Power Outage Questions

[jatoxico]

Ya, I think I have some MWBCs.

The correct way to wire these is with double pole breaker so that they are tripped together. Mine were not so not immediately obvious and had to visually inspect and trace the wires coming into the panel.

I was fortunate I figured the issue out. As I said I'm no electrician.

 

[maple1]

We have some split plugs over the kitchen counter that I'm sure are done like that.

So I guess that rules out lighting up both sides of my panel with my 120 genny.

Then there's the issue, that I think Interlocks are against code up here. I think.

 

[jatoxico]

We have some split plugs over the kitchen counter that I'm sure are done like that.

So I guess that rules out lighting up both sides of my panel with my 120 genny.

Then there's the issue, that I think Interlocks are against code up here. I think.

Kitchen circuits are a common place to find shared neutral circuits. Transfer switch should be legal. I used a transfer switch which is, as some say limiting. On the other hand it also limits the mistakes you can make! Supposed to be that much safer too.

When rewiring transfer switch for use with the 120 inverter I eliminated one MWBC circuit off the switch altogether so it cannot be used. Another one is wired to only have one hot on at a time so it can be used safely. With 6 circuits I can run the fridge, plenty of lighting, make coffee, have hot water use a small microwave, watch tv and run insert and ceiling fans.

 

[Chas0218]

What kind of furnace are you talking about?

From what you are posting, and depending on how much the power goes out, I would be tempted to just get a 2000 or 3000 watt inverter generator & run a couple extension cords.

Gas consumption is my main consideration in an extended power outage. If you don't need to start a well pump, that should be all the watts you need. I used to have a 7000 watt Craftsman genny. It was a nice genny but it would suck down a 5 gallon jug of gas in what seemed like no time, while I was using only 1/4 of its potential. I now have a 3000w inverter. And I can run our well pump (a 120v, not a deep well) off it if needed.

IMO most people look right past gas consumption and into big shiney watts. Like I did once. Which can be a mistake.

This is huge, many don't factor in the right size of the generator for their needs.

I would sit down and figure out what you need total wattage wise and buy 1000 watts bigger. Lights aren't a major concern for those that buy a generator it is the ability to have water, heat, and keep food cold.

 

[peakbagger]

IMHO, there are wants and there are needs, make sure you figure that out. A generator especially a fixed speed unit is going to be most efficient at close to full throttle and far less efficient at lower loads. Diesels actually can get damaged when they are idled for long periods with no load. The Inverter generators definitely are more efficient at lower loads than a fixed speed but even they will be less efficient at lower loads. Therefore size the generator for the actual loads you need in power outage. Permanent Installed standby generators are currently popular as Generac is running their doom and gloom infomercials. Electrical firms love them as its easy work and they usually pick up extras to fix other problems. They generally oversize them for all the house loads. A freezer or fridge do not need to be plugged in 24/7 and even a well only draws power when someone is using the water. If the owner is going to have to get fuel and keep filling the generators there is lot to be said for going for smaller unit that can handle critical loads if they are managed. With the exception of 220 volt loads many folks survive quite well with a 5000 Watt generator. If the well is modern one with variable speed drive or an older one switched over to a variable speed drive, the startup surge is close to nonexistent and an oversized generator isn't needed.

The only exception is if the generator is permanently piped to a natural gas line so that fuel management isn't an issue. Even if the unit sucks down lot of natural gas, it will be several weeks before the bill arrives (unless you live in Lawrence MA )

 

[velvetfoot]

The well pump is the big driver for me. I'd definitely replace the current submersible pump with a variable speed if the current one crapped out. I can't see pre-emptively replacing it, though? It's about 15 years old. How long do they typically last?

With the well, if I knew something was coming I'd fill the bathtubs and some containers. Running the large genny periodically, the tubs and containers could be refilled at that time.

I have to say, having the ability to turn on any of the lights in the last outage was nice. Rather than carrying oil lamps all over the place. Has to be safer. So, while not a necessity, quite nice. Of course maybe you don't want to draw attention to yourself-another reason for a quiet little generator as well.

