Please help, fear instilled by others on install job

[PeteD]

Listen .... and you can fill in all the dirty names here.

how do you sitting on that end looking at my install and determine that "and it doesn’t have 1 inch clearance"
are you OK in the head, I fricken build this stuff, I have pictures of it you .... *%^#!$%

I don't need your blindfolded opinion to tell me that there is not 1 inch fricken clearance when in fact,
I can stick a finger comfortably behind the whole thing, get your head out of the ground man!

the framing is all 1 inch clearance from the masonry brick but ofcourse you know best sitting all the way
over there having no part of my install. yet somehow you can tel me there is not, you must have been
here while I was putting it together.

I'm done with you twisting and turning words around OK!

it's not just yellow insulation and it's not no 1 inch clearance,
try being here and putting it together then telling me that.

trust me I know what I'm looking at, I build it didn't I ?

the fireplace is just what it is, a masonry hole in the wall,
I framed out around it and the front and side portions sticks out past the old masonry work.

1 INCH specifically

you must know best we'll have to figure.


your right, we'll just ASSUME it's just yellow insulation because you find it expensive or something.


thanks for everything but no thanks

Why are you flying off the handle?

I think Brent is making very thoughtful comments for you to consider, in a constructive way. I can understand you having a greater sensitivity to comment, since it is your handy-work and your house. Part of what he is saying (and what I tried to show with my picture), is don't always take an installer's or an inspector's word as 100% right. If you check out some code-based forums, you will see inspectors who disagree with other inspectors, and not all are created equal.

Instead of the post above, can you show more pictures to demonstrate how things are positioned?

You did come asking for comments in the first place, and I think you got some people trying to help you out.

Remember that typed words can be hard to interpret for tone....I think everyone posting here was trying to help, but we only have the pictures and the words to guide us.

Pete

 

[Chief Ryan]

About ten years ago i had my fireplace built basically brand new. Although that wasn't my original plan.

The way my house is laid out is one large room (great room) including dining and living rooms. In the center of the room are two steps leading to the living room where the fireplace is. The fireplace use to be to the right side of the steps as you walked up. It looked really stupid. We shopped around and found a mason who said he could move the firebox over in the existing chimney with a small extension on the outside. Well it didn't turn out like i had hoped. We had to have the entire fireplace and chimney torn to the ground and rebuilt. The chimney is about 7' wide and 25' tall. We sued and settled. In the end we wound up getting exactly what we wanted but it was very stressful.

During the process i learned a lot about chimneys, fireplaces and codes. I don't remember all the clearance's but i do remember having to cut down into my floor to build something called a deefening (not sure on the spelling but it sounds like it's spelled)

My floor joists are 6". I had to cut out the floor beneath the hearth put a piece of plywood in there so the mason could pour cement into it. He put rebar so he could attach it to the chimney on the outside as he went up. It's meant to prevent the hearth from cracking where the hearth and fireplace meet. Houses have been burnt down because ashes would go down the crack and land on the floor under the hearth. By putting in the deefening (spelling) that gets rid of any combustibles under the hearth.

So what i'm getting at is that you only have a small piece of stone between the insert and the plywood beneath the hearth. So if you drop some ash on the hearth, some day it could get through. I know it's a insert and not an open fireplace and i'm sure that make a huge difference but i just thought i'd let you know what happened to me.

By no means am i saying anything negative on the install. It looks great. But i would listen to these guys. There's a lot of info on this site.

 

[elmoleaf]

Per Osburn 1800 installation manual "1.1 Masonry & Zero Clearance Requirements: The masonry fireplace must meet the minimum code requirements, or NFPA 211 or the equivalent for a safe installation." - (broken link removed to http://www.osburn-mfg.com/forcedownload.aspx?strFile=images/poeles/manuel_en/4851132922008263)

Your masonry fireplace, because of how you constructed the hearth extension, does not meet the minimum requirements for a masonry fireplace hearth extension, at least here in the US. Therefore, Osburn probably does not consider your insert installation safe.

NFPA, CABO code, the International Residential Code and others all typically indicate that a masonry fireplace hearth extension be brick, concrete, stone, tile, or other approved noncombustible material properly supported and with no combustible material against the underside thereof. Wooden forms used during the construction of hearth and hearth extensions shall be removed when the construction is completed..

