outdoor shower

[RustyShackleford]

So are you installing hose bibs and a shower valve? or just the hose bibs.
Because if you have both, and you leave the hose bibs turned on / pressurized except when you want to drain it, then no air will come spurting out when you go to shower unless it was previously drained. Regardless, if it's been drained, there will be air in the pipes, which doesn't have to be a big deal.

Yes, hosebibs and a shower valve. You are right though - I'm not thinking clearly. Maybe those auto-drain things are the way to go. Still need to turn off the hosebibs AND the shower valve though, unless just turning off the former will allow the pressure to eventually diminish enough that the drain opens.

 

[gthomas785]

Yes, hosebibs and a shower valve. You are right though - I'm not thinking clearly. Maybe those auto-drain things are the way to go. Still need to turn off the hosebibs AND the shower valve though, unless just turning off the former will allow the pressure to eventually diminish enough that the drain opens.

If it's going to freeze I would just turn off the hose bibs and turn on the shower. Takes what, 30 seconds to do all of that?

 

[EbS-P]

thermostatically controlled heat tape. Wrap it all including the shower valve the. Insulate it all and never turn it off. That’s an idea.

 

[RustyShackleford]

If it's going to freeze I would just turn off the hose bibs and turn on the shower. Takes what, 30 seconds to do all of that?

Yeah I meant to say turn on the shower valve. I assume this is the design where those drain thingies are installed at a low-point dip in the lines between the hosebibs and the shower.

The solution may come down to where it's possible (or most convenient) to have that low point be. If it's at the hosebibs, as I suspect, then the Y-valve is the answer. And everything can be done in one spot (at the hosebibs). The Y-valve also gives a convenient place to attach a hose, to fill the hot tub.

 

[RustyShackleford]

thermostatically controlled heat tape. Wrap it all including the shower valve the. Insulate it all and never turn it off. That’s an idea.

Kinda want it to look nice inside - with a fancy stainless steel valve set and rainhead and all - bunch of foam insulation would kinda ruin that. And one likely time for a hard freeze is when the power goes out in a snow or ice storm. Also, as you know, we just don't get hard freezes here much any more; I don't think this draining thing will be much of a hardship.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Do you guys have any opinions on wood for a floor ? Thinking 1x6 (or 5/4x6) boards with 1/2" gaps. The fairly nearby lumber place (https://hardwoodstore.com) has two species that look really nice and claim to be good outdoor wood: sapele and red grandis. If you scroll down far under Products->Domestic, they have "sound tight knot grade" western red cedar; seems like that one might be splintery though. There's ipe of course, but it's mighty pricey.

 

[all night moe]

For a wood floor, that's exposed to water, nothing beats white oak.
It's what the ships were made of, for good reason.

 

[RustyShackleford]

For a wood floor, that's exposed to water, nothing beats white oak.
It's what the ships were made of, for good reason.

Arrrgh, you're right. Famously, secret to the damage resistance of USS Constitution (aka. Old Ironsides) was that it was a sandwich of live oak between white oak: https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/USS-Constitution-7-31-07.pdf

Slipperiness is the other issue. Saw this in another forum: Ipe is the only hardwood species that meets the ADA requirements for slip resistance in a wet environment, naturally. Not sure what unnatural thing could be done to white oak (or something else) to make it less slippery.

 

[all night moe]

Argh, you're right.

I would still consider the black plastic shower base. Lay that white oak inside it and run a drain. Modifications to your existing deck would only require a hole for the drain. Just a thought.
I do like the idea of using wood to stand on.

 

[Ashful]

For a wood floor, that's exposed to water, nothing beats white oak.
It's what the ships were made of, for good reason.

I work with a good bit of white oak, both as lumber and as firewood. Excellent wood for many things, and as you noted, very good rot resistance for an American hardwood. But it could be awful rough on the feet, especially when weathered. You'll be wanting to sand and oil it annually, if you go with white oak, and have any tenderfeet in the household.

I'd be leaning toward oily African hardwoods, but probably not Ipe, as was mentioned above. If you go with Ipe, do note it is exceptionally hard to work with. Every fastener must be pre-drilled, and it will eat and snap small drill bits if hand-drilling hundreds of holes. Carbide blades are mandatory on saws, and it will still dull carbide like other woods do high speed steel. I hate the stuff, but have used quite a bit for boat trailer bunks, cutting boards, other random stuff. You can likely find a nearly equally rot resistant wood that's not such a total PITA to work, if you visit a specialty woods or decking supply store.

For sitting on boat rails (racing), I always liked the feel and wear of teak. It works similarly to walnut, not too hard, but very oily. Never splinters, never rough, it's a total pleasure. It's kind of blah (turd brown) on the looks, it's definitely not the best looking outdoor wood, but it performs. Most using it on a boat will just wipe all the wood down with oil once per season, basically zero-maintenance, for a topside boat wood.

