because 'the next guy' can do the same job for $50 bucks less doesn't mean I'm going to. Reputable businesses' shouldn't lower their prices to compete with those that "cut corners". Just because the cheaper outfit can beat my price...doesn't mean I'm going to put a pair of pliers or a chainsaw into the hands of someone that an hour ago was nursing a 1/5th or (whatever else you can think of)...the "Bill-able body concept" needs to go "Bye-Bye".
...Capitalism has it's downfalls...downward price trending needs to disapear...the "Lowball outfit" in ANY line of business costs EVERYONE $$$$$...both competing businesses and customers alike. Being (Willing) to Provide a customer...service has it's costs. Would you be willing to pay $180K for a truck, all the overhead to run a business...if you could make more $$$ pushing shopping carts at Home Depot??? (Honestly)
...I "Price things accordingly" specifically because the majority of customers are "like you".
Whatever the price was ($279.6/ton + Delivery???) "Yes Mr Alfio...the price is $279.60 with a $15 TSA(trip, service & admin fee) and a $10 fuel & equipment offset fee"
I'm just using those #'s as an example...I 'guard' the $ structure and can 'sell it'.
The best customer I ever had in this regards...My (at the time) 'Call Manager' handled a request from a potential customer "Out West"...I said 'Handle it according to plan $65 SC,$35 TSA with a $9.65 fuel offset...$109.65 before the tools even get strapped on' ...CM spent the next 10 minutes explaining the whole thing politely (I was 'swamped', booked solid, and committed 16+hrs/day for 3 weeks solid...if I'm going to provide a 'certain notch of service' it has to pay accordingly...but the customer will ultimately get to decide)..."He doesn't care how much $$$...want's a damn Electrician to show up and take his money at this point...he wants SERVICE...'call it boss' ....(This potential customer was so aggravated by the fact nobody was "shooting straight", blowing him off, NOT giving him the answer he wanted...he got to the point when someone said 'Yes' he was enthralled...he "reset" himself). My CM handled it top notch, customer was "reset" and happy someone was finally going to help him...one of the nicest persons you could ever hope to work for too.
"Tell Him Thursday 2:30...We'll be there.." (as smoke poured off my skull, grumbling a few choice words, pounding the desk)
So my question to you Alfio? Are you just grumbling about "nickels and dimes" or do you want SERVICE??? You can't have it both ways...make no illusions about it.
How much coal do you want? What type? And where is it going? I'de be more than happy to quote you a price Sir.
Hope for America...
"..Premium Service...Comes with a Premium Price"- Director of Intermodal Services for BNSF...refering to it's "Stratedgy for the 'Transcon'..."
Interesting discussion as usual, and I don't think anyone is on a "side" although we each play different roles...sometimes we are the consumers of goods and services, and sometimes we are the providers. It is natural to have a different view from opposite sides of the fence.
Here's an interesting little story like this - I talked to a very large pellet supplier recently, and he complained that a lot of his long term customers who he sold to all year - for $250 and up - were now going down the street (or elsewhere) to buy for less....sometimes only $5 or $10 a ton less!
While I felt bad for him, his cost on the pellets in his yard were much more than the $200 or so that you can get them for now. I advised him not to take it personally, and perhaps he should just dump what he has at little or no profit and look around for lower prices.
But he felt that his customers should have some kind of allegiance to buying from him.....a valid request, but we are talking about a fuel here - a commodity, NOT a service where there is a lot of added value or difference in what the customer ends up with. Since the customer has already invested $3,000 in a stove and an installation, he wants payback as soon as possible, and feels better buying at the lowest possible price. That's a part of the game. I have not heard many customers here say "Well, the guy down the road is $279, but I like him so I'm gonna buy those instead of these others for $239".
Certain businesses CAN expect and create customer loyalty...and, yes, there are some pellet and wood suppliers (our own Thomas - NW Fuels among them) who have a certain upscale clientel or similar and have been able to accomplish this. But I see this as the exception, rather than the rule.
As to hard coal, the grades can differ greatly - so you often find (in PA) that one brand is greatly favored over another. Back in the day, Old Company Lehigh was often the only coal that would work well in certain hopper-fed stoves.
But, all in all, the solid fuel market is very price driven, especially for those who use large quantities of the fuels and really hope to save money. For the occasional burner, it may not matter much.....a $300 cord or ton of pellets is looked as as a winters worth, and will not break the bank.