Here's a picture (this is from the CABO code...not sure if it's current)

It appears from some of your photos that you may've originally had a compliant extension. It looks like you demo'd a stone slab, supported by brick, which looks like it was supported by a concrete slab at floor level that extends from within the chimney structure.
Assuming that is correct, you should replace the wood studs supporting your new stone with metal studs resting on the same concrete slab. Then you'd have a noncombustible hearth extension.

Also, note, if you should ever sell the home and the insert gets removed and a new owner starts burning wood in your fireplace, it will likely ignite your current wood hearth extension support structure. I've seen it happen firsthand....mortar joint between hearth floor and non-code compliant extension failed and embers got down into wood structure below.

 

[67ref]

wrong instruction manual.

look for the 1800i version, I've read it a thousand time by now and what you display above is not anywhere in the manual for this unit.

thanks for the input.

 

[PeteD]

wrong instruction manual.

look for the 1800i version, I've read it a thousand time by now and what you display above is not anywhere in the manual for this unit.

thanks for the input.

The part from your installation manual is only Section 1.1 (the sentence in quotes at the very beginning of the post). I have seen that part in the 1800i manual on the Osburn site, which may differ from the one that same with your stove. The rest is dealing with a code-compliant fireplace, as referenced in the manual. I recall hearing that mods to a fireplace must not render the fireplace as non-compliant to be used again without the insert. My old ZC could not be used with an insert anyway, so I had to rip it out.

 

[oconnor]

The pictures are from CABO code, not from the manual. He said that above. The quote is from a manual for Osburn 1800 insert found at (broken link removed) . No mention of an 1800i on the site. I suspect the "i" stands for insert, vice thier 1800 stove. All the insert manuals on the site make mention of the fireplace needing to meet code before install.

 

[67ref]

Listen .... and you can fill in all the dirty names here.

how do you sitting on that end looking at my install and determine that "and it doesn’t have 1 inch clearance"
are you OK in the head, I fricken build this stuff, I have pictures of it you .... *%^#!$%

I don't need your blindfolded opinion to tell me that there is not 1 inch fricken clearance when in fact,
I can stick a finger comfortably behind the whole thing, get your head out of the ground man!

the framing is all 1 inch clearance from the masonry brick but ofcourse you know best sitting all the way
over there having no part of my install. yet somehow you can tel me there is not, you must have been
here while I was putting it together.

I'm done with you twisting and turning words around OK!

it's not just yellow insulation and it's not no 1 inch clearance,
try being here and putting it together then telling me that.

trust me I know what I'm looking at, I build it didn't I ?

the fireplace is just what it is, a masonry hole in the wall,
I framed out around it and the front and side portions sticks out past the old masonry work.

1 INCH specifically

you must know best we'll have to figure.


your right, we'll just ASSUME it's just yellow insulation because you find it expensive or something.


thanks for everything but no thanks

OK pal, you are the man.....

You are being very brash here. Does the wood touch the brick? If it does, then it doesn't have any clearance, if it doesn't then it doesn't and all you have to do is state that, not blow up at someone who came to your aide. If you want to reread your response to me, and to the last guy in your last thread, you may see that you seem to not want the truth- you came here for information, and you got it.

In fact, you came here SCARED with FEAR, and you were looking for facts.

Fact - you have no idea what the insulation is - I hope it is the right stuff.
Fact - you don't like what you are hearing from me - then don't read it - but don't say you didn't get the information that you asked for,
Fact - you are being a raving fool to those who who want to help you do the right thing. I realize that it SUCKS to find out you spent THOUSANDS on an install to find out the expert was wrong - that is why I post here on this forum, because it happened to me - I spent THOUSANDS on an install to disciver it doesn't meet code.

To bad.....

Brent,
I'm pretty sure by now I've explained a couple of times now that the wood framing is not touching the brick, see the pictures,
so perhaps this time around you can let it sink into your complex brain that the wood has clearance, try and take my word for it
as I build it and because I'm telling you, not because you didn 't do your own work, paid thousands and got burned somehow.

I'm not getting into it with you anymore, you seem to just sit there and make assumption and then write them as facts.
you have no idea and you can obviously not take information in and process it correctly.

now I just want to correct you once again on your facts.

