My wife and I just can't take direct wood heat ....it just doesn't agree with us. As you can tell ...I have tried like heck to stay away from an OWB ....but it may be the only way I can get away from fossil fuel with a decent payback. And right now I am not sure that may the case either. Right now though locally ...that is what is being put in and everyone I talk to raves about them because they have deleted their fossil fuel bill and they claim a payback period of no more than 4-5 years. We have central air ...not a problem ....yeah we could use having our electric bills a little lower in the summer months ...but the way we manage it ...it doesn't kill us and replacing the system with a heat pump also doesn't make sense financially since I already have a working system. I guess I wish I would have had the knowledge of the gasification units 8 years ago when I was younger and maybe could have accepted the longer payback period ....but such is life. Keep trying guys! RH
Payback period/Resale value with Boiler system
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headrc said:
Ok, we'll stop pushing the wood stove, but why not the heat pump? I think your climate is just screaming out for a heat pump. Admittedly, the old system is still working, but you already own the ductwork. Replacing it with a heat pump will probably be half the cost of an OWB and I think the electric consumption will be manageable. IIRC, TVA electric rates are very good.
Yeah, it's hard to get rid of that old unit while it is still working, but will it make it 10 more years? Anything older than 10 years is a good candidate for replacement, IMHO.
Chris
Have you ever had a heat pump? Lots of people are pulling them out around here because they just do not get the house warm enough for the energy that they take ...which is why I went with the propane unit in the first place. The main reason to try and get a boiler of some type right now is to get rid of the fossil fuel bill ...and then it just so happens it will also improve the heating (we can raise the temperature) as I understand it. But wifey no likey the house being colder with a heat pump. With all this said ...I can live with our fossil fuel bill if I have to ...if I cannot get rid of it within a five year paypack I just cannot see doing it. RH
headrc said:
Yeah, I have two of them I installed about 5 years ago. We use the woodstove when it gets colder and we have natural gas backup on the downstairs zone. I would wager that you could cut your LP bill in half with one.
Many of the McMansions around here have heat pumps for the majority of their heating and cooling needs and oil or gas backup for the really cold weather. They are great in the spring and the fall when the temperatures are mild out. This seems to be the most cost effective way to deal with our kind of climate. I helped my parents design a system in their new house with heat pumps and oil fired heat. Their bills are very reasonable for the house they built and they haven't complained about the heat pump (and are in their 60's and complain about everything else).
You already have the gas, ductwork and climate for such a setup. Designing a system to completely replace fossil fuels is expensive as you have noticed, but if you could knock half your propane bill out with a just a heat pump might be worth consideration. Nobody really likes a heat pump, but they really do save energy most of the time.
Just an informed opinion, of course...
Chris
So Chris ....why do you not like the concept of the OWB? If I install a heat pump ....I will reduce my gas bill but increase my electric bill ....don't know if that is much of a tradeoff because of the investment in the heat pump. By the way ...thank you for all the dialog ...RH
headrc said:
The concept of the OWB is a good one, but the actual execution ends up with a lot of problem that most owners will overlook because they just spent a lot of money. As you have noticed, they aren't exactly cheap, at least until Tractor Supply starts carrying them. They have a habit of smoking like pigs to the point that some jurisdictions up north are banning them. It is possible to burn one clean enough to be acceptable, but I doubt that you will be able to do this in your mild climate. They also use MUCH more wood than a gasser or a modern stove and even if your wood is free, this has to count for something in labor. They are also not really the lifelong investment that most make them out to be. They tend to rot out after a decade or so and I don't think stainless steel has improved on that lifespan very much, but time will tell. In short, they just aren't the best available technology for the problem.
The heat pump will never cost you as much to run as a fossil fuel system, unless you rely on backup resistance heat. The price difference is narrowing, in fact and resistance is starting to look attractive to people who are paying $4 for oil. In our house (4br 2600sf) the heat pump adds about $100 to the electric bill in the spring and fall months and up to $200 in the summer. This isn't bad for a thermostatically controlled heat source that does the whole house, IMHO.
It would be very hard to predict what your utility bills would look like with such a setup, but consider that LP is probably one of the most expensive ways to heat a house and a heat pump in a mild climate is one of the cheapest, Just presenting an infomed opinion; I have more if you are interested!
No problem on the dialog, if I haven't pissed you off by now...
Chris
You guys must be talking about air to air heat pumps. They flat out don't work up here. What we are able to use in a reasonably well insulated house is a ground source type where you install fluid filled tubing in the earth to pick up or discharge heat. The fluid is then circulated to the indoor unit containing the HX equipment. These work pretty well if sized right and installed in an adequate duct system. Many times we find that existing homes don't have duct that is sufficiently sized so that needs to be checked out by someone who knows.
Both Carrier and Trane have heat pump/gas combo units out now that automatically cycle between each fuel source depending on the parameters you have programmed into the equipment. On the Carrier you can set it so that the Air to air HP runs down to say, 35* and then the gas takes over. For more temperate climates, a unit like that may be a better investment than a gasifier all things considered. Cost for the equipment should run about $4500-$7000 depending on the size and installation of course.
Don't buy the OWB.
Both Carrier and Trane have heat pump/gas combo units out now that automatically cycle between each fuel source depending on the parameters you have programmed into the equipment. On the Carrier you can set it so that the Air to air HP runs down to say, 35* and then the gas takes over. For more temperate climates, a unit like that may be a better investment than a gasifier all things considered. Cost for the equipment should run about $4500-$7000 depending on the size and installation of course.
