Mack The Knife said:
Not the full line, but expect some additions in the spring.
Of course, the Froling products are priced like, well, Froling products...
Joe
Pellet Boilers.... Where are you????
- Thread starter Mack The Knife
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Not the full line, but expect some additions in the spring.
Of course, the Froling products are priced like, well, Froling products...
Joe
Where are the other Maine Energy Systems Bosch Janfire owners posts? Freefromoil is here, but there have been no other posts. I've heard some of the challenges that others have dealt with through some conversations with other installers.
Our 4-Section Bosch Janfire unit was installed on November 18th. The 5/6-month wait was full of excitement and anticipation. The process of making the decision to purchase the Maine Energy System, to waiting for delivery and then getting the installation completed had its highs and lows. A lot could be learned. Our installers came with a great attitude and we all knew there was a learning curve ahead of us. The system required some tweaking adjustments to maximize the heat output etc. We were taken back by some of the installations quotes we received and even questioned our decision when oil prices plummeted. In an earlier posting I stated that I had turned down a Tarm 4.0 installation for $12,500.00. Cost of adding heat storage (very high) and no large bin took the Tarm off my list. In reality, everyone has to make a decision with what works within their budget. The Maine Energy System offered some options (the features) that we put more of a priority on. The features that we coveted were to have in indoor system that also had a large bin for weeks of sustainable heat instead of just a hopper for heating a few days to a week. At the time, Harman was the only other system to offer a large ton capacity bin. In some ways, I regret that I passed on a great season-ending price for the Harman last May. Posts within this forum regarding lack of support from Harman chased me away. In retrospect, the Harman's ash pan may have been the easiest to facilitate emptying. The MES system has no ash pan and ash removal must be accomplished more often than the "marketing/selling claims". Removing the ash from the MES system is easy enough to do, but should probably be accomplished every ton of pellets burned.
We have a 50+ gallon hot water storage tank and a 4 ton pellet bin alongside. Because we ordered 8 tons of pellets last May/June we have not had to use the bulk deliver feature. Pellet prices are too high right now
In about an hours time my wife and I moved a ton from the driveway to being stacked and stored in our basement - really simple. Not a lot of fun, but it really wasn’t very hard or laborous. We used a slide to shoot the bags down to the basement. If given the choice between lugging 40 pound bags of pellets or cutting/splitting/stacking mega cords of wood, we made the right choice to go with pellets. There are now other pellet boiler systems available: Woodpecker, Pellergy, Froling, and the few that we had to select from: Tarm, Pinnacle/Traeger, Harman, Orlan, and MaineEnergySystems. If I omitted a unit - sorry.
A key point to mention is that our 4-Section Bosch Janfire is actually "undersized" for our home. Once the system was tweaked to maximize output, I assure you that during the week or two of sub-zero and sub-freezing temperatures the unit kept the house plenty warm. Our oil boiler was very old, so we have no backup support, but didn’t need it. See Dutch Dresser’s blog link at the top of the MES homepage speaks to having his oil burner kicking on for backup during some of the coldest days of this season. We've experienced some of the same issues (Ash Scrape and a blown fuse). Get a package of fuses with installation.
THE ONE issue that really caused us frustration was the system kept shutting down when the water pump kicked on. It took "WEEKS" to troubleshoot because it didn't happen all the time. When we lost power during the ice storm, I was able to isolate it because we were on a generator. The well pump and pellet boiler cannot be on the same side of the circuit panel. The extra power draw when the water pump kicked on caused the unit to fault and shutdown.
More could be done to support the installer/customer by communicating "lessons learned" on the MES website.
Below is Freefromoil's response.
In mid-November we had a professional install Janfire/Bosch 6-section boiler. We live in Central Maine and had a qualified MES installer who has been awesome. If we hadn’t had a dedicated pro who was willing to work really hard to perfect the install and settings we would have been sadly disappointed with this system. It is our single source of heat as we tossed the leaky old oil boiler to the curb. We have had a few bumps here and there, but have been satisfied with the performance.
This is our experience so far:
5 tons burned since Nov. 15 in a 2500 sq foot drafty farmhouse.
3 pellet deliveries at 2.75t each. I would estimate our bin holds 3-3.5 tons they had to cut it down to fit our ceiling height.
60 gallon hot water storage Top Performer indirect set to 135 dgrs= nice warm showers
Weekly ash cleanings (don’t believe the once per season cleaning on MES site)
Nice warm house (we even left the house untended for 4 days at Christmas without problem<risky thing to do, but nothing shut off)
Problems:
Constant Ash Scrape error from Janfire NH burner (solution: reduce amount of time b/w ash scrape and clean slag on burner we found a tiny piece of copper lodged under ash scraper left by install and were able to remove it)
Overtemp shut down (boiler and burner have seperate temp controls and the boiler overheat at 240 degrees cause system shutdown / we were able to prevent this by reducing the janfire burner settings so the burner would not overshoot the 180 degree mark needed/ burner setting low 140 high 165/
Blown fuse (keep a few extra fast blow fuses handy in case needed as the heating coil inside burner can cause blown fuse at start up, we have reduced the stress on this by increasing burner standby time to 30 minutes so that a tiny flame will stay lit between calls for zone heat to avoid inefficient short cycling of burner)
After working out these few kinks things have been running smoothly.