Fact: The framing is build around the brick, does not touch brick and has a 1 inch clearance, try and take my word for it this time as I build it not you.

Fact: it is you that does not know what my insulation batting is, you won't take my word for it when I tell you that I recall that it said to be KAOWOOL,
I remember it when dicussing it with the vendor and I had my hands on it because I had it out, was given fresh pieces and repositioned in myself
properly as I was sealing in the metal hard block-off. I have some small pieces left over downstairs and is much thinner then the original batting used for
insulating foundations and the texture is different as well. don't assume I don't know and you know best when you have no idea what it looks like or feels like.

Fact: Don't assume because like a fool yourself you paids thousands for someone else to do your work for you and it went wrong that therefor I must have spend
thousands myself on the install. truth being I did not spend thousands on the install, yes we spend a few thousand on the unit itself but the actual putting it in the
masonry hole and adding a linner was less then any thousands that you now bring up, (not the same as your situation with your mistakes)

I asked for some input yes I did !
I didn't expect for some to start pulling up stuff they never had a hand in, like telling me that I do not have 1 inch clearances from the brick when in fact
I do and I've been stating that there is the required clearance as per code from my locals, perhaps different were you are from but it got an approval
from officials with a stamp on a building permit and work was permitted. I'm pretty sure that if it was not to code, they would not have approved my
application with the drawings and all and let me go ahead and build something like this if it wasn't safe. these guys aren't an overnight shop OK,
it's all done through the office of Building Permits at one location here in Ontario Canada. it's a city thing.

This is an Insert model, it is tested to ULC 628 and from what I'm told it is approved to sit in an existing masonry unit and has required
clearances around it which I applied for with drawings and all and was approved. don't know what to tell you but those are the facts.

there is metal ductwork material at the joint where the unit meets the masonry to the heart stone, not only approved
but was added as I didn't have it on my drawings and was a requirement by building permits, or a recommendations at least.
this was done in order to not have any cracks in the mortor at a later time and have hot ambers fall down between.

this is "NOT" a stand alone unit and does NOT require 18" legs on the bottom to ensure clearances to the floor.

thank you, I'm done!

 

[67ref]

The pictures are from CABO code, not from the manual. He said that above. The quote is from a manual for Osburn 1800 insert found at (broken link removed) . No mention of an 1800i on the site. I suspect the "i" stands for insert, vice thier 1800 stove. All the insert manuals on the site make mention of the fireplace needing to meet code before install.

yes I just realized that and will look into it but it's not the same as mu situation.

the 1800i for the insert model is located at: (broken link removed to http://www.osburn-mfg.com/product.aspx?CategoId=7&Id=245)

is differs from the 1800 manual which is a stand alone unit on legs.

the Codes around here would not have signed off on my request to build it like this if it wasn't to code or safe for that matter.

the firebox itself does not actually rest on the heart extention, it fits inside the old masonry firebrick hole and the glass door and
blower unit rest outwards onto the extention. the extention is for spark control I'm sure.

There is concrete poured down below, visible from the basement but it is a raised unit so therfor the extention up and out,
covered with no-combustible material and for added safety a piece of metal at the point were stone meets fireplace.

and again: APPROVED BY OFFICIALS AT THE BUILDING PERMITS OFFICE !

 

[67ref]

BTW look at the exeption clause in that doc.
meets what is going on with mine as well, it says materials of a certain thickness may be used as non-combustible

 

[67ref]

I've been given a number to a Fire Prevention Marshall's office (something like that)
straight from the fire department, we've played telephone tag today so I'm hoping to get somewhere tomorrow.

I'm going to request a visit and inspection and state that it was signed off on my Building Permits office
and I'll explain that it's this forum here that now has me all concerned and that I would like a profesional
opinion on all this, I will show photos, documents and I'll even remove the surround so he can have a good look at it.

We'll go from there ... all these comments from individuals that paid others to do it and got it wrong don't serve me any good
other then a real good doze of aggravation and a headache to boot.

it's just making my head spin with people on this forum stating wrong informations even after I've explained it
as best as I can and even shown the situation with photos and all.