Don't buy the OWB.
Market value is a great thing. . . buyers and sellers coming together and who can say where they would meet? Well, Linda could, cause she's so damn smart and lovable, but that's another story :sick:
If I were to list my home today, I would definitly mention my Viessman boiler and the fact that ALL floors - including basement an garage are radiant heat. I would word the reference to my wood hydronic carefully. For some market participants, it would be a plus; for others a minus. For one thing, the arrangement I have for gathering wood on someone else's land would not go with the sale of my residence. And I would probably take the GW with me if I thought I didn't get enough for the house with it.
Honestly, I would just hope I didn't need to sell the house until the market comes back, if and when it does.
Jimbo
If I were to list my home today, I would definitly mention my Viessman boiler and the fact that ALL floors - including basement an garage are radiant heat. I would word the reference to my wood hydronic carefully. For some market participants, it would be a plus; for others a minus. For one thing, the arrangement I have for gathering wood on someone else's land would not go with the sale of my residence. And I would probably take the GW with me if I thought I didn't get enough for the house with it.
Honestly, I would just hope I didn't need to sell the house until the market comes back, if and when it does.
Jimbo
Chris ...all of your concerns on the OWB ...are the same as mine. But I have checked with a couple around here who have had them installed for 3-4 years ....and they do not complaing about the smoke although note that it can be a problem if your neighbor is close ....which mine is not and will not be. The problem with gasification units is the price of them but all the other stuff you have to install for the heat storage. The particluar OWB (Shaver) that I am interested in is because of price and supposedly they have been selling them for 25 years or so ....so my intention is to talk to some owners that have had them in for 5-10 years .....or longer if possible. I can then get an opinion about wood usage (in my climate or similar) and dhow the unit has held up. If it can give me 10 years of service ...I have doubled my money compared to just now paying off the gasification unit. And it may be that at that time I am tired or cannot deal with acquiring wood and stuffing any kind of wood boiler at that time ....who knows ....but I can at leats say it was a smart investment.
I have owned the ground wtaer source heat pump system in an earlier life ...it was a nightmare to deal with (25 years ago) and it was still a heat pump and did not keep things warm enough .....and this was in Atlanta Ga. ! Nobody around here likes heat pumps that I can tell except for the possibilty of a slightly lower bill .....not low enough to get rid of fossill fuel (electric plants still use fossil fuel) although I am not sure of TVA ...probably totally hydro .... and my wife will not be happy with setting the temp at 68 and having a tepid heat coming from the furnace.
I wil let you know what I discover on the OWB ....I'd believe I would rather have a gasifier or solar etc. ....anyone selling them on the cheap ...let me know!
RH
I have owned the ground wtaer source heat pump system in an earlier life ...it was a nightmare to deal with (25 years ago) and it was still a heat pump and did not keep things warm enough .....and this was in Atlanta Ga. ! Nobody around here likes heat pumps that I can tell except for the possibilty of a slightly lower bill .....not low enough to get rid of fossill fuel (electric plants still use fossil fuel) although I am not sure of TVA ...probably totally hydro .... and my wife will not be happy with setting the temp at 68 and having a tepid heat coming from the furnace.
I wil let you know what I discover on the OWB ....I'd believe I would rather have a gasifier or solar etc. ....anyone selling them on the cheap ...let me know!
RH
RH, I am giving a serious look at the pellet boilers that are out there. They have some pluses as well as minuses. Pluses are IMHO,No storage needed. Possibly a indirect DHWH for the warmer weather. A more automatic firing for temperature control. No buying wood ahead for proper seasoning. You get what you pay for as far a quantity and MC goes. As compared to buying round wood as there are varying interpretations as to cord sizing and seasoning.They are lighter weight units which would allow an easier sale in the future.
You will need the same insulated supply and return piping as well as circs no matter what method is used to fire a boiler. Ease of loading fuel by the bag or set up a bulk bin with auto feed to hopper.
Minuses are price swings, availability, humping bags around and cleaning as well as other possible maintainence chores..
You could buy a pellet boiler and use it to cut your energy costs and then sell it when the time came. Until the sale is finalized you wouldn't know your final cost. But your widow wouldn't be stuck as the demand for wood heat will do nothing but increase well into the future. As I type oil broke $120 this morning.
Will
You will need the same insulated supply and return piping as well as circs no matter what method is used to fire a boiler. Ease of loading fuel by the bag or set up a bulk bin with auto feed to hopper.
Minuses are price swings, availability, humping bags around and cleaning as well as other possible maintainence chores..
You could buy a pellet boiler and use it to cut your energy costs and then sell it when the time came. Until the sale is finalized you wouldn't know your final cost. But your widow wouldn't be stuck as the demand for wood heat will do nothing but increase well into the future. As I type oil broke $120 this morning.
Will
I have not looked into the pelet boilers ....so what is the costs of install? What are the cost of pellets? Being that after the first year I should be able to get my own free dry wood. RH
free75degrees said:
hey free75degrees, what kind of "kind of system with storage" do you have that pays of in 3 years?
harry
I have a Tarm solo plus 40, yet to be installed with an 800 gallon homemade storage tank. Total cost for the project will be around $13k, so at $4 / gallon for oil it will pay for itself in just over 3 years, less if oil goes up.harry said:
I bought my Tarm solo 40 3 years ago and it has already paid for itself. Price of tarm is up 50% and oil is up almost $2 a gallon since I installed it. Adding homemade storage this summer and will save even more! The price of steal is on the rise, so the cost of making these units isn't going down. Get them sooner rather than later.
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