Please help! I can't seem to get enough air!

[jonmurr]

I have tried absolutely everything and am hoping someone can give me some advice.

I bought an Enviro Meridian stove last year. At first it ran fairly well, and there was little to no ash or clinkers. After a few months i noticed that soot accumulated very quickly, and I couldn't seem to get my flame to burn hot enough. I then followed all of the logical steps.

1- did a complete cleaning and took everything apart. ( have completed every step in every troubleshooting checklist)

2-bought a chimney sweep kit and ran it through the vents.

Even when the whole furnace is tidy and clean, The flame gets "lazy" after a few hours and soot begins to develop. I have the damper open to its fullest capacity but still can't seem to get enough air. I am not even running the stove on the highest setting. We did not have the stove calibrated by a professional as we are in a very remote area, but we were very thorough and have read the owners manual back to front dozens of times. I don't think that the pellets are the cause because if they are just burning slower i should be able to add more air right?

Is there another way to force more air into the stove? Why would this be happening?

Please help me. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank You.

 

[firewarrior820]

do you have a outside air kit installed on this unit [oak]?

 

[hearthtools]

Here is a test to see if you have a draft problem
Clean the burn pot.
Start the stove and let it run for 10 minutes.

Push the air control in.
You will get a Lazy ugly orange flame.
Now pull the Air control the fire will get shorter and more intence yellow flame.
IF NOT THEN YOU HAVE A DRAFT problem or air leak.

you want to be sure The door is sealing
Ash pan is sealing.


OK im assuming you PULLED the combustion blower and cleaned the chamber behind the blower.
You could also pull the firebrick out and clean behind that.

You could have had a bird or something get the flue and into the blower.


If all is good and no draft then you might have a weak motor

See my post about the Mouse nest in a Meridian.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/12660/

 

[jonmurr]

THanks guys. We didn't have a fresh air intake installed initially, but we did install one shortly after, and it didn't seem to help. The damper does work, because when i push it all the way in the flame does get lazier. I just thought that i should be able to run it on high without the pellets overflowing and crazy amounts of soot building up. Right now it seems that i can only run the stove one setting below the maximum.

Perhaps it is due to a weak motor. We live in a very remote area and the store nearest us does not service the stoves. We are looking to have a company come from across the border ( about an hour and a half away ) to come and have a look at it.

If the motor is weak, are there any ways to adjust it? I would likely leave it to a professional, but i just wanted to see if there are any other ways of getting more air in there.

Again, thanks for your comments. I appreciate any advice others have to give.

 

[cyclegems]

Are you at a High elevation?

 

[DiggerJim]

Not to state the obvious, but have you checked the door gasket for leaks?

 

[jonmurr]

I don't think im at a high elevation.... but we are right on the water. Does the altitude affect the operation of the stove?

The gasket on the door seems fine.

Am i just crazy? Maybe that's just the maximum amount of air i can get? is is common to get soot within the first few hours of cleaning? We empty the burn pot liner twice a day, and each time there is a brick of ash (or a large ashy clinker) inside. Is this just common for a stove that runs on high all day long? Should the ash be in one solid clump like that?

Immediately after we clean the stove we get a good burn for the first few hours, then the flame starts to get orange and smokey. We still don't seem to be able to have the stove work on the maximum setting.

Thanks again for everyones feedback, please if you have any other suggestions or comments do not hesitate to leave them. I feel like am going crazy

 

[drtnshtr]

my stove never did this until I bought my last ton of pellets and they were too small...the smaller pellets feed too fast and fill the burn pot to quickly not allowing my flame to maximize...with the small pellets I have to keep it on lower settings also or they will spill over. when I burn the larger pellets this doesnt happen.

 

[mkmh]

I don't think im at a high elevation.... but we are right on the water. Does the altitude affect the operation of the stove?

The gasket on the door seems fine.

Am i just crazy? Maybe that's just the maximum amount of air i can get? is is common to get soot within the first few hours of cleaning? We empty the burn pot liner twice a day, and each time there is a brick of ash (or a large ashy clinker) inside. Is this just common for a stove that runs on high all day long? Should the ash be in one solid clump like that?

