Please Help! Im completly new and Totally Clueless!

[Grouper]

Hey everyone! Great Site Here!

The reason im posting today, is to hopefully get some help and gain a bit of knowhow on wood stoves.
Ive just bought a old Blaze King Princess. (This is the old model with the orange tile cutouts on the front)
I bought it to try and take the chill off for this time of year in my shop. (shops 40x20x12 Insulated)
The stove has 2 dials on it. One controls the on/off/speed of the two small fans in the back that push the warm out from the front of the stove.
And the other dial has numbers one thru six. I guess this is the thermastat for the stove. or dampner maby I dont know what its called!
So heres what I did.

I talked to my local building inspector about the install. I was told to keep everything away from any combustables by 18 inches.
The shop has 4 feet tall concrete footings and floor. I installed the stove at 45 degress in the corner. I bought single wall seamed (the chitty stuff from my local harware store) black stove pipe. With the male end down, the stove pipe goes up 2, 36inch lengths, then a 10 inch length. It then turns towards the wall with a 90, then a 14 inch section, going into a male/male adapter, and into the big chimney stainless steel thing that goes through the wall. From there at the moment it ends. Going strait out. I know this isnt going to pass an inspection yet, but im saving up for the rest of the chimey parts!!

Like I said I know this wont pass a building inspection without the chimney finished, But I dont see it being a issue for the next couple weeks. Especially since here on the west coast we've had about a month of strait rain!


Now that everyone has a decent idea of what im dealing with, here is a couple of my questions!!:

When I let the stove die down and go out over night, I get a black very smelly liquid leaking out of the stove pipe at the 90, and the 14 inch piece attached to it and then the chimney. Its like condinsation or something? It has nothing to do with rain water leaking in, because it hasnt stopped raining since I got the stove, and it only leaks when The stove cools down over night, and goes out. Then it stops leaking.
The stuff stinks!
I really want to try and eliminate as much smell as I can from my shop, But Right now when I open the doors in the morning, it makes you step back!
Im frusturated, because this wood stove really heats my shop up when she's cranked! I want to eleminate this liquid leaking, and the bad smell!

Any info or advice will be greatly apreciated!! Im eager to learn all I can!!

Thanks everyone!!
Alan

 

[Digital Wilderness]

Hi Alan,

I'm not too famaliar with Blaze King, but if this stove is a CAT you might want to check the condition of the CAT and give it a good cleaning.
Also check that your wood is good and dry, and try and burn things a bit hotter to burn off the smoke.

Dave

 

[Hurricane]

That black smelly liquid sounds like creosote. That is bad stuff and if it gets hot enough it can ignite and you will have what they call a chimney fire, that is a real bad thing and worse with the chimney setup you have.
Many things cause creosote, mainly wet ( not seasoned wood ) As Dave mentioned if it is a cat stove the catalytic converter may be dirty or bad. If it is a cat stove you need to disengage the cat until the stove is hot enough then engage it. Here is the link to the manual for the BK princess. Is that the stove you have ? If so it is a cat stove, you need to learn how to operate the cat. And use real dry wood, wood that has been split for at least a year in most cases.

Oops I forgot the link
http://www.blazeking.com/Manuals/New-Manuals-2009/OM-KE,PE E V1.02.pdf

Quick scan of the manual on page 40 indicates the bypass is left open can be the cause. Since you did not mention the bypass I figure you are not aware of it. Either way the manual should explain how to use the stove.

 

[Grouper]

Ok guys, I know the wood i've been using is not the best. I will have to fork out the money for a cord of good dry wood! I thought it was dry enough, But i guess not!
Is there any decent way to tell if the wood is dry enough, before the guy unloads it? Without buying a moisture tester!!
How do I go about getting rid of this creosot? I would like to clean it off of the stove.
I beleive my stove is a BTJ 504! Its definity from the days befor cats!
http://www.blazeking.com/epawarn.php?pdf=KT-304_KTJ-304_PT-204_PTJ-204_BT-504_BTJ-504.pdf

So If I start burning only dry wood, I "shouldnt" have any more leaks, But what about the smell!??
Thanks guys!!

 

[Frostbit]

I have the very same stove. It does not have a catalytic converter.

