Pennsylvania (sw) Newbie with small house

[Catia]

The small locust pile I have was actually cut late fall of '13.
I do clearly understand about seasoned wood.
I'm not installing it for about a year. Meaning next spring I should be ready to install.

I might buy some wood this spring only as a back up to have on hand so there is no rush to downing the trees, as I have to have someone else do that.

Now some things I have to be clear about, I have some limitations, & I know what they are
Simply stated: ...Size matters.
Some of you may not think handling 16" splits is a big deal.
If you're male, your probably a foot taller than me & twice my weight.
I'm 5'1" & slightly over 100lbs, and gutting houses & remodeling has taught me where my limits are.

I'd rather take the time to cut to 12", or maybe even 10" if that means it is easier for me to lug around back & forth on a regular basis.
This is something I have already factored in.
My stove won't be my primary heat, so I am not as concerned with long over night burns.

What is nice, for me at least, is that the size of wood required for most of the small stoves actually works for me.
And also, now with the higher efficiency, I can still get a decent amount of heat out of a stove that requires smaller splits.

The bigger issue will be trying to convince my pooch that those wood piles are not treats for her, & figuring out a way to train her to bring me some firewood. She has zero issue handling 16" splits--& jaws of steel to whittle them down LOL. But seriously, I might get her a doggie backpack to carry some into the house.

 

[Grisu]

If you like the look of soapstone I would highly recommend a Woodstock Keystone/Palladian. That will allow you to burn with a low heat output for a long time while still having some of the lowest emissions possible.

 

[JA600L]

The small locust pile I have was actually cut late fall of '13.
I do clearly understand about seasoned wood.
I'm not installing it for about a year. Meaning next spring I should be ready to install.

I might buy some wood this spring only as a back up to have on hand so there is no rush to downing the trees, as I have to have someone else do that.

Now some things I have to be clear about, I have some limitations, & I know what they are
Simply stated: ...Size matters.
Some of you may not think handling 16" splits is a big deal.
If you're male, your probably a foot taller than me & twice my weight.
I'm 5'1" & slightly over 100lbs, and gutting houses & remodeling has taught me where my limits are.

I'd rather take the time to cut to 12", or maybe even 10" if that means it is easier for me to lug around back & forth on a regular basis.
This is something I have already factored in.
My stove won't be my primary heat, so I am not as concerned with long over night burns.

What is nice, for me at least, is that the size of wood required for most of the small stoves actually works for me.
And also, now with the higher efficiency, I can still get a decent amount of heat out of a stove that requires smaller splits.

The bigger issue will be trying to convince my pooch that those wood piles are not treats for her, & figuring out a way to train her to bring me some firewood. She has zero issue handling 16" splits--& jaws of steel to whittle them down LOL. But seriously, I might get her a doggie backpack to carry some into the house.

You may not be concerned about getting heat out of your stove all night, but you might not want to build a new fire every single morning. You want to have a good coal bed to reload on. There is nothing worse then waking up to a cold stove full of ash.

 

[HotCoals]

Yep. you maybe just get hooked on wood heating!

It's addicting!

cheers!

 

[Simonkenton]

Six hundred square feet. Damn!
I thought I had a little house, at 1,200 sq. ft, and I am building a 500 sq ft addition starting next week.
I think a couple of wax candles would heat your house.

 

[HotCoals]

Six hundred square feet. Damn!
I thought I had a little house, at 1,200 sq. ft, and I am building a 500 sq ft addition starting next week.
I think a couple of wax candles would heat your house.


I know. My family room is 500 sq.ft.
Maybe we do live too large.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Now some things I have to be clear about, I have some limitations, & I know what they are
Simply stated: ...Size matters.
Some of you may not think handling 16" splits is a big deal.
If you're male, your probably a foot taller than me & twice my weight.
I'm 5'1" & slightly over 100lbs, and gutting houses & remodeling has taught me where my limits are.

I'd rather take the time to cut to 12", or maybe even 10" if that means it is easier for me to lug around back & forth on a regular basis.
This is something I have already factored in.
My stove won't be my primary heat, so I am not as concerned with long over night burns.

What is nice, for me at least, is that the size of wood required for most of the small stoves actually works for me.
And also, now with the higher efficiency, I can still get a decent amount of heat out of a stove that requires smaller splits.

Two things. As a former Tribute owner in a house just a bit too large for it, I loved the stove. But... 16-inch splits NOT. The firebox is 16 inches, but the door is something like 12. which means you can put one or max two 16-inchers in the box, but then you need shorter. I did fine with 14. It's infuriating that Hearthstone persists in listing this as 16-inches.