Immediately after we clean the stove we get a good burn for the first few hours, then the flame starts to get orange and smokey. We still don't seem to be able to have the stove work on the maximum setting.

Thanks again for everyones feedback, please if you have any other suggestions or comments do not hesitate to leave them. I feel like am going crazy

Did you ever get this resolved? I am experiencing very similar behavior and am going crazy trying to isolate the problem. I have gone through 3 major, major cleaning, including pulling the combustion blower and it is still not working right.

 

[jonmurr]

Haven't resolved the problem yet. The only thing I can think of is that my chimney or vent pipe is too long with too many bends. But i am not sure that this does affect the burning or air intake. I did a trial run where i took off the excess pipe, and just let the stove vent directly where it meets the outdoors, and the same problem seemed to continue.

My biggest frustration is that i cannot persuade anyone to come and have a look at it. The nearest canadian city is too far away to send a technician, and the nearest American city will not send one either. I just want this thing to work properly. Let me know if you have any other suggestions or advice. Thanks.

 

[Lance1]

One thing you didn't mention in your complete cleaning, did you lube the motors?

A lazy flame after a few hours sounds like the combustion blower is starting to bind from the heat. Or the motor coils are too hot. Does the motor have adequate cooling? Is the fan blade on the outside of the combustion motor in tack?

 

[peirhead]

It seems to me that I read somewhere on this forum that some of the Enviro stoves have had problems with the holes in the burnpot clogging up and a drill-out modification to oversize the holes slightly...perhaps this might apply to the Meridian?

 

[harmanhater]

Try unplugging your stove from the outlet while it is in full burn. After a few minute if you see any smoke coming out of anywhere, you have an air leak. This only works if you have a straight out (no up draft piping). Remove your vertical piping down to straight out piping (no upwards draft). After disconnecting any updraft piping, if smoke is coming from the exhaust pipe in side your house, seal it again generously (forget how it looks) with 500 degree silicon smeard everywhere UNTIL NO SMOKE is inside your house. The point is to completely plug even pin holes. If you see smoke coming out around the door or ash pan, you need to replace the gaskets. If you have more than 3-90 degree elbows (even with updraft piping) in your piping including your clean out "T", most stove can't push this much air out of a 3" exaust. Then there are only two fixes, 1. (alot of work) repipe you stove) if possible to eliminate the 4th or 5th 90 degree elbow, (count a 45 degree as a 90 degree) if this is not possible then 2. repipe your stove (again very costly) with 4" piping. If any authorized dealer does work on your stove and finds ANY part/s need to be replaced, watch them constantly. Make sure all parts replaced come out of factory sealed boxes, or bags. Yes, some companies try to sneak in used parts (without you knowing it!) I have a P-68, I have learned the hardest way, and learned from experience (the hardest way)!

 

[mkmh]

Haven't resolved the problem yet. The only thing I can think of is that my chimney or vent pipe is too long with too many bends. But i am not sure that this does affect the burning or air intake. I did a trial run where i took off the excess pipe, and just let the stove vent directly where it meets the outdoors, and the same problem seemed to continue.

My biggest frustration is that i cannot persuade anyone to come and have a look at it. The nearest canadian city is too far away to send a technician, and the nearest American city will not send one either. I just want this thing to work properly. Let me know if you have any other suggestions or advice. Thanks.

I just finally got my issue straightened out today. I had done multiple thorough cleanings with decent results for a few hours...but then back to lazy burn and ultimately an overflowing burnpot. 2 Days ago (due to prompting from members here) I got extra aggressive and ran a plumbing snake through portion of the interior of the stove which pulled out a surprising amount of ash. After that, it burned fairly well for 2 days, but when I woke up the AM the pot was spilling over. A bunch of people had been telling me to hook up a leafblower to the stove to suck out the exhaust chamber. I had resisted, but today was the last straw. However, since I do not own a leafblower, I figured i'd see what my 6 HP shop Vac could do. So, I hooked my shop Vac to the horizontal vent pipe in back and duct taped all around it to ensure a tight fit. I then flipped on the Vac and let it go for 5 minutes.
My stove is like a brand new stove now. There was clearly something plugged up in the exhaust which I could not get to, even through aggressive cleaning measures. I was a total skeptic, but my stove is now burning better than it has in 4 years. I've had to cut the air way, way back to keep pellets from flying out of the pot. Before I did this I needed the air to be wide open to even keep a fire going.
I was about ready to lose my mind with the stove, and I was very very reluctant to try the leafblower (or in my case shop vac) trick, but I am ecstatic that I finally did. If you have the tools, give this a shot. If nothing else, you'll be able to rule out one more potential cause.

