The calculator is off by $977 for the cost of my pellet generated btu's. How do you reconcile that?
Pellet Prices
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Yep, we seem to be adding more heat than light to the subject On the other hand, these discussions do make us think, and that's not all bad.
In the home we just sold I used electric heat until I figured out it was costing an arm and a leg for my particular situation; Went to pellets because wood wasn't a viable option at the time, would seriously consider natural gas if the service was available(for a number of the reasons Craig has already brought up), but probably would stick with pellets as it's hard to walk away from the $2500 original investment (stove and hearth install) after just 6 years.
As for service, I found an excellent independent service person and spent about $100 every year for cleaning etc. Still, I loved the look of the fire and flames - and could pretend I was putting in "small splits" ;-)
In the home we just sold I used electric heat until I figured out it was costing an arm and a leg for my particular situation; Went to pellets because wood wasn't a viable option at the time, would seriously consider natural gas if the service was available(for a number of the reasons Craig has already brought up), but probably would stick with pellets as it's hard to walk away from the $2500 original investment (stove and hearth install) after just 6 years.
As for service, I found an excellent independent service person and spent about $100 every year for cleaning etc. Still, I loved the look of the fire and flames - and could pretend I was putting in "small splits" ;-)
PutnamJct said:
You don't!
You are comparing apples and oranges. If you want to check the stats, just put an LP stove (or NG or FUEL oil) in the same place that your pellet stove is, and then you can compare. But as it is, comparing an unknown (your exact central heating system, it's delivery method, etc.) cannot be done.
As far as anti-pellet, I would not have to insist on reality so often if the pellet "industry" did not have the past record of overselling the product. This happened big time in the first pellet phase, and the stoves stopped selling once the public and the dealers had negative experiences. Now we have the second pellet boom - and I would much rather it not be based on the same overselling as the first. There are enough good things about biomass, pellets, corn and such that the only reason to exaggerate is if one really fears that the stuff would not sell on it's own merit. If that makes me anti-pellet (a new term), so be it!
I'm also a bit pissed at the pellet manufacturers for not being smart about consistent pricing - in other words, getting every cent they can get. While that is perfect and legal capitalism, I feel it hurts the industry in the short and long term. My opinion only, of course. Fuel oil and gas are popular partially because of reliability of supply and consistency of pricing. I hope biomass can follow this trend as opposed to shooting themselves in the foot. As Eric has told us, there is lots of competition for that sawdust!
I won't even repeat all the tales from the first pellet boom, but one was that the price of pellets would continue to fall and fall as the years went by!
BTW, I am ANTI-VENT FREE. At least as far as any serious use of them in modern homes! This, too, was a very unpopular stance, and one large company (Heat n' Glow, etc.) also was against them. Turned out they were right - and although this product category still exists, very few folks would consider them for serious heating. But it was blasphemy at the time to come out against them! Whenever you take $$$ out of someones pocket, even folks who were polluting people in their own houses, it does not win you popularity contests.
Webmaster said:
This is a pointless debate. Some people (including myself) save money and keep the heat in the parts of the house that we need it by using pellets. That is the bottom line.
I'm sure we could save even more if we had a supply of firewood and the time and or inclination to do what needs to be done to keep warm with a wood stove.
The pellet industry may very well shoot itself in the foot with the fluctuating prices and supplies, I do not claim to speak for them nor do I think they are doing the greatest job in the world on either front.
Unless you have identical houses right next to each other with exact specs and each heated with a different fuel you will never be able to say with 100% certainty what is the "best".
John
I have heated with oil, wood, NG and pellets. I'll be the first to admit, when GVA approached me about heating with pellets...I freaked out on him! As a few of you know, I used wood for a few years and didn't want to be bothered with it anymore....the mess, the work, the inconsistency of the heat (either hot or cold). However, after researching....I reluctantly agreed to the stove. I really don't care about the BTUs...I care about whether I am warm and toasty. In 2003 our annual NG bill was $1,875 per year....we were cold in the winter. I would stand on the vents when the heat would kick on for a burst of warmth! Now....worse case scenerio.....lets just say, for the fun of it, we use 4 tons of pellets at $250.00 per ton. Keep in mind, our house is between 78-80 degrees.... that is $1000 per year. Maybe we are "wasting" BTUs, but I know I at least feel like we are saving money...we feel warmer....heck, I'm sitting in my livingroom right now in an T-Shirt.....and that extra money....helped pay for our trip to Aruba! :coolsmile:
I would never go back to NG, oil, or wood....I'm very happy with the pellet stoves, but that is personal preference.