Ten things you should now before install:
1 This is not maintenance free system
2 Someone should be home daily to ensure warm house
3 Your basement will lose a lot of space
4 Plan week ahead for fuel delivery
5 Keep some extra bagged pellets (just in case)
6 Much better than filling a wood stove
7 Same price as oil
8 Your home will be heated with a carbon neutral renewable resource
9 Awesome for the local economy
10 You can laugh when you see the oil truck go by that cost you 4500 dollars last year
Our 4-Section Bosch Janfire unit was installed on November 18th. The 5/6-month wait was full of excitement and anticipation. The process of making the decision to purchase the Maine Energy System, to waiting for delivery and then getting the installation completed had its highs and lows. A lot could be learned. Our installers came with a great attitude and we all knew there was a learning curve ahead of us. The system required some tweaking adjustments to maximize the heat output etc. We were taken back by some of the installations quotes we received and even questioned our decision when oil prices plummeted. In an earlier posting I stated that I had turned down a Tarm 4.0 installation for $12,500.00. Cost of adding heat storage (very high) and no large bin took the Tarm off my list. In reality, everyone has to make a decision with what works within their budget. The Maine Energy System offered some options (the features) that we put more of a priority on. The features that we coveted were to have in indoor system that also had a large bin for weeks of sustainable heat instead of just a hopper for heating a few days to a week. At the time, Harman was the only other system to offer a large ton capacity bin. In some ways, I regret that I passed on a great season-ending price for the Harman last May. Posts within this forum regarding lack of support from Harman chased me away. In retrospect, the Harman's ash pan may have been the easiest to facilitate emptying. The MES system has no ash pan and ash removal must be accomplished more often than the "marketing/selling claims". Removing the ash from the MES system is easy enough to do, but should probably be accomplished every ton of pellets burned.
We have a 50+ gallon hot water storage tank and a 4 ton pellet bin alongside. Because we ordered 8 tons of pellets last May/June we have not had to use the bulk deliver feature. Pellet prices are too high right now
In about an hours time my wife and I moved a ton from the driveway to being stacked and stored in our basement - really simple. Not a lot of fun, but it really wasn’t very hard or laborous. We used a slide to shoot the bags down to the basement. If given the choice between lugging 40 pound bags of pellets or cutting/splitting/stacking mega cords of wood, we made the right choice to go with pellets. There are now other pellet boiler systems available: Woodpecker, Pellergy, Froling, and the few that we had to select from: Tarm, Pinnacle/Traeger, Harman, Orlan, and MaineEnergySystems. If I omitted a unit - sorry. A key point to mention is that our 4-Section Bosch Janfire is actually "undersized" for our home. Once the system was tweaked to maximize output, I assure you that during the week or two of sub-zero and sub-freezing temperatures the unit kept the house plenty warm. Our oil boiler was very old, so we have no backup support, but didn’t need it. See Dutch Dresser’s blog link at the top of the MES homepage speaks to having his oil burner kicking on for backup during some of the coldest days of this season. We've experienced some of the same issues (Ash Scrape and a blown fuse). Get a package of fuses with installation.
THE ONE issue that really caused us frustration was the system kept shutting down when the water pump kicked on. It took "WEEKS" to troubleshoot because it didn't happen all the time. When we lost power during the ice storm, I was able to isolate it because we were on a generator. The well pump and pellet boiler cannot be on the same side of the circuit panel. The extra power draw when the water pump kicked on caused the unit to fault and shutdown.
More could be done to support the installer/customer by communicating "lessons learned" on the MES website.
Below is Freefromoil's response.
In mid-November we had a professional install Janfire/Bosch 6-section boiler. We live in Central Maine and had a qualified MES installer who has been awesome. If we hadn’t had a dedicated pro who was willing to work really hard to perfect the install and settings we would have been sadly disappointed with this system. It is our single source of heat as we tossed the leaky old oil boiler to the curb. We have had a few bumps here and there, but have been satisfied with the performance.
This is our experience so far:
5 tons burned since Nov. 15 in a 2500 sq foot drafty farmhouse.
3 pellet deliveries at 2.75t each. I would estimate our bin holds 3-3.5 tons they had to cut it down to fit our ceiling height.
60 gallon hot water storage Top Performer indirect set to 135 dgrs= nice warm showers
Weekly ash cleanings (don’t believe the once per season cleaning on MES site)
Nice warm house (we even left the house untended for 4 days at Christmas without problem<risky thing to do, but nothing shut off)
Problems:
Constant Ash Scrape error from Janfire NH burner (solution: reduce amount of time b/w ash scrape and clean slag on burner we found a tiny piece of copper lodged under ash scraper left by install and were able to remove it)
Overtemp shut down (boiler and burner have seperate temp controls and the boiler overheat at 240 degrees cause system shutdown / we were able to prevent this by reducing the janfire burner settings so the burner would not overshoot the 180 degree mark needed/ burner setting low 140 high 165/
Blown fuse (keep a few extra fast blow fuses handy in case needed as the heating coil inside burner can cause blown fuse at start up, we have reduced the stress on this by increasing burner standby time to 30 minutes so that a tiny flame will stay lit between calls for zone heat to avoid inefficient short cycling of burner)
After working out these few kinks things have been running smoothly.