My hunch is you have unseasoned wood. I can damp mine down at night and I never have liquid creosote. Matter of fact, I get very little friable creosote, period.

The liquid tells me your wood is wet. The results you are seeing is much more prevalent when the stack temps are low, such as it is at night when you damp it down. Your first priority is inspect the stack and clean it accordingly. Then, burn dry wood. It helps to crank the stove up once a day and let 'er rip to keep it clean.

There's plenty of "dry/wet/seasoned" wood theads here, and you can gain a lot of information from reading them.

Too, I would never close the thermostatic damper all the way shut at night. Leave it cracked. This stove is basically an airtight, and when the damper is shut it really goes into smolder stage. That equates to a lot of cold smoke and creosote inducing properties.

 

[Grouper]

I have the very same stove. It does not have a catalytic converter.

My hunch is you have unseasoned wood. I can damp mine down at night and I never have liquid creosote. Matter of fact, I get very little friable creosote, period.

The liquid tells me your wood is wet. The results you are seeing is much more prevalent when the stack temps are low, such as it is at night when you damp it down. Your first priority is inspect the stack and clean it accordingly. Then, burn dry wood. It helps to crank the stove up once a day and let 'er rip to keep it clean.

There's plenty of "dry/wet/seasoned" wood theads here, and you can gain a lot of information from reading them.

Too, I would never close the thermostatic damper all the way shut at night. Leave it cracked. This stove is basically an airtight, and when the damper is shut it really goes into smolder stage. That equates to a lot of cold smoke and creosote inducing properties.

Thanks Frostbit!
I will stop using the wood I have now, And try and get a cord diliverd asap. I will search the forums for dry wood threads right now! What is your procedure at night when you damp it down? How much wood do you throw in, and what number do you put the damper to? Do you crank it right to that number, or slowly turn it there over 10 minutes or so. Is that damper connected directly to the dial, or is there a thermastat in there keeping a steady temp? What do I inspect the stack for? And How Do I clean it? The stove is on cranked (#6) or just shy of it at (#5) any time its on, Its a big shop! It should be cleaned out from whole day of cranking it!
I guess I should spend the 20bucks and install a new rope for the door too!
Thanks for the help everyone! And sorry for the million question! I have alot I want to learn!!

 

[littlesmokey]

Grouper,

Welcome to the hearth. You are going to get all the information you need. First, you are right about the condensation, that's unburned particles and water, everyone is right above. Nasty and dangerous. Wet is real bad. Until you can straighten things out, take the last hour or so and open the air and burn "briskly" until it cools, then shut her down. Don't try to overnight burn, quite yet.

Two issue you need to address in my opinion first: Stove placement and stack heighth.

What do you do in the "shop"? If you work on cars/vehicles, you have an issue. The flamable vapors can get sucked into the stove and ignite. Even if a woodshop or machine shop, you need to protect against a fire. Raising your stove 24 to 30 inches off the floor will go a long way to make it safe. Here the minimum is 28". Higher is better, only to a point of reasonable. Keep the stove and the stack far enough away from combustibles that you don't have to worry about catching the wall on fire, or scorching the paint.

Second issue. Your stack needs a minimum heighth to properly vent the stove. It also must safely clear the structure. You stub install (just out the wall) is the most dangerous of the problems. Buy a half cord of wood and put the rest into stove pipe. You need to follow the local code, or NPFA standards. I am sure someone will fill in the blanks. Ten feet and thimble out is not good at all. Single wall pipe isn't the best either. There are folks here that will be able to spec out your needs.

Not that you have done anything major wrong, you need to finish up with the location and stack for sure. If you have to burn, get used pipe until you can build yourself a proper one. Remember to NOT damper down the stove, the smoke carries the gases that become creosote. You need to avoid any buildup.

 

[Grouper]

OK everyone, Thanks for all the great help!

I have definitly found the cause of the wet creosote, my rounds were averaging 8 inches round, and were coverd for about a year. Un split. And its some sort of a hardwood to boot. So my wood is wet! Thats one problum solved. I have also spun my top 14 inch horizontal piece of stove pipe around, so the seam is at the top, and did the same with the 90, that points down to the stove. Now the creosote (hopefully wont form again) should only leak down into my stove, not ONTO it, and the wall, through the seam...