Here's an interesting little story like this - I talked to a very large pellet supplier recently, and he complained that a lot of his long term customers who he sold to all year - for $250 and up - were now going down the street (or elsewhere) to buy for less....sometimes only $5 or $10 a ton less!
While I felt bad for him, his cost on the pellets in his yard were much more than the $200 or so that you can get them for now. I advised him not to take it personally, and perhaps he should just dump what he has at little or no profit and look around for lower prices.
But he felt that his customers should have some kind of allegiance to buying from him.....a valid request, but we are talking about a fuel here - a commodity, NOT a service where there is a lot of added value or difference in what the customer ends up with. Since the customer has already invested $3,000 in a stove and an installation, he wants payback as soon as possible, and feels better buying at the lowest possible price. That's a part of the game. I have not heard many customers here say "Well, the guy down the road is $279, but I like him so I'm gonna buy those instead of these others for $239".
Certain businesses CAN expect and create customer loyalty...and, yes, there are some pellet and wood suppliers (our own Thomas - NW Fuels among them) who have a certain upscale clientel or similar and have been able to accomplish this. But I see this as the exception, rather than the rule.
As to hard coal, the grades can differ greatly - so you often find (in PA) that one brand is greatly favored over another. Back in the day, Old Company Lehigh was often the only coal that would work well in certain hopper-fed stoves.
But, all in all, the solid fuel market is very price driven, especially for those who use large quantities of the fuels and really hope to save money. For the occasional burner, it may not matter much.....a $300 cord or ton of pellets is looked as as a winters worth, and will not break the bank.
Hi key you have a point . but when you're trying to save money on your heating bill and you feel squeezed from all sides you tent to react badly !
Craig makes good point . My job is to save has much money has i can , retailer's are trying to make the most money they can , end of story
Craig makes good point . My job is to save has much money has i can , retailer's are trying to make the most money they can , end of story
well, green split wood/cord (hardwood) is like $150 here. If you want it in pole length you can get it for $55-$65/cord..Thats the way I go..But, you have to invest in a decent saw and I use a gas powered splitter..But I am also young and plan on burning wood for the enxt 40 years (hopefully) so its worth the investment.
I hate it when I have to agree with Craig.... 
Anyhow, its not a "side" thing.....consumer vs retailer. The retailer provides a service for a price, thats it. You, as the consumer have to make a value judgement and decide whether the price is fair, or unfair. If its fair, you acknowledge it by buying from that particular retailer. If its not fair, you go to another retailer and revisit your value judgement again.
Its no secret that I am a retailer. (hey, Craig, if I buy advertising on your site, does that mean you'll be less derisive of my evil Republican tendencies?). When retailing, we find it is a delicate balancing act. We need to turn a profit to eat and pay my employees, but it cant be so high a profit that we price ourselves out of the marketplace. People find that hard to understand. Also, just because my competition does something, doesnt mean it makes sense to do, or for me to do. Stacking product is a good example here. Lets say, I have competition who stacks pellets, coal, whatever. He delivers to your place, will walk it in your garage, and stack it by the back wall, so you dont have to. Thats a great service, if you can make it pay. Then theres me. I'll deliver your pellets at prices I think fair, and charge you for delivery. Ill use my lift to push it into your garage, if I can possibly do it, and not charge extra. But I WILL NOT stack them against the back wall, because it simply takes too much time. A good driver can deliver around 28 tons/day with a lift, generally within a 30 mile radius, unless he works overtime, doesnt eat lunch, etc. Now, how many tons do you think that driver can unload and stack in a day before he gets worn out? So, you, as the consumer make the value judgement basically that you need to...if you really dislike stacking your own pellets, you'll hire my competition. His price is most likely higher, but maybe not high enough to disuade you. If you like my price, you'll buy from me, and realize you are going to have to do a couple hours of work yourself.
I dont "expect" loyalty from anyone. Business is something that needs to be earned all the time.
Anyhow, its not a "side" thing.....consumer vs retailer. The retailer provides a service for a price, thats it. You, as the consumer have to make a value judgement and decide whether the price is fair, or unfair. If its fair, you acknowledge it by buying from that particular retailer. If its not fair, you go to another retailer and revisit your value judgement again.