Ten things you should now before install:
1 This is not maintenance free system
2 Someone should be home daily to ensure warm house
3 Your basement will lose a lot of space
4 Plan week ahead for fuel delivery
5 Keep some extra bagged pellets (just in case)
6 Much better than filling a wood stove
7 Same price as oil
8 Your home will be heated with a carbon neutral renewable resource
9 Awesome for the local economy
10 You can laugh when you see the oil truck go by that cost you 4500 dollars last year
point 7 = Same price as oil
point 10 = you laugh at the oil man when he drives by
Yet your claim:
it costs you as much to burn pellets
you now have far less room in the basement
you have far more work to facilitate burning pellets vs oil
and you have a huge cash investment in equipment vs if had you installed a modern oil fuel heating appliance and zoned you house for comfort.
Who are you kidding?
point 10 = you laugh at the oil man when he drives by
Yet your claim:
it costs you as much to burn pellets
you now have far less room in the basement
you have far more work to facilitate burning pellets vs oil
and you have a huge cash investment in equipment vs if had you installed a modern oil fuel heating appliance and zoned you house for comfort.
Who are you kidding?
I'll have to let Freefromoil speak to his 10 points.
It sounds like his family chose to move to a pellet boiler because his "old leaky" oil burner wasn't performing well anymore.
We were faced with the same issue, a 30 year old oil boiler that needed replacing. Do I have regrets... sometimes, especially when oil prices plummeted after having rocketed all summer. I second guessed myself many times and thought to stay on oil. Our price of pellets (delivered) per btu was equal to what I paid for oil two years ago. Why are wood pellets suddenly so expensive?? Although the installed price of the Maine Energy System unit was a little higher than some of the systems I reviewed, it was lower than the anticipated price of the Froling unit that also caught my eye but not available until later this year. I tried to do as much research and homework as possible to educate myself. I don't think that I made an error. I was within a few $$$$ of other system quotes. Unfortunately GREED is rampant in the USA.
If the vast population of the USA could move off of oil and use alternatives at about the same price......should/would they? Aside from going to personal use solar or wind, which new alternative won't utility companies control? Ten years ago I watched NG pipelines being built within a mile of my old home in Maine that were to bring the fuel down from Canada to lower the costs in New England. It didn't. So what commodity out there won't go up in price in the next 10 -20 years?
My hope is that this system that we've chosen to install has a good as a history as it does in Europe. Our basement space is not lost, it is used to suplement our families heating needs. I guess we could use it to collect a bunch of junk instead.
This is and will continue to be a learning process. I bet this unit outlasts anything Detroit produces and we'll get more mileage out of it too.
Progress continues.....
It sounds like his family chose to move to a pellet boiler because his "old leaky" oil burner wasn't performing well anymore.
We were faced with the same issue, a 30 year old oil boiler that needed replacing. Do I have regrets... sometimes, especially when oil prices plummeted after having rocketed all summer. I second guessed myself many times and thought to stay on oil. Our price of pellets (delivered) per btu was equal to what I paid for oil two years ago. Why are wood pellets suddenly so expensive?? Although the installed price of the Maine Energy System unit was a little higher than some of the systems I reviewed, it was lower than the anticipated price of the Froling unit that also caught my eye but not available until later this year. I tried to do as much research and homework as possible to educate myself. I don't think that I made an error. I was within a few $$$$ of other system quotes. Unfortunately GREED is rampant in the USA.
If the vast population of the USA could move off of oil and use alternatives at about the same price......should/would they? Aside from going to personal use solar or wind, which new alternative won't utility companies control? Ten years ago I watched NG pipelines being built within a mile of my old home in Maine that were to bring the fuel down from Canada to lower the costs in New England. It didn't. So what commodity out there won't go up in price in the next 10 -20 years?
My hope is that this system that we've chosen to install has a good as a history as it does in Europe. Our basement space is not lost, it is used to suplement our families heating needs. I guess we could use it to collect a bunch of junk instead.
This is and will continue to be a learning process. I bet this unit outlasts anything Detroit produces and we'll get more mileage out of it too.
Progress continues.....
hi everybody. i just joined this forum to tell you NOT TO BUY A HARMON PELLET BOILER PB105. i have had the machine in my house for 2.5 months, and it yet to work problem free. the unit arrived with a bad exhaust thermocouple that delayed the startup. it also came with the wrong pellet delivery slider plate. both these problems caused me time AND money to fix. DID YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAD TO SHUT IT DOWN TO DO WEEKLY MAINTENANCE? right now, i the machine is sitting idle because the status light says there is something wrong, but all the items mentioned in the manual are working fine. i just sent a message to HARMON that they dont have to worry about my status 6 shutting down the system, because I NOW GET A STATUS 5 - WHICH SAYS THE AUTO IGNITER WONT EVEN START THE SYSTEM!! i am in the process of telling HARMON to take the damn thing back.
TO LATE, I have owned one for over a year now. The items that you mention that were faulty from day one are warranty items, why did you pay for them to be replaced??? It's no big secret, pellet burning stoves or boilers do require cleaning ( weekly maintenance), they all require shutting down to do so, were you told differently??? Status light 5 is probably the igniter, have you removed the plate on the front of the burnpot to clean this area, this is where the igniter is located?? The issues that you have had should have been corrected by your dealer. Did you contact the dealer?? A word of caution, it is the owners responsibility to clean the unit, not the dealer. If you have a failure, the cause from not cleaning, you pay for the servive call. Did your dealer show you the procedure for weekly maintenance (cleaning)???hblacey said:
I'm not a Harman dealer, I have learned a few things that my dealer was not even aware of on the PB105, still learning.