 

[mkmh]

I have tried absolutely everything and am hoping someone can give me some advice.

I bought an Enviro Meridian stove last year. At first it ran fairly well, and there was little to no ash or clinkers. After a few months i noticed that soot accumulated very quickly, and I couldn't seem to get my flame to burn hot enough. I then followed all of the logical steps.

1- did a complete cleaning and took everything apart. ( have completed every step in every troubleshooting checklist)

2-bought a chimney sweep kit and ran it through the vents.

Amazingly enough, all the troubleshooting steps are not enough. Clearing the exhaust chamber with forced air, or vacuum is nowhere in the St Croix manual. I only tried this after hearing from multiple members that they had the lazy flame problem and resolved it this way.
Keep in mind I had pulled my blower and cleaned every part of the chamber with a coat hanger and that STILL did not fix the problem. Is was not until I hit it with extreme suction today that the issue cleared up. I really wish I had done this 2 years ago, but i've been working through it by opening the damper a bit more every year. It was happening subtly, so I never really understood what was going on.

 

[hearthtools]

Haven't resolved the problem yet. The only thing I can think of is that my chimney or vent pipe is too long with too many bends. But i am not sure that this does affect the burning or air intake. I did a trial run where i took off the excess pipe, and just let the stove vent directly where it meets the outdoors, and the same problem seemed to continue.

My biggest frustration is that i cannot persuade anyone to come and have a look at it. The nearest canadian city is too far away to send a technician, and the nearest American city will not send one either. I just want this thing to work properly. Let me know if you have any other suggestions or advice. Thanks.

I have people that live far away bring the stove to me

 

[jonmurr]

Wow! thanks for all of the feedback. So many good ideas. we are away from home right now and have the electric heat going ( which is killing me. Ontario Hyrdo is ridiculously expensive. ) I'll try every tip you guys gave. I never thought about bringing the stove to someone, and i'll try sucking the hell out of every exposed tube.

Im going to lube up the motors and fans, and check all of my vent pipes for any minor leaks. If all those thingsdon't seem to make a difference i'll look into widening the holes of the burn pot liner. I have confidence though that if i do every possible thing to troubleshoot i'll get it working again too.

like mkmh, this has slowly become a problem, and i have done several cleaning and maintenance measures, but not always all at once. i'll write myself a huge checklist and do everything suggested. Honestly, with the amount of feedback i have been given, i am sure i'll figure this out this week-end. no problem. Thanks guys. Wish me luck.

 

[jonmurr]

Try unplugging your stove from the outlet while it is in full burn. After a few minute if you see any smoke coming out of anywhere, you have an air leak. This only works if you have a straight out (no up draft piping). Remove your vertical piping down to straight out piping (no upwards draft). After disconnecting any updraft piping, if smoke is coming from the exhaust pipe in side your house, seal it again generously (forget how it looks) with 500 degree silicon smeard everywhere UNTIL NO SMOKE is inside your house. The point is to completely plug even pin holes. If you see smoke coming out around the door or ash pan, you need to replace the gaskets. If you have more than 3-90 degree elbows (even with updraft piping) in your piping including your clean out "T", most stove can't push this much air out of a 3" exaust. Then there are only two fixes, 1. (alot of work) repipe you stove) if possible to eliminate the 4th or 5th 90 degree elbow, (count a 45 degree as a 90 degree) if this is not possible then 2. repipe your stove (again very costly) with 4" piping. If any authorized dealer does work on your stove and finds ANY part/s need to be replaced, watch them constantly. Make sure all parts replaced come out of factory sealed boxes, or bags. Yes, some companies try to sneak in used parts (without you knowing it!) I have a P-68, I have learned the hardest way, and learned from experience (the hardest way)!