I would never go back to NG, oil, or wood....I'm very happy with the pellet stoves, but that is personal preference.
OK I think I found a slight problem here or another topic perhaps...
On the calculator what do you base the yearly heating costs on.
Yeah I know everyones results will vary..
But I ran the eff at 80% for all and I got the following result.
per year usage would be
oil...............870 gallons
hardwood....4.75 cords
softwood.....7.36 cords
pellets........7.36 tons
NG.............1,187 therms
Just wondering how everyones #s fall in line with these..... I'll admit I'm about 4 Ton a year (once it was 4.5) not 7.36
now mind you that also the avg wood burner doesn't use the wood stove when temps are over a certain temp because of the poor draft.
We could all have a pi$$ing contest over this subject again and again, maybe the answer would be to have a new calculator made (for all sites) that is interactive.
What is your heat source that you currently use etc. etc. etc.
no offense I have never seen a fuel cost comparison calculator on any site that says we are comparing zone heater to zone heater or central sytem to zone heater....... just fuel to fuel
and as I elluded to in a previous post, a wood stove (zone heater) I'm sure uses less wood than a wood furnace....
That is all Carry on...................
On the calculator what do you base the yearly heating costs on.
Yeah I know everyones results will vary..
But I ran the eff at 80% for all and I got the following result.
per year usage would be
oil...............870 gallons
hardwood....4.75 cords
softwood.....7.36 cords
pellets........7.36 tons
NG.............1,187 therms
Just wondering how everyones #s fall in line with these..... I'll admit I'm about 4 Ton a year (once it was 4.5) not 7.36
now mind you that also the avg wood burner doesn't use the wood stove when temps are over a certain temp because of the poor draft.
We could all have a pi$$ing contest over this subject again and again, maybe the answer would be to have a new calculator made (for all sites) that is interactive.
What is your heat source that you currently use etc. etc. etc.
no offense I have never seen a fuel cost comparison calculator on any site that says we are comparing zone heater to zone heater or central sytem to zone heater....... just fuel to fuel
and as I elluded to in a previous post, a wood stove (zone heater) I'm sure uses less wood than a wood furnace....
That is all Carry on...................
OK OK OK.....
Anwser me this
If you had two trains, one train with 8 cars, each car was packed with 79 tons of pellets with each ton on pellets costing $211.00 leaves Boston at 7:32 AM east coast time on a Tuesday and traveled west starting out at a speed of 27 miles an hour and speeding up every hour by one mile per hour per every 50,000,000 btus this train is carring, and the other train leaves Denver at 9:48 pm mt. time the day before with 12 tanker cars each filled with 10,200 gallons of LP. and one car with 6534 gallons of LP. with each gallon of LP costing $1.29 traveling east at 78 miles an hour which train will get to Cleveland Ohio first???
I'd like to see how your Fuel calculator handles this one.
Anwser me this
If you had two trains, one train with 8 cars, each car was packed with 79 tons of pellets with each ton on pellets costing $211.00 leaves Boston at 7:32 AM east coast time on a Tuesday and traveled west starting out at a speed of 27 miles an hour and speeding up every hour by one mile per hour per every 50,000,000 btus this train is carring, and the other train leaves Denver at 9:48 pm mt. time the day before with 12 tanker cars each filled with 10,200 gallons of LP. and one car with 6534 gallons of LP. with each gallon of LP costing $1.29 traveling east at 78 miles an hour which train will get to Cleveland Ohio first???
I'd like to see how your Fuel calculator handles this one.