What a shame.
The pellet boiler technology is new to this country and the industry is just starting/hoping to get its feet firmly planted, although they may not last long. People want to learn about it and support it, but manufacturers, distributors, and installers need to be forthcoming and honest with the information about it. The consumer shouldn't have to rely on a post on Hearth.com to warn them about products. There are so many new installers out there, some are even designated/required to be "certified". There is a definate learning curve for the installers and consumers to this technology. The pellet boiler is not a pellet stove. In what seems to have been too many cases of products not performing properly, the manufacturers and distributors need to step up and be more supportive of the consumer, who is helping them to build their business and spread the word, instead of leaving them to get totally pissed off. I remember trying so hard to educate myself on a half dozen products so that I could make a smart decision for our purchase. Why is everyone involved trying to make the quick/big $$$$ right out of the gate? Greed sucks. Why is any manufacturers unit priced to install over 10K?? A Froeling unit at 20K?? C'mon! When the price of oil (and oil boiler installation) is down who will spend that kind of money to transition over to a pellet boiler system? If my installation were delayed much longer I would have bought a new oil boiler and filled my 600 gallon oil tanks for a lot less than what my MES and 8 tons of pellets cost me. When is my break-even payback now? We needed a new oil boiler, so the opportunity presented itself to make the transition. Six months of worry about where the price of oil was going and the installed cost of a new pellet boiler caused us great concern last year.
Even a relative in the HVAC business suggested that perhaps we should enter the pellet boiler realm on the low end of costs (the Harman unit) to see what & where the pellet boiler industry and what would become the former oil economy would land. Of course the price of oil plummeted as soon as our MES system was installed after a 6-month wait from when the decision was made to go to the pellet boiler technology. The same "greed" thinking holds true for the pellet manufacturers. A ton of pellets raced to over $375.00 per ton. Today it is at $249.00. Where is the ratioanale? Are pellets goignt o be a commodity like oil, or NG? Imagine losing 1/2 ton or more of pellets because the manufacturer didn't protect them from rain well enough when delivered? What is the consumers recourse? Unfortunately the same mentality exists in screwing the consumer so that someone else can make their money and hide behind a LLC designation.
Let's hope the business "standards" used by the pellet and pellet boiler industry and their communication get better.
The pellet boiler technology is new to this country and the industry is just starting/hoping to get its feet firmly planted, although they may not last long. People want to learn about it and support it, but manufacturers, distributors, and installers need to be forthcoming and honest with the information about it. The consumer shouldn't have to rely on a post on Hearth.com to warn them about products. There are so many new installers out there, some are even designated/required to be "certified". There is a definate learning curve for the installers and consumers to this technology. The pellet boiler is not a pellet stove. In what seems to have been too many cases of products not performing properly, the manufacturers and distributors need to step up and be more supportive of the consumer, who is helping them to build their business and spread the word, instead of leaving them to get totally pissed off. I remember trying so hard to educate myself on a half dozen products so that I could make a smart decision for our purchase. Why is everyone involved trying to make the quick/big $$$$ right out of the gate? Greed sucks. Why is any manufacturers unit priced to install over 10K?? A Froeling unit at 20K?? C'mon! When the price of oil (and oil boiler installation) is down who will spend that kind of money to transition over to a pellet boiler system? If my installation were delayed much longer I would have bought a new oil boiler and filled my 600 gallon oil tanks for a lot less than what my MES and 8 tons of pellets cost me. When is my break-even payback now? We needed a new oil boiler, so the opportunity presented itself to make the transition. Six months of worry about where the price of oil was going and the installed cost of a new pellet boiler caused us great concern last year.
Even a relative in the HVAC business suggested that perhaps we should enter the pellet boiler realm on the low end of costs (the Harman unit) to see what & where the pellet boiler industry and what would become the former oil economy would land. Of course the price of oil plummeted as soon as our MES system was installed after a 6-month wait from when the decision was made to go to the pellet boiler technology. The same "greed" thinking holds true for the pellet manufacturers. A ton of pellets raced to over $375.00 per ton. Today it is at $249.00. Where is the ratioanale? Are pellets goignt o be a commodity like oil, or NG? Imagine losing 1/2 ton or more of pellets because the manufacturer didn't protect them from rain well enough when delivered? What is the consumers recourse? Unfortunately the same mentality exists in screwing the consumer so that someone else can make their money and hide behind a LLC designation.
Let's hope the business "standards" used by the pellet and pellet boiler industry and their communication get better.
Sting said:
He hasn't indicated anything about his install, Sting. Hence, I don't know if it is right or wrong. It's entirely possible that his install is done correctly, and given the symptoms that he describes, I have no reason to believe otherwise.
Unlike some individuals, I won't distort the truth for personal gain.
Joe
Hi folks new to this forum. Some here I "know" from the iburncorn.com burning forum. I have an LDJ boiler that burns pellets just fine. Takes a little fiddling with settings, but I have burned both corn and pellets with just a little effort. Being in the Northeast I looked at Tarm, too, and was scared away by the price. The LDJ is UL listed and ASME rated, and runs on pretty simple controls. Dealers are a little scarce in the upper right corner, but you can buy direct if you don't have a dealer. It's been a good unit for me. My two cents' worth....