I have a minor hip issue that's exacerbated by lugging heavy loads, but I solved it quite easily by loading up the cardboard boxes I use with less and just doing one more trip. Not a big deal. There are also any number of good carts out there that are designed to come into the house and carry a couple hundred pounds of wood with ease. I burn 24/7, and 4 or 5 boxes of 14-inchers a day was all I needed with the Tribute. Now I have a larger stove and 16-inch wood, and 5 boxes is plenty for a day's worth except in the coldest weather.

The weight also depends on what kind of wood you're burning. The higher the BTU, the heavier the split. I can bring in a full box of white birch with no problem, but only a half-filled box of beech or black birch or hickory.

In other words, don't even think about the extra weight of a 16-inch split versus a 14 or even 12-incher. It just isn't a factor. When I was a kid, my mother used to tell me all the time that what I was trying to carry was a "lazy man's load"-- meaning wayyyy too much at one go in order to make fewer trips. Since my hip started acting up, I've reformed. Carrying in 5 or 6 loads instead of 4 makes me impatient, but it's honestly only a couple more minutes and much easier on the body.

 

[Catia]

Yes, the house is small, but as far as tiny houses go, it doesn't 'qualify' as a "tiny house".
I never know where I fit in as far as the tiny house or tiny cabin communities, I am way big LOL.

I like to think of this house as one of the "original" tiny houses! You know--before it became "cool".

This small house was originally 1/2 the size when built sometime in the 1920's, it was a 2 room cape cod type house!
Original foundation was only 12x24! They counted the attic loft area as the 2nd room.
The couple that bought it in the 40's added on because they had kids, so there were 5 people living in this small house.
The foundation is now 24x24...
The mom lived there into her late 90's, cut her own grass til she was 93!

Technically, I feel I have more than 600 sq ft, 1st floor is 576sq ft, but I do have an attic space with "dedicated stairs" that spans the original house.
But those dedicated stairs are grandfathered in-I doubt they'd be allowed now & the ceiling is mostly sloped & low.
The bathroom is in this attic area where a dormer was constructed. The rest is more of a "loft".
I also have the original basement, which inside is about 10x22.---So space a plenty!

 

[Lockpicker]

Yep you missed it all. This is a private organization that has nothing whatsoever to do with the EPA.

Well excuuuuse me.

He who knows all has spoken.

 

[cspalding0926@gmailcom]

I have heard mixed reviews on high efficiency stoves: need to burn hotter to achieve secondary combustion, burning more fuel than a 400 degree fire dampered in a non epa stove. For this reason alone i am installing a standard burn wood furnace. Besides of claims of 95% burn efficiency is just ridiculous. Gas furnaces have a hard time achieving this, much less wood burners. I think as with all newer technology, i think it takes decades to achieve perfection. Not that they dont work but i always say dont fix it if it isnt broke. Sorry to ramble on, maybe i should have started a thread about this theory.

 

[bholler]

I have heard mixed reviews on high efficiency stoves: need to burn hotter to achieve secondary combustion, burning more fuel than a 400 degree fire dampered in a non epa stove. For this reason alone i am installing a standard burn wood furnace. Besides of claims of 95% burn efficiency is just ridiculous. Gas furnaces have a hard time achieving this, much less wood burners. I think as with all newer technology, i think it takes decades to achieve perfection. Not that they dont work but i always say dont fix it if it isnt broke. Sorry to ramble on, maybe i should have started a thread about this theory.

Sorry but you are just wrong you absolutly use way more wood in an old stove to make the same amount of heat. And what stove claims 95% efficiency? The bad reviews are generally from people who don't know how to use the stove and who have bad fuel

 

[begreen]

Catia, The little Morso is a nice stove. Your best bet for burning smoke free will be to only burn fully seasoned wood. That can be challenging to find, especially cut for a small stove. Oak and hickory need a couple years to season. Ash needs a year. An alternative would be to burn a high quality compressed log or brick fuel.

PS: Even a pellet stove smokes a bit on startup. At least ours did.

 

[Catia]

I have heard mixed reviews on high efficiency stoves: need to burn hotter to achieve secondary combustion, burning more fuel than a 400 degree fire dampered in a non epa stove. For this reason alone i am installing a standard burn wood furnace. Besides of claims of 95% burn efficiency is just ridiculous. Gas furnaces have a hard time achieving this, much less wood burners. I think as with all newer technology, i think it takes decades to achieve perfection. Not that they dont work but i always say dont fix it if it isnt broke. Sorry to ramble on, maybe i should have started a thread about this theory.