Again though, have to take account of inrush current draw on motor loads. Not trivial.

 

[peakbagger]

If you want to, you can convert your existing pump if it has an external capacitor box with one of these

http://store.waterpumpsupply.com/frmovaspcopr.html

If the capacitor is in the well then you need to wait until you replace it.

 

[Hullspeed]

Just wanted to mention the Honda EU2000i generator is awesome. One-arm portable, quiet, and *very* efficient - it's a great way to power 120 loads (using drop cords) for an extended period of time. I usually use it car camping to make coffee and run a toaster oven. Continuous 1600 watts / 2000 peak - it would run a refrigerator and a stove fan simultaneously with drop cords. Yamaha also makes a similar model (EF2000ISV2) that is equally great and a tiny bit cheaper. They use an inverter for constant true sine frequency and the engine RPMs drop under low load conditions to reduce noise and gas consumption. They will start a very very small window AC, but anything larger and it cannot handle the starting currents and will shut down the inverter for self protection.

 

[Highbeam]

Just wanted to mention the Honda EU2000i generator is awesome. One-arm portable, quiet, and *very* efficient - it's a great way to power 120 loads (using drop cords) for an extended period of time. I usually use it car camping to make coffee and run a toaster oven. Continuous 1600 watts / 2000 peak - it would run a refrigerator and a stove fan simultaneously with drop cords. Yamaha also makes a similar model (EF2000ISV2) that is equally great and a tiny bit cheaper. They use an inverter for constant true sine frequency and the engine RPMs drop under low load conditions to reduce noise and gas consumption. They will start a very very small window AC, but anything larger and it cannot handle the starting currents and will shut down the inverter for self protection.

The Honda 2000 has been superseded. Now it's a 2200! Pioneer inverter genset.

https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu2200i

 

[CaptSpiff]

Ya, I think I have some MWBCs.

I'm glad jatoxico brought this up because I think many home owners have this and don't even know.

My house had a 16x24' living room addition added in 1974 (way before I owned it). The electrician ran a single 12-3 from the panel to the 240v in-wall Air Conditioner outlet, then spilt that into two 120v runs (one an outlet run and the other a switched lighting run).

I've also seen this on a few homemade Garage runs. Most were safe and legal, but one had 10-3 to two 240v equipment outlets, then into two 120v runs using 14-2, protected by a 30 amp ganged breaker. Bad juju.

It's carzy out there, don't add to it by jumpering your 120 inverter genny to both legs!

 

[maple1]

I'm glad jatoxico brought this up because I think many home owners have this and don't even know.

My house had a 16x24' living room addition added in 1974 (way before I owned it). The electrician ran a single 12-3 from the panel to the 240v in-wall Air Conditioner outlet, then spilt that into two 120v runs (one an outlet run and the other a switched lighting run).

I've also seen this on a few homemade Garage runs. Most were safe and legal, but one had 10-3 to two 240v equipment outlets, then into two 120v runs using 14-2, protected by a 30 amp ganged breaker. Bad juju.

It's carzy out there, don't add to it by jumpering your 120 inverter genny to both legs!

But if you have them you could still use a 240v genny and feed to a 240v breaker with interlock?

 

[CaptSpiff]

But if you have them you could still use a 240v genny and feed to a 240v breaker with interlock?

Yup, absolutely, that works fine.

 

[maple1]

I'm re-thinking my genny situation. We lost power at 9am this morning, still out. 4th time this month. Last few winters it's only been once or twice. I need to at least get a cover made for it and get it parked on our verandah for the winter. Dragging it out each outage is getting real old real fast here.

 

[CaptSpiff]

Hey Maple1, how bout building a little doghouse for the genny like this lady did in this YouTube vid:

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At the end she starts it and the sound reduction is amazing.

Careful not to fall in love,... who knew girls could change oil ????

 

[velvetfoot]

What, no code violations cited?