It is the responsibility of the boiler manufacturer to train their dealer network. There is no excuse for allowing untrained dealers doing marginal installs. There is no excuse for a dealer not educating the prospective buyer about what will be required to operate his biomass burner/boiler. I understand the frustration that I read in some of these messages. These are expensive units and the sales/install/support process (at least from some manufacturers) isn't yet what a reasonable person should expect for a product in this price range.
Before I bought my corn burner I researched this a lot (I thought) and I did know that weekly cleaning was going to be required. Still there was an awful lot the dealer could have told me but didn't, because (I now realize) he didn't know himself to ask. Like "Do you want to use 1.25" PEX lines, which will cost more but is better because.....", or "do you want to use a zone bypass here? It will cost more up front but save you in the long run because....". It would have been nice to know these things at the start.
Another example... 8 months ago I had pretty well picked out the boiler I wanted from the online info. I used the dealer locator, and it came up with "Bens SuperCenter", a local grocery/lumberyard/drugstore. I'm not joking. That's basically like buying your boiler at Walmart. I went there, and tried to ask questions, and found out that I knew more about this particular burner than anyone there. I walked out.
It is slowly getting better. 4 months ago I repeated this process, decided on the same outdoor corn burner, did another dealer search, and this time it came up with a local guy. I called him, and he had actually done a few installs and was heating his own house with the unit for over two years!! Wow!!
Don't get me wrong I'm happy with quality of the boiler. The install works, allthough it's not what you guys would call perfect by any means and I'm slowly improving it. I don't think the dealer purposely shorted me or anything, I just think the manufacturer should be training the dealers correctly.
My .02
Before I bought my corn burner I researched this a lot (I thought) and I did know that weekly cleaning was going to be required. Still there was an awful lot the dealer could have told me but didn't, because (I now realize) he didn't know himself to ask. Like "Do you want to use 1.25" PEX lines, which will cost more but is better because.....", or "do you want to use a zone bypass here? It will cost more up front but save you in the long run because....". It would have been nice to know these things at the start.
Another example... 8 months ago I had pretty well picked out the boiler I wanted from the online info. I used the dealer locator, and it came up with "Bens SuperCenter", a local grocery/lumberyard/drugstore. I'm not joking. That's basically like buying your boiler at Walmart. I went there, and tried to ask questions, and found out that I knew more about this particular burner than anyone there. I walked out.
It is slowly getting better. 4 months ago I repeated this process, decided on the same outdoor corn burner, did another dealer search, and this time it came up with a local guy. I called him, and he had actually done a few installs and was heating his own house with the unit for over two years!! Wow!!
Don't get me wrong I'm happy with quality of the boiler. The install works, allthough it's not what you guys would call perfect by any means and I'm slowly improving it. I don't think the dealer purposely shorted me or anything, I just think the manufacturer should be training the dealers correctly.
My .02
As stated in my last post I'm worried about the commodity driven industry screwing customers.
What recommendations are out there to maximize our boiler installation investments? I was told to insulate my unfinished basement ceiling/first floor to gain another 10% of heat. Does running tubes under the first floor further increase household heat dispersion and efficiency? Does anyone have a cost analysis of such an installation with heat output end use return (if that makes sense)? Maybe I'll add a wind farm in the back yard!!
Thanks!!
What recommendations are out there to maximize our boiler installation investments? I was told to insulate my unfinished basement ceiling/first floor to gain another 10% of heat. Does running tubes under the first floor further increase household heat dispersion and efficiency? Does anyone have a cost analysis of such an installation with heat output end use return (if that makes sense)? Maybe I'll add a wind farm in the back yard!!
Thanks!!
Mack-
You raise a lot of good points. The information regarding best install, investment returns, installation, pumps, pipe size, exchangers, storage, fuels, etc. is probably all in this and similar forums but it's not to my knowledge consolidated into an easy to locate booklet style format. There are Wikis on various pieces, but not one all-encompassing that I know of. Maybe it's just too much, but I think it's just exactly the sort of thing a group effort can accomplish. Maybe I'll start a new public Wiki and let everyone contribute.... no charge, no advertising, just folks helping folks.
Regarding a wind turbine, I just don't like the payback right now. I'm in a class III wind zone (really good!), but it would take ~15 years to break even on a 5KW turbine. Since that's longer than the warranty on the machine, it doesn't make sense to me right now.
You raise a lot of good points. The information regarding best install, investment returns, installation, pumps, pipe size, exchangers, storage, fuels, etc. is probably all in this and similar forums but it's not to my knowledge consolidated into an easy to locate booklet style format. There are Wikis on various pieces, but not one all-encompassing that I know of. Maybe it's just too much, but I think it's just exactly the sort of thing a group effort can accomplish. Maybe I'll start a new public Wiki and let everyone contribute.... no charge, no advertising, just folks helping folks.
Regarding a wind turbine, I just don't like the payback right now. I'm in a class III wind zone (really good!), but it would take ~15 years to break even on a 5KW turbine. Since that's longer than the warranty on the machine, it doesn't make sense to me right now.
I installed a Harman PB105 last Fall. I had looked at the Tarm boilers. Nice units and the folks that
sell and service them are really good people. There was no way I could justify their price, though.
My only experience with pellet burners and Harman was that I had purchased a P-61 in '05 to heat
my basement. I loved it and had no problems with it whatsoever. Based on that, I bought a PB105
to heat the entire house. There are some things I like about it, and other things I'm less than thrilled
about.