Another option would be any variety of mahogany, such as sapele. You'd still want to oil or varnish this, it's not so oily to just be left to weather, but it's less coarse than white oak. It also works very nicely.

 

[RustyShackleford]

You can likely find a nearly equally rot resistant wood that's not such a total PITA to work, if you visit a specialty woods or decking supply store.

Well that store I mentioned (post #31) has "red grandis" (a type of eucalyptus) and sapele. Any knowledge of those ?

 

[Ashful]

Well that store I mentioned (post #31) has "red grandis" (a type of eucalyptus) and sapele. Any knowledge of those ?

Note I was editing the post as you responded, you may want to go back and re-read my corrections and additons.

I've worked with Sapele, in fact I rebuilt half a boat out of the stuff, so I was drowning in it for awhile. I also made all of my storm windows on this house from Sapele. It's great stuff, real easy to work with, and pretty rot-resistant. It does NOT like to hold paint, but somehow my spar varnish (Epiphanes) stuck to it just fine these last 15 years on the boat.

If you are varnishing the wood, I'd say Sapele is a slam-dunk. It's absolutely beautiful when varnished and aged. But if not wanting that maintenance headache (one coat per year in sun), then teak might be a better choice, as it only requires a light oil once per year.

I have never worked with eucalyptus.

 

[RustyShackleford]

If you are varnishing the wood, I'd say Sapele is a slam-dunk. It's absolutely beautiful when varnished and aged. But if not wanting that maintenance headache (one coat per year in sun), then teak might be a better choice, as it only requires a light oil once per year.

Teak is WAY too expensive, $40/bf. Sapele with spar varnish sounds good. The thing will have a bit of a roof and be on the north side, so hopefully not too much sun and won't need once/year. Any thoughts about slipperiness when wet ?

 

[Ashful]

Sapele with spar varnish sounds good. The thing will have a bit of a roof and be on the north side, so hopefully not too much sun and won't need once/year. Any thoughts about slipperiness when wet ?

Rabbit hole warning: you're talking to a guy whose invested time in wooden boats is 100x their invested time and interest in woodburning appliances.

I have one boat coated in 16 coats (sprayed) of Epiphanes, and I have not had to do another coat since about 2008, so 15 years. But it's kept indoors, only put in the water for 4 hours on race day, then pulled back out. In the shade, you should also get several years between coats, but that will depend on whether water can get into the wood behind the varnish and cause delamination around joints or screws. The broadside of varnish to wood itself will never fail, it's always when the wood gets compressed or wet around fittings, that you see it starting to fail.

Most of them are made to be underfoot, and although slick when new, will wear in to something less slick with a little time. However, many choose to put a grit into the top coat or two, for optimal traction. They make special grits for this, designed to float better in the finish than regular sand, you just broadcast it onto a wet coat, either freehand or using a pizza shop style garlic shaker.

"Spar varnish" is the term for varnishes made for marine application, "spar" being the generic term for any stick (mast, boom, bow sprit) on a boat. One key feature is the inclusion of phenolic or other UV inhibitors, to protect wood from sun, but there are also other modifications that make this product more suitable than regular varnish/urethane for outdoor/wet use.

There are two basic classes, 1-part and 2-part, and I'll outline some of their pros and cons:

1. Traditional 1-part spar varnish, eg. Epiphanes
   1. No clouding or breakdown in full sun, ever. Just gets more beautiful with age.
   2. Easy application, just brush it on, like oil-based paint.
   3. Available in oil or water base, but of course oil is better in every way except recoat timing and odor.
   4. Softer, especially when "young". Gets harder with age, like alkyd paint, but never as hard as 2-part.
   5. Very easy to repair, just sand paper to feather out around chips / delaminations, then burnish the whole area with 240 grit or synthetic steel wool, and recoat.
   6. Usually 6 - 12 coats on new wood, will build a durable thick shell, as you've seen on old boats or country club picnic tables.
   7. Boats left in the sun, or crashed into each other every weekend on the racecourse, usually get top-coated every year. But I have one boat that's never crashed and kept in a garage when not being sailed, which still looks new after 15 years with no fresh coats. I suspect you will get several years between coats, unless your joinery/fastener design allows moisture to get in behind the wood.
2. Modern 2-part urethane or epoxy-based
   1. More difficult appliation, must be mixed and applied before it starts to set up
   2. Very durable to abrasion and dings, very high initial hardness, no need to wait for it to mature.
   3. Very difficult to repair, if you're going for cosmetics (think pretty wooden boats).
   4. Epoxy-based systems tend to cloud and even break down in full sun, not as UV-stable.
   5. Never needs a recoat, but a full strip and redo might be required after a decade in full sun.