 

[CaptSpiff]

What, no code violations cited?

What,... about changing oil?

 

[velvetfoot]

There are wires flying all over the place.

 

[CaptSpiff]

There are wires flying all over the place.

True. But I'm actually more concerned about the battery charging taking place inside the Tiny House (is it a fancy trailer?) without any noticeable venting. But hey,... I don't want to be called a Safety Sally.
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Looking left: Did anyone else notice the lack of hand rails on the entrance platform? It's two steps,... right?
Looking right: Shut-up,... they'll call you a Safety Sally !!
Looking left: No, No,... the people on this forum are very reasonable.

 

[maple1]

Hey Maple1, how bout building a little doghouse for the genny like this lady did in this YouTube vid:

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At the end she starts it and the sound reduction is amazing.

Careful not to fall in love,... who knew girls could change oil ????

No falling danger here, lol.

Ya, something like that. Would just likely be a box I would lift off to fill up & start. Given if I do it it will be thrown together in a hurry with what I can scrounge up. Hardest part will be getting it up on the verandah - it's kinda heavy, not sure wifey is up to that, might have to find some help. Or wait till the kids get home next month. Should also likely get a rubber pad for it to sit on, since it is right on the other side of the wall from living room where the TV is.

Power came back on 2am. This has been the worst month ever for this stiff in the 22 years we've been here. At least we have a genny, I just need to get it sorted better.

 

[jatoxico]

She has a pretty slick setup. Admittedly I don't have much knowledge or experience with household battery back-up set ups so I don't have any comments about the safety but yeah, what a woman! Fueling up, changing oil?; these are foreign concepts to my lovely wife.

 

[maple1]

She has a pretty slick setup. Admittedly I don't have much knowledge or experience with household battery back-up set ups so I don't have any comments about the safety but yeah, what a woman! Fueling up, changing oil?; these are foreign concepts to my lovely wife.

Likewise.

 

[velvetfoot]

I was at Home Depot the other day, and they had what looked like a standby generator sitting there in the store. I lift the lid, and it's empty! Anyway, you'd think that'd be ideal. Find an empty box. Not sure if there'd be cooling fans involved, etc.

Electric start would probably be required for my wife.

The Honda eu2000i took a lot of pulls to start the other day. It was stored without gasoline. It has a diaphragm fuel pump. I saw a video yesterday where the guy did several long slow pulls of the cord with the choke on, before actually trying to start it. He claimed that helped prime it. I've tried it several times after letting the fuel run out. It seems to work. Video link below.

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I might put in a separate kill switch to allow unit to run dry without removing fuel from tank. As is there is just one switch that turns off fuel and ignition. Video link below:

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If you were thinking you might use it sooner rather than later, and don't want to siphon the fuel from the tank and let it run dry, this might do the trick, and help with preventing carb gum up. Not sure how long that phenomenon takes.

 

[velvetfoot]

Just did the kill switch mod. Easy.

 

[jatoxico]

I bought the Champion 2000W. I like that is has a fuel shut off valve for short term storage and a float bowl drain for longer term storage. The float drain has tubing that directs draining gas out the bottom of the unit. Bit of oil in the spark plug hole and done.

It's a nice feature since simply running gas engines with a float bowl until they stop leaves a lot of gas in the bowl that can dry and gum up.

 

[Highbeam]

This thread reminded me and I just went out and ran my champion inverter 2800 for 30 minutes with a 50% load. Now I’m ready for winter storms. This same genset is my summertime rv air conditioning power source too. I’ve had it for a few years now and it is always stored full of fuel but I shut the gas off and let it suck the bowl down. Starts first pull on old gasoline very well.

The whole gumming up of carburetors has not been my experience unless you’re talking years of nonuse.

No need to drain the bowl in my experience. Once the bowl is sucked low enough that the jets only suck air then you know those jets don’t have gas on them. No gas, no deposits.

Plus I cheat a little and all of my gas cans get sta-bil all year. Stabil says 1 or 2 years.