So theres that solved! Yea Who!! Thanks Guys!!


Now I was hoping someone could tell me what "friable" creosote is?

The "shop" does everything from storage, wood work, metalwork, vehicle building exc.... I have never heard of this safety issue with the fumes. It sure makes sence, But I don't believe its code to be raised up in my area. I will talk to my inspector about it. Thanks for the info/warning.

last night I was out in the shop and just had to have the stove going. I kept it cranked on the highest setting on the damper (#6) to keep the stove pipe "suction" strong and the air hot. Of course there were no problums with smoke or creosote. After the stove had been cranking, and I started to warn up and move around, I decided to shut the stove down and keep an eye on it. previously I had always loaded it up with wood, shut it down, and went inside. This time I didnt fill it with wood.
I just turned it down. I was going to be in the shop for many hours longer. I also wanted to see if any liquid creosote came out, since I turned the pipes seams up. (still useing the wet wood here......)

Well, the stove of course cooled down throuht the night with no liquid creosote leaks! Yea who!!
But heres what DID happen!! After a while I started to see small streams of smoke coming out of the stove pipe! It was coming out between the connections/joints/ on either end of my horizontal 14 inch piece of stove pipe (One end into the adapter, into the chimney going through the wall, and one end attached to the 90 heading down to the stove top.

This lasted untill the fire dies completly....... So I guess i'm wondering what would cause this? After looking at the stove pipe from the side, from a good distance away, It looked as if the horizontal part of my stove pipe (the 14 inch piece) Might have a slight downward angle. Very slight. Would this cause this for sure? Or a maby?
Or is my smoke leaking issue caused from my short or non existent chimney...?

Looking forward to your reply everyone, and thanks for all the great help, and information!

 

[Slow1]

Two immediate thoughts.

1) The smoke is leaking into the shop due to lack of draft. Lack of draft is due to your "short or non existent chimney" so yes you have that diagnostic nailed. Fix is to get the chimney up to spec so that it will continue to draft proper. The rest of the fix is to stop burning the wet wood, or if you do burn it, make sure you keep burning it hot otherwise that slow exiting smoke is going to gunk up your chimney mighty quick and become a fire hazard in no time.

2) If you don't already have them, get CO alarms installed in there. Smoke entering your shop means that other partially combusted gases, including CO are very likely leaking into the room as well. You can't smell, taste, or see CO but it can kill you. Even if it doesn't kill you it can make you feel miserable - headache, sick etc.

 

[Grouper]

Yes I Bought a o2 Alarm the day after I got the stove! I went with the best one they had in the store, with digital read out and yada yada yada...! I run them in my boat when im ancored for halibut, Very usefull Alarms! Thanks for the heads up thou!! Saftey is imporant to me! Im able to spend 50 bucks on a alarm right night, but not 500+ for a complete chimney!... well not yet!

So I guess..... All thats left is increasing the draft in my stove pipe for the long, slow, cool, overnight burns.
YEAWHO!! sounds simple enough!
So.. How do I figure this out guys? Is there a set length it has to be in total? Or set height obove ground? A total footage? A set length coming up from the stove befor any bends? A set height after the last bends... How many bends can there be (90's)?

Im totally completely un sure!! And still a tad bit unsure/concerned about this: >from my last post: "After looking at the stove pipe from the side, from a good distance away, It looked as if the horizontal part of my stove pipe (the 14 inch piece) Might have a slight downward angle. Very slight. Would this cause this for sure? Or a maby?" -talking about causing smoke leakage. Or would this completly not matter, With a propper chimney and propepr draft. It is slight, if any!

Thanks again everyone! I cant wait to have this system up and running for those cold nights!! The temp around here is ment to be dropping after the weekend. Hopefully I can figure this out on the weekend! THANKS EVERYONE!!

 

[oconnor]

Grouper

You mention a couple of times that you had liquid leakage out of the pipe - that shouldn't happen. When you install the pipe (I am assuming single wall pipe) each piece should fit into the top of the lower piece, so that any liquids run inside the pipe. If you have heavy creosote, you could get some minor leakage at the turnable joints in an adjustable elbow, but very little. Doubkle wall will look the opposite on the outside, but inside it is configured the same, with the lining entering the pipe below each time.