Hmmm, I have no idea where you are getting those 95% wood stove efficiency ratings from-my suspicion is that it is not from a reliable source, meaning not from the manufacturer or the EPA.

You really need to get your info from the proper sources.

When you go the EPA site & view the list, you will see there is even a difference between what the manufacturer lists as their #'s & what the test required by the EPA actually came out to be.

On the EPA website, you can download the list of EPA certified wood stoves & use that as a reference.
It is in alphabetical order.
This list will not only give you the manufacturer's name, & the make/model, but also the actual BTU output (min to max) from the tests & the "default" efficiency, which is what the EPA states it is based on the info from the tests.
It also clearly states the Emission Rate in G/Hr.


Painfully few stove manufacturers have completed the "actual measured efficiency" which is per CSA B 415.1, because it is NOT a required test in order to gain the EPA certification, & it is also expensive.

The stove manufacturers that have done this specific testing of "Actual Measured Efficiency" on *some* of their models are
(per EPA list dated February 2015) :
Blaze King-many
Fireplace Products International--a few
GHP Group-a couple
Jotul (f602 cb only)
Kuma (ashwood)
Pacific Energy -a few
Seraph Industries
Sherwood Industries
Travis Industries

Unforgetable Fire LLC (Kimberly &Katydid) states they did the "actual measured efficiency" testing, that info is online, but it is not listed on the EPA site as of yet, maybe it will be on an updated list in the near future. They of course claim to be higher than everyone else who DID make it onto the list for this specific test. They've got a pretty neat thing going, cutting edge, but they are expensive, more niche market as I see it, out of reach to the regular joe.

It is difficult to cut through all of the BS & know where to actually look for the info.
That is the reason I am here, to share the info & to find out where others are getting their info so I can be properly informed.

I, personally, would never believe anything coming out of a sales person's mouth, or that I simply see online, & if I do not see it documented in writing by some type of legitimate authority that I can reference myself, I do not believe it.

 

[Squirrel]

Oak and hickory need a couple years to season. Ash needs a year.

This may be true for 16" splits on the West coast but for me a 10"X4" split for a Morso will be dry in two or three months. I can burn ash now that was cut in December and split in February!

 

[Catia]

begreen, the Morso 1410 is still my front runner, with the Hearthstone Tribute (soapstone)as my 2nd.

I looked at Woodstock Soapstone, I do not doubt their quality, but looks wise they'd be out of place, they seem a bit more Victorian-like looking, whereas the Tribute, especially in matte black, is not over stated & can still fit in to a semi-rustic setting.

I'm thinking I want to contact Morso directly & ask if placing a soapstone top on the 1410 would change anything important, meaning as far as risking damage to the inside. I have seen a few pics of Morso's with soapstone sides...

My concern may or may not be valid, I understand the basics of the science of thermal mass, but am unclear what it can affect (if anything) internally.
I guess the best way to formulate my question might be: is that adding soapstone at 1.5 inches thick as thermal mass to top & or sides cause inner temps to remain too high for too long?

I know the question may seem silly, BUT-these stoves are already built to operate properly under specific conditions, & if you change certain conditions, it can drastically affect the stove in some circumstances.

For example-having a flue that is too large causes too much cooling of the flue gases & affects not only efficiency, but also creosote build up.

I've been trying to read up & understand adding thermal mass to stoves & around stoves, but mostly end up getting hits on rocket mass stove type of stuff, which I am not interested in.

The devil is always in the details, & I was raised in a family with engineers, so these things are ingrained in me.
If they were still with me, I'd just ask them what calcs were needed or what I needed to ask the manufacturer, but I'm on my own now. .........................Thermodynamics ain't my forte ...

 

[Catia]

This may be true for 16" splits on the West coast but for me a 10"X4" split for a Morso will be dry in two or three months. I can burn ash now that was cut in December and split in February!

Yes, the smaller splits do dry out faster, i's one of the things I factor in about needing to cut smaller, but me personally, I'd not burn small splits of hardwood unless they were split for about a year.

It's been drilled into my head that regular sized hardwood splits perform best-meaning burn hottest at the 2 yr mark.

It is good to know that in a pinch I might be able to burn small splits sooner, but it's not something I personally would practice in my own stove outside of gross necessity in an emergency, with wood being stored outside in my climate. I will be getting one of those moisture meters though, so my mind might change when this all comes to fruition.