The calculator compares apple to apples and the yearly figures are just relative to each other. Again, apples to apples if you heated the same house with the same central heating system or same location freestanding stove.
In other words, they are calculated using the BTU content of various fuels. Is there any other way?
I can see where the calc page need to have some more comments and warnings on it, such as mentioning the above - and that there are many other factors such as space heating/central heating - shutting off rooms, etc.
But those factors, as I mentioned before, apply to any fuel just the same.
The yearly figure was given as an average insulated house in the mid-atlantic or southern new england.....for the entire winter heat load. 870 gallons of oil is a very realistic number for a house in your location. Some use 1/2 of that and some use 4X that, of course.
I guess the thing we need to understand is that this is a FUEL price calculator, not a "space heat vs. central heat" nor a "close off some rooms and conserve" nor a "I like walking around naked with my pellet stove on" calculator. It would admittedly be impossible for me place a calculation on all this stuff - I'd have to add "I get more loving when we sit around the stove" as an option, and then calculate the value of THAT - which, as we know from history, is ALL the GOLD in the world.
In other words, they are calculated using the BTU content of various fuels. Is there any other way?
I can see where the calc page need to have some more comments and warnings on it, such as mentioning the above - and that there are many other factors such as space heating/central heating - shutting off rooms, etc.
But those factors, as I mentioned before, apply to any fuel just the same.
The yearly figure was given as an average insulated house in the mid-atlantic or southern new england.....for the entire winter heat load. 870 gallons of oil is a very realistic number for a house in your location. Some use 1/2 of that and some use 4X that, of course.
I guess the thing we need to understand is that this is a FUEL price calculator, not a "space heat vs. central heat" nor a "close off some rooms and conserve" nor a "I like walking around naked with my pellet stove on" calculator. It would admittedly be impossible for me place a calculation on all this stuff - I'd have to add "I get more loving when we sit around the stove" as an option, and then calculate the value of THAT - which, as we know from history, is ALL the GOLD in the world.
What are the fuels that the trains are using?Choppedliver said:
Wood? coal? or diesel? :lol: ;-P :lol:
Kenny said:
What about sticking it people who don't seem to like us anyways. Time to shut off the spigot.
???????????????????????????????
I'm having a tough time understanding that....
Whose spigot, who don't like us??????????????
I'm having a tough time understanding that....
Whose spigot, who don't like us??????????????
GVA said:
Sorry I did leave out a few details the Train from Boston is a diesel and the operator is high on meth thats why the train keeps speeding up, the Denver train is a new wood/electric hybrid model
/////(Reserved For Future explanation)//// lol
Update:
"...Only in America..."
Being an eccentric billionaire...
Cost to own your own railroad...$26,000,000.00...20 year old paint found in the back of the warehouse $0.00....Upset the operating union and have to "Buy" a "new name" same as being rich enough to have a "real monopoly railroad in the first place"...priceless.
http://naphotos.nerail.org/showpic/....jpg&order=byrail&page=11&key=Pan Am Railways
You thought the electric/hybrid train was funny? Check out the link above (it's real folks...no 'photo shop' work). Who said 'Pan Am' got "written off into the history books in 1991".
"...The pellet express for Cleaveland now boarding for take-off on Track Two..."
Update:
"...Only in America..."
Being an eccentric billionaire...
Cost to own your own railroad...$26,000,000.00...20 year old paint found in the back of the warehouse $0.00....Upset the operating union and have to "Buy" a "new name" same as being rich enough to have a "real monopoly railroad in the first place"...priceless.
http://naphotos.nerail.org/showpic/....jpg&order=byrail&page=11&key=Pan Am Railways
You thought the electric/hybrid train was funny? Check out the link above (it's real folks...no 'photo shop' work). Who said 'Pan Am' got "written off into the history books in 1991".
"...The pellet express for Cleaveland now boarding for take-off on Track Two..."
The Denver train arrives in Cleaveland first...Mrs-GVA said:
(You don't even want to hear the "why" part...lol)
"UPS Wants to race the truck...Pan Am wants to fly the train"...ROFLMAO
The real question is why does a bag of pellets costs the same regardless that one bag comes from a mill 100km away and the other bag comes from the other side of the country?