Secondly, you should ensure that you have a downward slope toward the stove in any runs of "horizontal" piping. Best to maximise the slope away from vertical, this will reduce the angles as well and contribute to a better draft. I.E, rather than 3 feet up and 3 feet flat, best to go up 2 feet and run the rest to the flue connection with a good slope to the stove.

As for total flue length, your manual should give you some numbers - most call for minimum 15 feet. That would be 15 feet straight up - every 90* elbow you add effectively reduces that by 5 feet, and any changes in diameter (like from 6" pipe to a 8 x 8 clay tile flue) causes further reductions.

With all that exposed smoke pipe, I'd get you a flue thermometer - probe type is better. It'll give you good feedback on how hot the flue is getting, and when you need to add/take away air to get a clean burn from it.

Good Luck.

 

[Grouper]

Thanks! I saw a temp guage at the store and almost bought it. I will next time im there!

I will check the manual this evening for the specs!

This morning I added a 20 inch length of pipe horizontaly to the insolated part coming out through the wall,(on the outside) then a 90, and then about 60 inches virtically, and then one more 90 to cap it, since the store didnt have any propper caps in for a couple days. I Figured it couldnt be any worse than before, I sparked her up a 1/2 hour ago, And got a ripping blaze going. Everything seemed fine, untill I noticed that smoke was pouring out of ALL the joints/connections inside the shop!
And this was at full bore! hot hot hot! Now im getting depressed and want to give up.
Is there any chance that having the chimney (single wall for now) topped with a 90 would cause this? Or could it be because I had my 2 12x8 doors open in the shop, right beside the stove, and a 4x8 door open at the other end of the shop...
Im thinking about taking some pictures for you guys and posting them up.
Thanks again for all the info
I just want a shop with a fireplace that doesnt smoke me out!! :,(
Thanks everyone.....


o yea, thanks, I think ive got the liquid thing figured out! and the leakage too. its just the smoke issue!

 

[Slow1]

60" horizontal run? that is a VERY long horizontal run in my opinion. You need a minimum rise in any horizontal run and really should not have any horizontal runs unless absolutely necessary (i.e. a wall penetration). My guess is that may well be what is killing your draft.

Yes, pictures would help a lot here....

 

[oconnor]

OK, so I just reread the original post, and I noticed something -

YOU DON'T HAVE A CHIMNEY

The shop has 4 feet tall concrete footings and floor. I installed the stove at 45 degress in the corner. I bought single wall seamed (the chitty stuff from my local harware store) black stove pipe. With the male end down, the stove pipe goes up 2, 36inch lengths, then a 10 inch length. It then turns towards the wall with a 90, then a 14 inch section, going into a male/male adapter, and into the big chimney stainless steel thing that goes through the wall. From there at the moment it ends. Going strait out. I know this isnt going to pass an inspection yet, but im saving up for the rest of the chimey parts!!"

So, that is why you have no draft and smoke issues. Your latest post seems really odd - have you mixed up horizontal (left right) and vertical (up down)?

This morning I added a 20 inch length of pipe virtically to the insolated part coming out through the wall,(on the outside) then a 90, and then about 60 inches horizontally, and then one more 90 to cap it, since the store didnt have any propper caps in for a couple days. I Figured it couldnt be any worse than before, I sparked her up a 1/2 hour ago, And got a ripping blaze going. Everything seemed fine, untill I noticed that smoke was pouring out of ALL the joints/connections inside the shop!

In the end, I'm confused, but I'm certain the set up will be out of wack until you get some real class A chimney pipe for a real flue.

 

[Grouper]

Sorry your right! I mixed them up!! I have corrected the problum in my previous post!

So a chimney is required to obtain a draft? Like the thread says: Im Clueless!!

What ive done since my last post is add another section of pipe VIRTICALLY to my "chimney" I now have aprox a 9 foot tall chimney. single wall, with a galvanised rain cap. I sparked it up a coupple hours ago and got it ripping hot! No Smoke YEAWHO!!