 

[begreen]

begreen, the Morso 1410 is still my front runner, with the Hearthstone Tribute (soapstone)as my 2nd.

I looked at Woodstock Soapstone, I do not doubt their quality, but looks wise they'd be out of place, they seem a bit more Victorian-like looking, whereas the Tribute, especially in matte black, is not over stated & can still fit in to a semi-rustic setting.

Agreed, the Fireview is Victorian styled. It wouldn't work in our house either. In Woodstock I would be looking at the Keystone or Palladian.

The flue and it's draft is the engine of the fire. For best performance you want it well matched to the stove's requirements.

 

[Catia]

begreen, on the woodstocks, I just do not like the look of any of them.

It's a personal aesthetic thing-something with the lines of the designs on them & feet doesn't match what I like.

If someone gave me one for free, I'd take it no doubt & use it til it died, & I am sure I would love the function of it, but I'd still long the look of the Hearthstone Tribute. It just "does it" for me.

Mostly now I am focusing on the Morso 1410 Squirrel.

I have shot off my email questions about whether or not the stove is affected internally by adding a full slab of 1.5 inch soapstone to the entire top of the stove externally.

The questions were sent to Morso in Denmark, because I want an answer from someone NOT in sales, as to whether adding to the top affects ANYTHING internally in any negative way.

My gut tells me it does change something, but whether it is significant enough to matter is the question.

People add pots & trivets & cook on top of the stoves, without negative effect, but that is not covering the entire top all of the time.

I've searched on here to answer that question, but mostly it was opinion, & some experimenting, but no one contacted any manufactures directly to see if it affected any specs.

An online search did reveal something interesting from Kuma about different clearances required if you add their optional soapstone top--so something DOES change in that circumstance. I do not yet have the exact specs for that situation, but it appears that you need additional clearance-not less-if you add the soapstone top. I will have to look for the specs that accompany the soapstone top to see what they are & compare. Haven't found that doc yet.

Hopefully Morso will respond to my inquiry with some details, since they do manufacture wood stoves incased in soapstone. I am hoping the response will be more than "the 1410 stove is not designed for that buy one of our soapstone models"...

I want some big fast radiant heat, but also I want some slower radiating retained heat. I want the best of both worlds, but in a small stove, pickins are SLIM.

If there is something I can change in the environment I put my stove in, or adding something small to it, I'll do that, because then I can add as my budget allows. Since it is a small space, little differences are noticeable.

 

[begreen]

You might also want to looks at cast iron clad steel steel stoves. They have the mass built in their cast iron jackets, but have steel stove performance. Have you checked out the Quad Yosemite, Jotul F45 and Pacific Energy Alderlea T4 yet?

 

[Catia]

I have looked at some Jotuls, but the rest I am not interested in.

I have a footprint I am working within, & that rules out a LOT.

I have spent more than a year looking at my options, & specs & installation requirements.
So I'm pretty narrowed down now to what I want.

Previous to the new EPA stuff in February 2015, my researched list included:

Hobbit SE by Salamander
Navigator Stoveworks--Little Cod & Sardine
Morso 1410 Squirrel
Jotul 602b

All but the hobbit are on the EPA list.

The hobbit is sold in the USA currently, by only 1 distributor. Market is mostly the tiny house community.
It has DEFRA approval for smoke control areas(across the pond). Defra requirements appear to be tighter than EPA, but I am not positive of this.
I am unclear what that equates to as far as what's legal to install with all of the new EPA Feb '2015 language...
It has everything I wanted & options I can purchase later also.

The Jotul 602b is slightly larger foot print than what I want.

The navigator Little Cod is way cute, light weight for a cast stove & puts out good btu's & is also made for cooking,
but costs more than the Morso...both upfront & in installation because 4" stainless is required, & the wait for one is 6-9 months.

The Hearthstone Tribute was outside of my initial footprint, but I really liked the way it looked & the price wasn't bad.
I was not looking specifically for a full soapstone stove to be clear.

So far, way ahead of the game consistently is the Morso 1410, it has almost everything I want & close to the size I want it to be. It is similar looking to the Hobbit, & has twice the burn time. It is also twice as heavy LOL.

On another note: regarding my questions about how adding a 1.5 inch soapstone slab might affect the inner-workings of a stove--Kuma has the optional soapstone top for their Classic model.
A review of their product manual specifically states that if you choose the optional soapstone top, you MUST add an additional R value of .06 to all of the hearth protection requirements when choosing this accessory.

So--something does change by adding soapstone--at least with the Kuma--enough that additional hearth protection is required to bring it to specs... Interesting...