A fire marshall will set my mind at ease or not if there is in fact something wrong with it.

you have to remember I only have to go by what is required and when I'm asked to submit all the drawings
plus include manufactures' documentation on the unit being installed for them to review to determine
if it's approved or not.


they reviewed the submitted materials, it got approved, I did the work, it got inspected,
and that's all I have to go by with for now.

then a month after the fact, I get responses here from know-it-all's that it is not to code.

thank you for that!

to ease my pains it's all going to get reviews and we'll have to wait and see what the outcome is.
if it's wrong then I have a problem with the Building Permits office for signing off on this.

I will contact them tomorrow aswell and state that I'm getting response that what they approved
might appearently not be safe. we'll see what they have to say.

currently I have "official" stamps on "official" papers that indicates it's to code and approved,
I'll have it all reviewed and I'll see what the Fire Prevention Marshall says.

I appreciate the input .. but there are comments to unrelated situations
and it all started with that someone said this Osburn 1800i Bayview "must" sit on 18" legs
which is wrong!

then there are those that turn my words around and tell me that I do not have clearances when in fact I do!
(even after I had already mentioned this a couple of time as well shown photos which clearly indicate so.)

 

[begreen]

The pictures are from CABO code, not from the manual. He said that above. The quote is from a manual for Osburn 1800 insert found at (broken link removed) . No mention of an 1800i on the site. I suspect the "i" stands for insert, vice thier 1800 stove. All the insert manuals on the site make mention of the fireplace needing to meet code before install.

I downloaded the 1800i manual this morning. It's link in on the 1800i web page.

(broken link removed to http://www.osburn-mfg.com/product.aspx?CategoId=7&Id=245)

 

[Shari]

67ref

Just a couple of things I would like to mention:

1. Way back in your original post I questioned the 2x4's supporting your new hearth. Apparently (by your photos) your original hearth was supported by cement blocks. Now you are in Canada, I am in the US and codes can be different. If your inspectors approved the 2'x4's in your hearth then so be it.

2. On page 14 of your owner's manual it states "We recommend that you have a fresh air or make up air supply for the insert. In Canada this is a
building code requirement." - yet I didn't see any mention of this in your install photos. If I missed this install please accept my apologizes.

Shari

 

[bren582]

I'm left to wonder why you didn't go with the cement block to support the new hearth as was the case with the original and why you didn't just fasten the durock directly to the existing brick firebox and trim around that to the wall which would have left you with plenty of clearence. I also don't see any indication of a gap between the wood frame and the brick. As far as I can tell your pictures don't show that. Did you use tapcons or something to create the gap?

That's to much wood for my liking code compliant be damned. As for the insulation above the block plate, it's not koawool or ceramic blanket as that product is white. What you have there is either fiberglass or maybe some type of rockwool regardless of what you were told..

Yup.. Monday morning quarterback for sure. Coming apart at the seems and taking things so personally will not further your cause.. Filter the feedback and learn from it.. When you are told by someone with certs out the wazoo that fiberglass and wood framing is OK around a fire application you definetly need to take that advise with a large grain of salt. I don't want anything combustable around my fireplace except the wood going into it..

 

[fossil]

If I may be so bold as to copy and paste my own post from the OP's other thread over in The Perfect Picture forum discussing the same intallation:

As the OP has explained in some detail in two different threads, the actual firebox of his insert is completely contained within and supported by the original intact masonry fireplace structure. That portion of his insert extending out to the front is viewing window and blower enclosure. If the manufacturer’s instructions specify only a non-combustible surface required for the hearth extension in front of the insert, then that’s that. The OP has more than met that requirement. If it were an appliance which required some specified r-value for the hearth, then that would be a different story. This installation appears to me to be perfectly safe and sound, as well as quite nicely executed. If everyone setting out to do a DIY woodburning appliance installation did their homework as thoroughly as the OP has apparently done, the world would be a safer place. None of us here is the local Authority Having Jurisdiction. The OP has unfailingly engaged those professionals throughout his project, and they, who are on the scene, with the requisite knowledge and experience and credentials to say yea or nay have passed it with flying colors. I say we get off his case and stop nit-picking and second-guessing and simply congratulate him on a job exceptionally well done. Rick

 

[elmoleaf]

A hearth extension supported by wood is not acceptable in any building code in my profession that I'm aware of.
The fact that the masonry fireplace doesn't meet NFPA 211 or other codes--because of the wood under the extension--makes discussing the rest of the insert installation & the instructions a moot point. The directions for a masonry fireplace installation are predicated on beginning with a code compliant masonry fireplace. Yours is not. And again, per section 1.1 of any Osburn insert manual as previously referenced, Osburn considers it an unsafe installation.
If the approved plans you previously submitted did not detail demolition of the original hearth extension and the use of wood supports, you may get negative feedback when the inspector sees the completed work.