What I like:
This thing is so quiet, as compared to an oil furnace. Where we use the cellar so much for hobby and
office space, it's great to have a quiet boiler.
The design is great and cleaning it takes a matter of less than 20 minutes, including cleaning the probe
and stovepipe.
What I didn't care for:
1. The initial dip switch settings were wrong and start-up would fail for a lack of pellets in the burn pot.
A call to my local dealership took care of that. They gave me the correct settings. (Not in the manual!)
2. In five months, I have gone through two igniters. They just go "open" and don't work. I'm hoping
the next one will last longer.
3. Lighting it manually gets old fast.... The P-61 isn't so bad because the burn pot is head-on and very
accessible. Not so with the PB-105.
4. The manual recommends cleaning the mouth of the burn pot whenever pellets are added. This isn't
practical, given the aforementioned orientation of the PB-105 burn pot.
All in all, I'm happy with it. I'm confident that the next igniter will be more robust. I can live with the
cleaning requirements. It heated our home comfortably and quietly.
Best regards,
Mike
sell and service them are really good people. There was no way I could justify their price, though.
My only experience with pellet burners and Harman was that I had purchased a P-61 in '05 to heat
my basement. I loved it and had no problems with it whatsoever. Based on that, I bought a PB105
to heat the entire house. There are some things I like about it, and other things I'm less than thrilled
about.
What I like:
This thing is so quiet, as compared to an oil furnace. Where we use the cellar so much for hobby and
office space, it's great to have a quiet boiler.
The design is great and cleaning it takes a matter of less than 20 minutes, including cleaning the probe
and stovepipe.
What I didn't care for:
1. The initial dip switch settings were wrong and start-up would fail for a lack of pellets in the burn pot.
A call to my local dealership took care of that. They gave me the correct settings. (Not in the manual!)
2. In five months, I have gone through two igniters. They just go "open" and don't work. I'm hoping
the next one will last longer.
3. Lighting it manually gets old fast.... The P-61 isn't so bad because the burn pot is head-on and very
accessible. Not so with the PB-105.
4. The manual recommends cleaning the mouth of the burn pot whenever pellets are added. This isn't
practical, given the aforementioned orientation of the PB-105 burn pot.
All in all, I'm happy with it. I'm confident that the next igniter will be more robust. I can live with the
cleaning requirements. It heated our home comfortably and quietly.
Best regards,
Mike
Hi all,
brand new to this forum, because as most new people looking for info on pellet heat, but in particular a pellet boiler.
First I wish to thank Mack the knife in particular for posting so much of his research, and then everyone elso who helped with responses.
As mentioned Im looking to purchase a pellet boiler for a new house that I will be building new spring, so I have some time to do some research, but as Im not an impulse buyer Im trying to get all my ducks in a row.
The area we are building has no gas, so the only other options are propane, oil or geothermal. I love the idea of geo, but with a 35K minimum up front its a little scary.
My parameters are heated water for radiant floors and DHW. Im planning on doing some type of solar thermal as a preheat to the very cold welll water that comes in.
Ive decided I dont want a unit that has to be manual lit, and those types usually have a minimum constant burn. Something that has some sort of minimal auto cleaning so you are not cleaning the pot every night, and some sort of decent hopper for more than 2 days burn time.
Some of the ones Ive done some reading into are the Froling, the Traeger, the Janfire.
As some here have these unit, and from the dates of postings , had these for at least one full season, Im very must interested in your feedback.
Also anyone with other boiler units that have had good experience, please let all of us know.
There maybe other lurkers out there reading this thread who also could benefit.
Finally, one interesting unit I fount on a site is the Ja-ran multi fuel biomass boiler. Anyone know of this unit.
Thanks again to all with your postings and help,
Regards,
Ken Jackson
brand new to this forum, because as most new people looking for info on pellet heat, but in particular a pellet boiler.
First I wish to thank Mack the knife in particular for posting so much of his research, and then everyone elso who helped with responses.
As mentioned Im looking to purchase a pellet boiler for a new house that I will be building new spring, so I have some time to do some research, but as Im not an impulse buyer Im trying to get all my ducks in a row.
The area we are building has no gas, so the only other options are propane, oil or geothermal. I love the idea of geo, but with a 35K minimum up front its a little scary.
My parameters are heated water for radiant floors and DHW. Im planning on doing some type of solar thermal as a preheat to the very cold welll water that comes in.
Ive decided I dont want a unit that has to be manual lit, and those types usually have a minimum constant burn. Something that has some sort of minimal auto cleaning so you are not cleaning the pot every night, and some sort of decent hopper for more than 2 days burn time.
Some of the ones Ive done some reading into are the Froling, the Traeger, the Janfire.
As some here have these unit, and from the dates of postings , had these for at least one full season, Im very must interested in your feedback.
Also anyone with other boiler units that have had good experience, please let all of us know.
There maybe other lurkers out there reading this thread who also could benefit.
Finally, one interesting unit I fount on a site is the Ja-ran multi fuel biomass boiler. Anyone know of this unit.
Thanks again to all with your postings and help,
Regards,
Ken Jackson
Hi Ken.
Research up front is always a good idea.
The Harman PB-105 has been rock solid since I replaced the second igniter. I think they just had
a bad lot of them. (But I still keep a spare...)