But 2 things did happen. When It was ripping hot and burning good, You could kinda see the smoke pulsing out of the chimney, and you could hear a thump thump thump, slow and deep coming from the stove and pipe. Almost as if it was having to suck air in from the chimney to keep the fire going, in gulps. Then when I opened the door to the stove (I crack it first for about 10 seconds) It went poof!! and there was a slight flame ball... Then everything seamed ok. I let it die down till everything was cool and thats where im sitting. No smoke, No creosote, just the weird things i mentioned.
Any ideas?
Im going to flash it up tonight, or in the AM and see what happens then.
Thanks everyone.

 

[brokeburner]

dead man walkin step back from the stove with your hands up

 

[Pagey]

So this setup terminates at the wall?! That is to say, you have NO external chimney sections at all?

 

[brokeburner]

i think he has one section of single wall going up externally

 

[begreen]

Clueless, start by reading the manual, cover to cover, before proceeding any farther. Ask questions if there is something doesn't make sense. Do not light a fire until the system is safe and you understand what you are doing. The life you save could be your own.

 

[cmonSTART]

Trying to run a stove without a chimney is like trying to drive a car without an engine.

 

[littlesmokey]

Trying to run a stove without a chimney is like trying to drive a car without an engine.

Love the car analogy, but you missed the perfect comparison just a little. Like: without an exhaust system, or running it through the passenger compartment first, or without exhaust manifolds............ :coolgrin:

 

[Grouper]

thanks for all the concern guys. It does have a chimney now. Its single wall inside the shop. everything has 18 inches clearance, or more. (my code required 18 inches) and then it goes into a class A, through the wall. Then It has a single wall chimney.
I beleive I have figured out my smoke isuse. Only questions I have now are about the gulping sounds/smoke. I believe my damper is on a thermostat, connected via a spring. I believe there was so much heat, and so much air flowing through the pipe, past the damper, it was causeing it to wave open and close possibly... Its only done it that one time. either that or possibly it was so hot, it was starving for oxygen, and gulping it down the chimney. Reading this new thread this evening enlightened me on what happend for shure with the fire ball.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/46785/

Thanks again guys!

o yea, again, I was hoping someone could tell me what “friable” creosote is?

 

[oconnor]

Grouper, don't despair over a lack of knowledge - you have come to the right place. This post is reminiscent of a post where a man lamented the poor draft in his insert. He described in his post how he had slid it into the fireplace, paid specific attention to his surround being sealed, but had no luck.

Four of five of us quizzed him on his firewood moisture content, the possibility of stack effect being the issue, etc, and then it donned on me - So asked him about his liner connection. That is when the truth came out - he hadn't connected the insert to a liner.

You have reminded me and others to read the questions carefully, and make no assumptions - thank you.

As for Friable Creosote: from http://www.thermocrete.com/creosote2.htm

Stage 4 FRIABLE STATE CREOSOTE
When solid-state creosote burns, all the volatile oils are burnt off leaving a residue similar to a honeycomb, which is crisp and easy to sweep from the chimney. However we would never recommend setting a fire to a chimney to clean it, this would be a sure fire way to become homeless.

Why are you asking about it? Is there something we can help you with? Have you had a chimney fire somewhere?

 

[Grouper]

thanks for the reply, And the link Post #4 is where friable creosote was mentioned!
Thanks again. I believe ive got everything working correctly.

Thanks for the info/help. I have a buddys buddy coming over tongiht. He installs/cleans fireplaces for a living. I will get him to check it out, and let me know what he thinks.

Thanks again!!

 

[Ratman]

Grouper...

1st off you titled your thread perfectly.
Please Help! Im completly new and Totally Clueless!

PLEASE do not light a fire in that stove until your chimney sweep friend evaluates your system and you comply to ALL of his requirements.
OMG...this is the second scariest thread I've read to date next to the neighbor of the guy who actually burned his house down from not using insulated pipe.
Once you have the stove / chimney set-up to your installer friend's standards do not burn wet wood.
You should not have dripping creosote.
If you still do then stop using the stove until you have repaired that issue.

Grouper we want you to be a safe member of this forum and there are many experts here to guide you.
Do not hesitate to ask any question and at the same time please heed their advice.