Its no secret that I am a retailer. (hey, Craig, if I buy advertising on your site, does that mean you'll be less derisive of my evil Republican tendencies?). When retailing, we find it is a delicate balancing act. We need to turn a profit to eat and pay my employees, but it cant be so high a profit that we price ourselves out of the marketplace. People find that hard to understand. Also, just because my competition does something, doesnt mean it makes sense to do, or for me to do. Stacking product is a good example here. Lets say, I have competition who stacks pellets, coal, whatever. He delivers to your place, will walk it in your garage, and stack it by the back wall, so you dont have to. Thats a great service, if you can make it pay. Then theres me. I'll deliver your pellets at prices I think fair, and charge you for delivery. Ill use my lift to push it into your garage, if I can possibly do it, and not charge extra. But I WILL NOT stack them against the back wall, because it simply takes too much time. A good driver can deliver around 28 tons/day with a lift, generally within a 30 mile radius, unless he works overtime, doesnt eat lunch, etc. Now, how many tons do you think that driver can unload and stack in a day before he gets worn out? So, you, as the consumer make the value judgement basically that you need to...if you really dislike stacking your own pellets, you'll hire my competition. His price is most likely higher, but maybe not high enough to disuade you. If you like my price, you'll buy from me, and realize you are going to have to do a couple hours of work yourself.
I dont "expect" loyalty from anyone. Business is something that needs to be earned all the time.
HarryBack said:I hate it when I have to agree with Craig....
(hey, Craig, if I buy advertising on your site, does that mean you'll be less derisive of my evil Republican tendencies?). When retailing, we find it is a delicate balancing act..
Well, to continue with that Radical Honesty Thread, when I first started Hearth.com I imagined retailer listings (on the shops page) were going to be my bread and butter. But if you think customers are a PITA, well.....let's just say that I can spend $1000 on a mailing and get 3 dealers that sign up for $295 yearly listings - then they will need 3 reminders to pay their bill!
A few years into it I came to the conclusion that dealers often don't know what is best for them, and they go spending thousands a month on the newspaper and yellow pages, but can't see spending $25 a month on a hearth.com listing!
So now manufacturers, direct marketers and google pay the bills....yes, we love our dealers, but they have to pay ME to get a listing and they get no political capital in return! :cheese:
Heck, and anyone who admits GOP tendencies in this day and age is a brave man! Just watched Lou Dobbs ask a GOP operative to name ONE republican in the current administration who he feels is doing a great job. After a pause, the GOP guys said "our troops in Iraq". (pretty funny answer)
what was that last democratic president's name? don't tell me, let me guess... he did a lot of things... had 8 years... hang on... come on, you know, his wife is our senator and she's done so much for New York... like that... or the...
Republican operatives have erased my memory.
Republican operatives have erased my memory.
Harry and other retailers et. al.
Years ago when my wife was working for American Airlines I had the "opportunity" to play corporate spouse for dinner one night with Bob Crandall the CEO. Heaven knows she had done it enough times for me so I owed her one.
Bob made a statement that night that I think of often when I read your posts. The statement was:
"I am at the mercy of my stupidest competitor."
That says it all for pretty much any business, especially retail.
Years ago when my wife was working for American Airlines I had the "opportunity" to play corporate spouse for dinner one night with Bob Crandall the CEO. Heaven knows she had done it enough times for me so I owed her one.
Bob made a statement that night that I think of often when I read your posts. The statement was:
"I am at the mercy of my stupidest competitor."
That says it all for pretty much any business, especially retail.
Wise words, Bro.....
The customer could care less if the dealer loses money - just so they get a good price! And those competitors that don't know they are losing money can, as you mention, be a real PITA.
When I was in retail, though, I was more likely the one who Mr. Crandall was talking about...not that I was stupid, but I certainly had better prices than 95% of my competitors. The secret is that you can do that and make money- just ask Southwest Airlines....
The customer could care less if the dealer loses money - just so they get a good price! And those competitors that don't know they are losing money can, as you mention, be a real PITA.
When I was in retail, though, I was more likely the one who Mr. Crandall was talking about...not that I was stupid, but I certainly had better prices than 95% of my competitors. The secret is that you can do that and make money- just ask Southwest Airlines....
Yep. If you are on top of the game and can manage your place in such a way as to make a buck and still smack the competition you can rock and roll. It is a lot of work to keep it up though.
At the time of the dinner fuel prices had been dropping like a rock and were the main cause for a big yearly profit for American. And at the big oil company we were taking it in the shorts because of it. Crandall was gracious enough to thank me when I reminded him of it. As he grinned from ear to ear.
I called over the waitress and ordered a car payment priced bottle of wine for his bill. And grinned from ear to ear.