Hammerjoe said:
Because the public will pay. I don't buy the local pellet because it is poor quality compared to the better brands, but that doesn't stop the uneducated from saving $.50 per bag and buying the cheaper product, even though I can buy it for half at the plant. If you think that the price you pay for anything reflect the actual cost, that is very naieve.
Hammerjoe said:
The same reason a gallon of gas made from crude oil that came from Alaska or Iraq costs the same...
Because the "Organization" wants it that way.
OH, I get it....... Then again, Chavez likes us very well, so do the Mexicans and Canadians....some of them might not like our Government, but never confuse our government with US.
I remember those ads in 1979 that asked who you would rather buy fuel from...
one pic was a neighborhood firewood young man
the other pic, of course, was a Sheik!
Of course, people forgot about that as soon as the Sheiks price was 1/2 the price of the firewoods guys price.
Then again, remember in the global marketplace that foreign companies can buy and own our pellet and lumber mills, etc.
All in all, it is tough to weigh the vendors each time we buy something...but the fact that pellets are grown and almost instantly renewable....now that is an advantage even if Chavez buys all the pellet mills.
I remember those ads in 1979 that asked who you would rather buy fuel from...
one pic was a neighborhood firewood young man
the other pic, of course, was a Sheik!
Of course, people forgot about that as soon as the Sheiks price was 1/2 the price of the firewoods guys price.
Then again, remember in the global marketplace that foreign companies can buy and own our pellet and lumber mills, etc.
All in all, it is tough to weigh the vendors each time we buy something...but the fact that pellets are grown and almost instantly renewable....now that is an advantage even if Chavez buys all the pellet mills.
At one point there was a rumor the Mobil Exxon was going to venture into the pellet market. I guess they looked at it and figured there were not enough profits to be made
I wonder why we subsidise the oil companies when it would make sense to include the pellet industry Lot a talk about renewable feul but never for pellets..
One can add Bio logs/bricks to the mix
Is seems anything around $200 per ton make some econimic sense, venturing above $200 looses cost appeal The same goes with the cost of a cord of wood
I wonder why we subsidise the oil companies when it would make sense to include the pellet industry Lot a talk about renewable feul but never for pellets..
One can add Bio logs/bricks to the mix
Is seems anything around $200 per ton make some econimic sense, venturing above $200 looses cost appeal The same goes with the cost of a cord of wood
The economic part of the market is really weird and could probably use some studying and polling.
I think of it this way - wood and/or pellet and coal will probably never (meaning within 50 years) be any serious part of our nations residential heating needs, but that does not mean it is not one of MANY ways to skin the cat. Truth be told, having tens of millions of woodstoves running full time would give the Burning Issues people some ammunition, because the residential burning of wood is nowhere near as clean as Natural Gas, LP or even a decent oil burner....
So it is an up and down market, and a lot of us who do it (as evidenced by this forum) have a LOT more reasons than just saving money! Also, as a part of the energy supply it works well (local, etc.) but as a large component of it, it would not work nearly as well.
Wood and pellet burning will always be a niche, but the niche can still double or triple and, if nothing else, provide an example of what people can do when they take responsibility for some of their energy needs. LEADERS, all of you......
I think of it this way - wood and/or pellet and coal will probably never (meaning within 50 years) be any serious part of our nations residential heating needs, but that does not mean it is not one of MANY ways to skin the cat. Truth be told, having tens of millions of woodstoves running full time would give the Burning Issues people some ammunition, because the residential burning of wood is nowhere near as clean as Natural Gas, LP or even a decent oil burner....
So it is an up and down market, and a lot of us who do it (as evidenced by this forum) have a LOT more reasons than just saving money! Also, as a part of the energy supply it works well (local, etc.) but as a large component of it, it would not work nearly as well.
Wood and pellet burning will always be a niche, but the niche can still double or triple and, if nothing else, provide an example of what people can do when they take responsibility for some of their energy needs. LEADERS, all of you......
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