If Sapele is what suits you, I'd use 1-part traditional oil-based Epiphanes, and coat both sides of your project. That will completely encapsulate it, and prevent any moisture from getting in from the bottom side. In shade, as a shower wall or floor, I'd expect to get several years between recoats. Knowing grip is usually only applied in the top coat or two, I'd just brush on a dozen coats with no grip and try using it. If you find it's too slick, then add grip with a single topside recoat later on.

https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/product/product-detail/92

I've only used grip on painted floors, never varnish. But the tech support at Jamestown Distributors is phenomenal, or at least they were 15 years ago, and I suspect they'll point you at the right product. In fact, you may want to just call or email them about the shower project, and see what they recommend. I had an open account there for a few years, but it's been a long time since.

Oh, one last thing... there was a variant of the Epiphanes varnish where you could apply multiple coats without sanding, if you hit a specific recoat timing. This was very handy for quicky building up a half dozen coats on new work, only sanding before the final coat or two to get rid of any dust nibs that built up. I did it on one of my boats, which was like sanding out an entire house by hand. I remember doing a dozen coats with the no-sand crap, then the final 3 coats with the traditional formula I linked above, came out great.



These two photos were taken 2008 and 2022, respectively.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Thanks for taking the time for the detailed thoughts, @Ashful .

Lovely boat, what do you use it for ? Friend of mine hand-built a wooden dory and I got to ride in it for the entire length of the Colorado River through Grand Canyon. Pretty amazing. Little compared to those rapids though. I spent a lot of time hurling my body into the forward gunwales, to help prevent flips (of which there were none, thanks to his absolute mastery of the art & science of rowing whitewater.

 

[Ashful]

Lovely boat, what do you use it for ?

It's a racing boat, but I don't get to race much now that kids sports conflict with most race days. Now it's just a fast "street machine".

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[RustyShackleford]

So I'm a little confused about these frost-free sillcocks. ...

Lawn Faucets - Boshart Industries

boshart.com

I'm not sure what "self-draining" means. Any frost-free unit should allow the water to drain out of the sillcock when it's shut off - assuming it's installed correctly, with a slight downward slant to the outside. Does self-draining mean it'll allow whatever is attached the the hose threads (in my case, the pipes leading to the outdoor shower) to drain out when the tap is turned off (assuming the sillcock is the low point) ?

 

[gthomas785]

Does self-draining mean it'll allow whatever is attached the the hose threads (in my case, the pipes leading to the outdoor shower) to drain out when the tap is turned off (assuming the sillcock is the low point) ?

That's a standard feature, it has a vacuum breaker on top that will let air in to drain the hose when you shut off the sillcock. Problem for most people is that they have a sprayer on the end and/or their yard doesn't slope beautifully away from the house so the water ends up sitting in the hose anyway. As soon as you get one frost with a hose full of water connected, the vacuum breaker is trashed and starts leaking.

 

[Ashful]

@gthomas785 nailed it! I had to replace frost-free sill cocks for a neighbor who used to not only leave their water turned on (bad idea in PA), but also stupidly leave their hose with nozzle connected all the time. Your frost-free sill cocks cannot drain and become "frost free", if there's a hose filled with water still connected to them.

 

[RustyShackleford]

So, if I get a self-draining sillcock, and it's uphill from the sillcock to the faucet & shower head in the outdoor shower, and I turn on the shower faucets when I turn off the sillcocks - I should be good to go, with no freeze damage ? Or will it only work if the shower is downhill from the sillcocks (which I can't do) ?

 

[Ashful]

So, if I get a self-draining sillcock, and it's uphill from the sillcock to the faucet & shower head in the outdoor shower, and I turn on the shower faucets when I turn off the sillcocks - I should be good to go, with no freeze damage ? Or will it only work if the shower is downhill from the sillcocks (which I can't do) ?

I think you're going to want a drain at the lowest point. So, if using a frost-proof sill-cock, you might put a boiler drain the elbow before the riser up to the shower head. Any water left "outside" the stopper of the sill-cock will cause freezing.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I think you're going to want a drain at the lowest point. So, if using a frost-proof sill-cock, you might put a boiler drain the elbow before the riser up to the shower head. Any water left "outside" the stopper of the sill-cock will cause freezing.

Thinking these (suggested above) should do ...

Amazon product ASIN B0CHN3FRSS

 

[Ashful]

Might work! Just note that many irrigation system components are designed to operate at lower pressures. Double-check its rating.

 

[gthomas785]

Yeah, you need a drain at the bottom of whatever is connected to the sillcock. It could be an auto-drain or just a regular old valve that you open whenever you shut off the water.
Or you could just disconnect the hoses going to the shower...

 

[bigealta]

Ok who wants to guess which one of those guys on the Boat is Ashful?