I am nervous that this may be the cause. we have 5 bends. My dad was very artistic and eccentric and built the house himself decades ago. It has since seen many odd additions that now prevent my stove from having an ideal installation. The stove is also in the basement, but the house is built on a rock. The house slopes up against the rock in the basement so we have a flat floor on one corner of the basement and then a sloping rock. There's only a choice of two walls to put it the stove against. i am nervous that i will need to go to a 4 inch pipe if all of the above tips and tricks do not work.

How much of a difference will a 4 inch pipe make? is this what you did? did you find that it was a big improvement? I just wish our retailer was a little more knowledgeable, and they probably should have sold us 4" pipe when we ordered 5 bends. Im going to try every other measure first, then this is my last resort. Thanks so much..

 

[harmanhater]

I can't give you the answers you need. I can tell you the stove shop I get ALL of my advice from is in Sandford, Maine and have sold and installed Harman for 15 years? I have no ties to them! Under a Harmon warranty you must only use the company that you purchased your stove from! If your company is an inexperienced installation company (I only know Harman's policies) piping is NOT covered under the warranty. The original company I purchased my stove from lost their franchise (1 mile from my home) I was then directed to the new Harman authorised dealer (9 miles) and have installed few Harmans due to over selling/production problems, they do not have the experience with Harman I needed. So I searched stove companies with in a 50 mile radius and found them. It is advisable to visit any company you receive advice from, you can tell from their showroom and talking to their installers pretty quickly how much knowledge they have. The company I mentioned is 35 miles away, & will not travel (even if paid) to my house, nor can they supply any parts to me under the warranty. (You must use the closest dealer to you!). This company gave me all of the advice I gave to you, THEY ARE NICE PEOPLE, but are restricted by Harman to their "teritorry only". All pellet stoves push out exhaust gases. If you have more than 3- 90 degree elbows (including "T's", and 45 degree fittings, you must pipe with 4" not 3". The 3" can restrict your flow, cause burn problems, control board mal function, as can ANY inside air leaks. Many people don't even know they have improperly sealed pipe or bad gaskets unless they do the test I previously wrote about. (My pipe is literally painted/ covered completely with high heat silicon), then the next straight pipe/ unplug test revealed smoke pouring out around the ashpan door. Once replaced, NO smoke leak! Again the test and smoke poured out around the glass front door. I replaced the gasket, NO more smoke. I also resealed the adapter pipe to exhaust (really smeared it completely). The next test at full burn, I unplugged it from the wall AND just a very very small hint of smoke, even after 20 minutes!. Anyone with more than 3- 90 degree elbows (include "T,s" and 45 degrees, inside and outside is not operating properly. No brand of stove can push enough exhaust through 3" pipe with alot of elbows! One question for you: Why not move your stove up to the house level, not the basement? From what you described about your basement, it doesn't seem to be a usable room, and you will only create another problem by trying to move the heat from the basement to the living space. Trust me the full burn/straight pipe/ unplug from electric will show leaks (that NEED to be fixed) in ANY brand of stove! BUT, who am I? only a consumer that has tried for 3 years to correct running problems ( that most of you speak of on this forum) that could be corrected by sealing it PROPERLY, or repiping (to larger pipe and SEALING it PROPERLY). As I said most people that don't smell any smoke when their stove is running, don't even know they have an air LEAK problem and ASSU&ME;their stove is working correctly. I've learned ALL of this by thinking I wasn't cleaning enough/ or thoroughly, new sensing probe, new control board, new esp sensor in the exhaust, PLAYING with the draft screw, etc. Remember these aren't old wood stoves. Pellet stoves operate under pressure pushing out exhaust gases, yes even with vertical rise you can have air leaks and negative pressure problems that you aen't aware of. FROM: Becareful

 

[Lobstah]

I hesitate to even post on this one

First...you say that after cleaning, your stove runs fine for a few hours...then you get lazy-flame again. So...while I absolutely agree with many suggestions here in that they make common sense, and would improve your situation, I don't think most of them are the "root cause" of your problem, other wise the stove wouldn't work fine for the 2-3hrs after cleaning, would it?