In the end, however the local inspector wants it built is usually how it gets done, irrespective of what the code or any installation manual may state. That however doesn't always equal what is desirable. In the end, it may be safe enough as long as it's not used as a fireplace again.

Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[67ref]

67ref

Just a couple of things I would like to mention:

1. Way back in your original post I questioned the 2x4's supporting your new hearth. Apparently (by your photos) your original hearth was supported by cement blocks. Now you are in Canada, I am in the US and codes can be different. If your inspectors approved the 2'x4's in your hearth then so be it.

2. On page 14 of your owner's manual it states "We recommend that you have a fresh air or make up air supply for the insert. In Canada this is a
building code requirement." - yet I didn't see any mention of this in your install photos. If I missed this install please accept my apologizes.

Shari

- - - -

Shari,
I'm not going to get into it anymore with all you know-it-alls, besides I'm too busy enjoying my ragging hot fire.

point blank, when I went to the Building Permits office they asked what year my house was,
1973, this then voids fresh air requirements, newer homes require fresh air supply.

we have fresh air supply in the basement, since we put in a new oil furnace.
we have plenty of good drafts in this some what older home, still to this date
working on sealing up small drafts in the basement and doors and such.

don't you worry your pretty little head about it, 2X4 wooden structures or not,
fresh air supply or not, it's all good according to the Fire Prevention representative
that visited and inspected the sistuation this morning.

PS: get a stove will ya !

 

[67ref]

If I may be so bold as to copy and paste my own post from the OP's other thread over in The Perfect Picture forum discussing the same intallation:

As the OP has explained in some detail in two different threads, the actual firebox of his insert is completely contained within and supported by the original intact masonry fireplace structure. That portion of his insert extending out to the front is viewing window and blower enclosure. If the manufacturer’s instructions specify only a non-combustible surface required for the hearth extension in front of the insert, then that’s that. The OP has more than met that requirement. If it were an appliance which required some specified r-value for the hearth, then that would be a different story. This installation appears to me to be perfectly safe and sound, as well as quite nicely executed. If everyone setting out to do a DIY woodburning appliance installation did their homework as thoroughly as the OP has apparently done, the world would be a safer place. None of us here is the local Authority Having Jurisdiction. The OP has unfailingly engaged those professionals throughout his project, and they, who are on the scene, with the requisite knowledge and experience and credentials to say yea or nay have passed it with flying colors. I say we get off his case and stop nit-picking and second-guessing and simply congratulate him on a job exceptionally well done. Rick

- - - -

Everthing inspected this morning by a Fire Prevention representive (aka: the fire department)
a good hour long visit full of reviewing the unit including the chimney along with plenty of discussion.


also spoke with SBI, spoke with Vendor, spoke with Building Permits office.

it's official, IT'S TO CODE AND GOOD TO CONTINUE USING.

was told to stop hanging out here on this forum. (that should tell you something)

I'll take the officials words for it and our insurance company has all the required paperwork.

thanks for coming out folks !

 

[dswineford]

"stop hanging out here on this forum"

I TOLD YOU SO

If I said it looks good. e-nuf said

 

[Rudyjr]

Congratulations 67Ref you have gone above and beyond what most do on their installs when it comes to inspections. Look forward to seeing some pictures of the finished project. Enjoy, Jim

 

[GatorDL55]

In sales and in life, people make decisions and then try to justify them after the fact. I know people went back and forth, but in the end, if you have justified it and are comfortable with it, great! Enjoy your fireplace and best of luck with it.

 

[r_d_gard]

After reading all the diatribe from the original post, I just wanted 67ref to finish posting the rest of his photos of the install. It looks great, what did it look like in the end.