Cleaning: I switched to Okanagan pellets this year. What a difference in cleaning. They have so little
ash that I only need to clean the burn pot every ten days or so. What a difference over what I used
last year So something to keep in mind is that you want to use a high heat, low ash pellet. I have
used Cubex, NEWP Green Supreme, and Okanagan and had excellent luck with them. There are some
that you need to watch out for. (You can't get a good deal if it's a bad pellet.) I'm sure the boiler you
decide on will also affect your burn experience.
Hopper Size: Much of how long your pellets last is how much you need to run your boiler. I get three
days of burn from about five bags worth in the Harman PB-105. I'm heating just over 2,000 sf. But
we have good southern exposure for passive solar so on sunny days it runs less, even in the dead of
winter.
Storage: This another consideration. Pellets take up room. My basement is chocked full of pellets. It's
nice to have them inside, but it's a nuisance to have them everywhere. I'm thinking about a bulk pellet
system looking forward.
Good luck, Ken. If I can answer any questions I invite you to ask away!!
Best regards,
Mike
Research up front is always a good idea.
The Harman PB-105 has been rock solid since I replaced the second igniter. I think they just had
a bad lot of them. (But I still keep a spare...)
Cleaning: I switched to Okanagan pellets this year. What a difference in cleaning. They have so little
ash that I only need to clean the burn pot every ten days or so. What a difference over what I used
last year
So something to keep in mind is that you want to use a high heat, low ash pellet. I haveused Cubex, NEWP Green Supreme, and Okanagan and had excellent luck with them. There are some
that you need to watch out for. (You can't get a good deal if it's a bad pellet.) I'm sure the boiler you
decide on will also affect your burn experience.
Hopper Size: Much of how long your pellets last is how much you need to run your boiler. I get three
days of burn from about five bags worth in the Harman PB-105. I'm heating just over 2,000 sf. But
we have good southern exposure for passive solar so on sunny days it runs less, even in the dead of
winter.
Storage: This another consideration. Pellets take up room. My basement is chocked full of pellets. It's
nice to have them inside, but it's a nuisance to have them everywhere. I'm thinking about a bulk pellet
system looking forward.
Good luck, Ken. If I can answer any questions I invite you to ask away!!
Best regards,
Mike
Hi again,
so I gave the Froling/Tarm dealer a call.
ready for this???? the small Froling P4 unit is $15,500 but out the door he said about $18000 WOW!
We chatted a bit about the 1.5 Tarm re the manual start up and the cleaning. he mentioned the ash removal is about 3 to 4 days during heavy use, and the unit does not have to be shut down or cool for this. Also still need a back up water heater for DHW during the non heating times.
Love to hear from any Tarm owners as well.
Time to call the Traeger rep
KJ
so I gave the Froling/Tarm dealer a call.
ready for this???? the small Froling P4 unit is $15,500 but out the door he said about $18000 WOW
!We chatted a bit about the 1.5 Tarm re the manual start up and the cleaning. he mentioned the ash removal is about 3 to 4 days during heavy use, and the unit does not have to be shut down or cool for this. Also still need a back up water heater for DHW during the non heating times.
Love to hear from any Tarm owners as well.
Time to call the Traeger rep
KJ
The Pinnacle PB150 is a nice, simple unit. No electronic ignition, easy to work on, 130K btus. Corn or pellet. $7000-7500. Sold tons with many happy customers. This unit may have been discussed already but I didnt want to read 7 pages of posts to check.
I believe Vigas that Ahona is importing makes a pellet boiler with hopper that can burn pellets or splits. Might want to check that out. http://www.ahona.com/ Foamit up
Now that the Pinnacle PB150 has switched to a more fault tolerant and serviceable combustion fan -- you should give it a second look. Auto ignition isn't all its cracked up to be when you begin replacing resistance ignition devices.
I have a Tarm 4.0 heating about 4200 sf with baseboard main floor and radiant in basement with a watermaker for DHW. I have few windows on the south side, walkout basement with 2/3 exposed and 6 sliding glass doors on the north side (2-9 footers, that's where the river is). I would use 1500 gallons of propane and now use 9 ton of pellets. I light it in mid September till mid May. I don't shut down for cleaning and empty the ash when i fill the hopper which is once a week in spring/fall and about 4 days in the winter. Once a month I scrape and brush the tubes. I have my idle interval set at 45 minutes so it burns little at idle. The many available settings are great for adjusting to what is required for the season or just use the factory recommendations and forget about it. A great unit and I almost forget about it at times it's so automatic. I would still recommend a backup system, I have mine in parallel with my propane boiler.
I'm in the same boat as you, and wondering if you've gotten any closer to your choice?
I have an oil boiler and I want to get off fossil fuels. I've been searching for pellet boilers and come to mainly the Harman, LDJ, and Pinnacle. There is the Frojling also but it is almost twice the price.
out of the three that I've been looking at, the Harman is the only that has a self-ignitor. This makes it possible to use the unit year round and heat my water. It also seems like the system will be more efficient, even in the winter, because it can actually shut down when there is no call for heat.
the other two - LDJ and Pinnacle - stay on all winter long. You fire it up in the fall and it is designed to stay on. It will go into low burn mode when there is no call for heat, but this (theoretically in my mind) is less efficient than shutting off. I believe duty cycles of boilers can be 50% or so, so this is a significant issue.
My neighbor has a Harman furnace (not boiler) and he says he has never had an issue with the self-start. My LDJ dealer says that the electricity consumption of the self-start offsets the pellets saved. I find this hard to believe. I even called Harman and asked, and they said it takes about 4-7 minutes of a 450 watt element to start the boiler. That's not a significant power draw really.