Going to 4" pipe?...of course you should do that with so many bends. But if that was causing the problem, it would never burn fine. And I've never been a fan of the "stove in the basement" method...I know a lot that do it, just never made sense to me. I want the stove up in my living space, period.

But since the stove DOES run fine, for a few hours...then my guess is that when you clean it, you're PARTIALLY cleaning some spot you're not really aware of, maybe near the blower, and it runs fine for a few hours, UNTIL you get more ash/dirt/whatever...and then back to lazy-flame you to.

I'm betting the shopvac deal works...that was my favorite , but then do the OTHER stuff too.

Jim

 

[sydney1963]

If you go by what I have posted below it shouldn't add up to more than 15. My set up all adds up to 17 and works fine but I wouldn't suggest going any higher than that. Hope the below information helps. Here is the link where I found it. http://www.nevelsstoves.com/articles/Venting-your-pellet-stove.htm

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First let us understand what we can not do as to the location for the termination of the vent pipe. If your planned termination location falls at any of the below described location, it is critical to select an alternative location. Do not compromise as the safety of your family and others will be at risk. 1. Less then 3 feet above any forced air inlet located within 10 feet 2. Less then 4 feet below or horizontally from, or 1 foot above, any door, window or gravity air inlet into any building. 3. Less then 2 feet from an adjacent building and less than 7 feet above grade when located adjacent next to a public walk way. Mobil home installations must use a spark arrester. 4. Termination should not be located where it might ignite trees, shrubs, dry grasses or be a hazard to children as exhaust gases can reach 500 degrees and cause serious burns if touched. 5. Do not install vent pipe into chimneys shared by other appliances, as you can get a back draft and causing the exhaust from one to the other appliances to come back into the home through the other appliance.

Pellet stoves have to push the exhaust air through the vent pipe with the stove's exhaust fan. With less restriction your pellet stove will breathe easier and burn more efficiently. First let's clarify the word restriction. Restrictions come from several different items.

45 degree elbows
90 degree elbows
Horizontal distance
Vertical distance
Elevation where you live.

A rule of thumb equation we are using has been adopted by most pellet manufactures. The equation is called the sum of Equivalent Vent Length (EVL). All of the above mentioned venting restrictions have been assigned EVL values as follows:

Each 45 degree elbow = 3 EVL
Each 90 degree elbow and Tees with cleanout = 5 EVL
Each foot of horizontal run = 1 EVL
Each foot of Vertical run = 0.5 EVL
Elevations above 3000 ft with an EVL of 7 must adapt to 4 inch vent pipe.

If your installation is below 3000ft, we would need to do some math. The rule of thumb equations is that if the sum of the EVL is 15 or greater, then the pellet vent pipe would be increased to 4 inch diameter pellet vent pipe.

 

[harmanhater]

Thanks. But every installation manual chart and explain all clearances. Don't forget a clean out "T" is counted as a 90 degree. Most reputable dealer installations use 4" pipe to prevent any draft/restriction problems. BUT, I haven't heard of ANY installation company that checks completely for air leaks. A money saving/ or self install will most likely use 3" pipe. Also ALL humidity in any house drops to the lowest point of any basement (natural pressure). That is why if you don't need to heat your basement, (with a pellet stove) place your stove up in the living area. If you do need it say in a basement family room, use 4" pipe which also offsets the basement pressure. Not everthing written in a manual is true, just a basic guide. Real life problems, "repiping a factory trained installation", changing gaskets (or not) just by looking at their condition?? An air leak must be found and fixed! Remember, CO2 is oderless AND can build up in your blood stream over years of small exposure. If you have the correct size piping, completely cleaned EVERY INCH of your stove, and (it works great for a night) then you still have a yellow lazy flame, then completely seal all inside pipe COMPLETELY and change the gaskets where ever they might be. (The Excell pipe seems to be THE best designed anywhere, but it still needs to be checked for leaks!) Their clean out "T" has a gasket sealed clean out panel, which allows you to brush it, vacuum it, or blow it in both directions! (then seal it, don't rely on the gasket.)