At the time of the dinner fuel prices had been dropping like a rock and were the main cause for a big yearly profit for American. And at the big oil company we were taking it in the shorts because of it. Crandall was gracious enough to thank me when I reminded him of it. As he grinned from ear to ear.
I called over the waitress and ordered a car payment priced bottle of wine for his bill. And grinned from ear to ear.
Webmaster said:
sure, but they cant lose money for long. We see it it the lumber biz......VERY low margins in the first place, so when you see ridiculously low numbers, its either a mistake or a foolish move. It tends not to stay around for long....usually no more than 2-3 years. We hear alot of this:
"I bought it from XYZ, but they went out of business. NOW what do I do...?" etc.
You are the the mercy of your stupidest competitor. To a point. If they are doing something so obviously wrong, you cant be the next lemming in the line, can you? You will suffer the same fate as he.
We had recently some customers tell me that they were getting New England Premium Hardwood pellets for $205/ton. Now, right now, our price is $219/ton. I know what they cost, I know how much it costs to truck them. At that price, given shipping, for a hardwood pellet, they'd be making right near 4-6 dollars/ton. Cant survive at that margin. Two bags damaged? Now youre losing money. Turns out the "New England Pellets" being advertised are New England Pellets, alright, but they are STANDARD grade. Im told this from an irrefutable source, who Id rather not reveal. My price for the Standards is $189/ton. Was it intentionally misleading advertising? I dunno. I DO know though, that most of the people seeing that ad THINK they are premium pellets. Boy are they in for a surprise, come fall! ;-P )Standard pellets will burn OK in certain stoves, but many of the top-drop pelelt stoves have issues with them). So, its not always your stupidest competitor, but also sometimes the skeekiest.
So they will call the dealer and complain and the dealer will tell them to get lost - or that their stove is too picky, etc.
An amazing feat (that's a GW quote) - is that many of our shops original competitors are still in biz.....many of their suppliers are not! After all, they ended up with a lot of free product when they failed to pay bills and then waited out the makers......who sooner or later went out of biz.
Another "Trump" moment, I spoke to a supplier who was owed $40,000 by one of my competitors, yet he still sold to them (cash) with the idea that he at least was making a few $$ profit instead of zero. Ah, I miss the retail business!
You can imagine the early days of stove - 1978-1981, where our shop had to compete against everything from Buck (heat your house with two logs for 14 hours) to VC (either direct from the factory, or later from a local competitor), HearthStone (they had the fanciest literature) and hundreds of other brands. There was blood in the street, but it didn't end up being mine! That was due to the fact that I was a young warrior at the time (maybe 25-26 years old) - I actually enjoyed the fighting.
I remember one time a competitor put out a number of illegal temporary signs on a big highway that led to our store.....We told one of our helpers that we would give him an extra $20 for each one he removed......and they were gone, just like that.
We placed advertising - we call it the ad that shocked the world - comparing our superior Surdiac to the VC Vigilant coal conversion......that one earned us a good cease and desist from VC lawyers! Ah, the good ole days!
Harry, when you are ready to make your 3rd million, I'll draw up a war plan - take NO prisoners....
An amazing feat (that's a GW quote) - is that many of our shops original competitors are still in biz.....many of their suppliers are not! After all, they ended up with a lot of free product when they failed to pay bills and then waited out the makers......who sooner or later went out of biz.
Another "Trump" moment, I spoke to a supplier who was owed $40,000 by one of my competitors, yet he still sold to them (cash) with the idea that he at least was making a few $$ profit instead of zero. Ah, I miss the retail business!
You can imagine the early days of stove - 1978-1981, where our shop had to compete against everything from Buck (heat your house with two logs for 14 hours) to VC (either direct from the factory, or later from a local competitor), HearthStone (they had the fanciest literature) and hundreds of other brands. There was blood in the street, but it didn't end up being mine! That was due to the fact that I was a young warrior at the time (maybe 25-26 years old) - I actually enjoyed the fighting.
I remember one time a competitor put out a number of illegal temporary signs on a big highway that led to our store.....We told one of our helpers that we would give him an extra $20 for each one he removed......and they were gone, just like that.
We placed advertising - we call it the ad that shocked the world - comparing our superior Surdiac to the VC Vigilant coal conversion......that one earned us a good cease and desist from VC lawyers! Ah, the good ole days!
Harry, when you are ready to make your 3rd million, I'll draw up a war plan - take NO prisoners....
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