The other main difference is the system disign. With the LDJ, they want me to just put a loop on my existing boiler, leading to the LDJ. The LDJ then just heats the water in the existing boiler and everything else stays the same. They offset the temeperature settings on the aquastats, so that if the LDJ runs out of pellets, the oil boiler will kick on automatically. With the Harman, I would
install it as a separate boiler. I could switch between the oil boiler and the pellet boiler, but they wouldn't work in tandem as with the LDJ. Not sure about the Pinnacle.
So I'm looking for more feedback from owners, and others in the same boat as me. I don't want to spend $7K on something that doesn't work, or pick the wrong one.
Any feedback is appreciated. (and I understand the warning in the message pinned at the top of the forum).
thanks
gary in Vermont
Like others here, I'm just trying to decide
I have an oil boiler and I want to get off fossil fuels. I've been searching for pellet boilers and come to mainly the Harman, LDJ, and Pinnacle. There is the Frojling also but it is almost twice the price.
out of the three that I've been looking at, the Harman is the only that has a self-ignitor. This makes it possible to use the unit year round and heat my water. It also seems like the system will be more efficient, even in the winter, because it can actually shut down when there is no call for heat.
the other two - LDJ and Pinnacle - stay on all winter long. You fire it up in the fall and it is designed to stay on. It will go into low burn mode when there is no call for heat, but this (theoretically in my mind) is less efficient than shutting off. I believe duty cycles of boilers can be 50% or so, so this is a significant issue.
My neighbor has a Harman furnace (not boiler) and he says he has never had an issue with the self-start. My LDJ dealer says that the electricity consumption of the self-start offsets the pellets saved. I find this hard to believe. I even called Harman and asked, and they said it takes about 4-7 minutes of a 450 watt element to start the boiler. That's not a significant power draw really.
The other main difference is the system disign. With the LDJ, they want me to just put a loop on my existing boiler, leading to the LDJ. The LDJ then just heats the water in the existing boiler and everything else stays the same. They offset the temeperature settings on the aquastats, so that if the LDJ runs out of pellets, the oil boiler will kick on automatically. With the Harman, I would
install it as a separate boiler. I could switch between the oil boiler and the pellet boiler, but they wouldn't work in tandem as with the LDJ. Not sure about the Pinnacle.
So I'm looking for more feedback from owners, and others in the same boat as me. I don't want to spend $7K on something that doesn't work, or pick the wrong one.
Any feedback is appreciated. (and I understand the warning in the message pinned at the top of the forum).
thanks
gary in Vermont
Like others here, I'm just trying to decide
Hi Gary.
I have my Harman installed in parallel with my oil furnace. I travel quite a
bit and don't want the house to cool down if for some reason the Harman
doesn't start. It's just a matter of flipping the oil on, the Harman off and
manipulating one 90-degree valve. In all fairness I must say that since I
replaced the second igniter in December of last year, I have had no issues
whatsoever. The combustion blower keeps going for quite some time even
after the boiler goes into shutdown, but it's so that there are no residual
hot ash in the burn pot. It's pretty quiet so that's really a non-issue.
Where in VT? (Send me a PM if you want to swing by and see it in action.
I'm not far off interstate 89. )
Best regards,
Mike
I have my Harman installed in parallel with my oil furnace. I travel quite a
bit and don't want the house to cool down if for some reason the Harman
doesn't start. It's just a matter of flipping the oil on, the Harman off and
manipulating one 90-degree valve. In all fairness I must say that since I
replaced the second igniter in December of last year, I have had no issues
whatsoever. The combustion blower keeps going for quite some time even
after the boiler goes into shutdown, but it's so that there are no residual
hot ash in the burn pot. It's pretty quiet so that's really a non-issue.
Where in VT? (Send me a PM if you want to swing by and see it in action.
I'm not far off interstate 89. )
Best regards,
Mike
Just wanted to add an update,
been looking at the Central Boiler company, they have a varierty of products including a pellet boiler. My cousin who has an outdoor wood boiler did some asking and the dealer he used for his old machine (not a Central BTW) says he has heard good things about them.
The Pellet Boiler is their Maxim series, and one of the features I like about it is it auto ignites with the help of a propane BBQ cylinder.
http://www.maximheat.com/
Nice video on their site re the Maxim and its hook up.
Ill keep posting as I find out more, but these look to be worth further investigation.
Cheers all,
Ken J
been looking at the Central Boiler company, they have a varierty of products including a pellet boiler. My cousin who has an outdoor wood boiler did some asking and the dealer he used for his old machine (not a Central BTW) says he has heard good things about them.
The Pellet Boiler is their Maxim series, and one of the features I like about it is it auto ignites with the help of a propane BBQ cylinder.
http://www.maximheat.com/
Nice video on their site re the Maxim and its hook up.
Ill keep posting as I find out more, but these look to be worth further investigation.
Cheers all,
Ken J
garybeck said:
do not be deceived by salesman's' claims or product brochures - such as above!
ANY hot water appliance can be installed in any configuration you would like or that will lend itself to your application. Every installation is different. You might have a series of boilers - or they might be in parallel - you can have stand alone or a multitude. You can have one zone or 27. You can have one heating another - a boiler loop - or a supply loop - or no loop . You can have primary secondary plumbing.
What can you imagine - you can build.
- Status
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