OSBURN 2200 i , Carbon Monoxide issues

[kevinmoelk]

Edmtgs, I'm glad you and yours were not hurt in any way. Like Elk stated, it's a black eye to all the pros who perform the install job correctly.

These photos are evidence why many people, including myself, choose to install their own stoves. The dealer should refund your money and send out a REAL pro to correct the mistakes. I hope you get this problem fixed and get back to burning some wood. Good luck with everything.

-Kevin

 

[edmtgs]

Thank God for CO detector, would not be able to sleep with one or in this case have two in my home. The dealer I bought it from was out of state and did not recommend anyone to me, I found this guy in the yellow pages after calling a around for a local installer. The installer was also listed in http://www.chimneys.com/index.html.

I am a novice to this, but this is a big lesson learned and never will happen to me again. I am going to tell the guy that I have an inspector coming to review his work before he even gets here to make sure he does it right. I wonder how many people he installed inserts for like this? It's an upsetting thought.

Thanks for the input guys.

Ed

 

[elkimmeg]

,This happened Tues day before thanksgiving last year an insert was installed. My inspection was scheduled Wed late afternoon
I went to the home and noticed the suround attached but full liner and noted the owners had their pre burn in the night before.
Being Thanksgiving and the time of the day I was about to pass the inspection , then the wife pipes up, "honey are you going to tell him about the smoke"?
TI told them some smoke and smell was normal per burning a new stove. but she insisted. there was more to it than burn in smoke was comming out from behind the suround
I go to my truck and get a 4and one screwdriver and take the surround off. Similar situation as yours an adjustiable elbow attached to the full liner.
Evidently the made the flue collar and elbow connection while the insert was pulled part way out. When the pushed it in to the final position the pressure i of the block off plate and liner severed the adjustiable flue collar at one of its adjustiable joints. The damn thing was not even connected. Why the installers never looked before they installed the suround I can't guess?

I leanred a LESSON THAT DAY. I will never pass an insert without seeing the connections. If the surround is installed the inspection is over it fails. A re-inspection fee is due to reschedule another inspection with the surround removed.

PS this was to be the center piece of heat and conversation for the familly thanksgiving dinner. The wife had that look, that we husbands see, spitting nails I knew things were going down hill after I left. The husband bought the stove in New Hampshire to avoid the sales tax. and out of state installers did the install. She wanted him to buy it local from a dealer about 3 miles away but the price was too high for his liking. As I'm about to leave, she comments to her husband,"you cheap bastard see where it got you this time".

Man I could not get out of there fast enough but as I going out the door she thanked me. That poor guy.......... was going to get the business as soon as the door closed

The installerrs did return and make it right after thanksgiving

 

[wg_bent]

That is too funny elk.

The one thing I feel like I do not like about the Osburn is that it seems like it should have a better attachment point for the liner/chimney.

Instead of a hole to stick something into like the pictures here (and by the way, my install looks very similar but with a lot of furnace cement) I'd have preferred to see a collar or something sticking up out of the stove that could be filled with cement, and the flex adapter or stove pipe would be pushed into the wet cement and also have a better pressure fit. Not sure if I'm clear here, but I didn't particularly like the way the stove hooks up to the pipe. almost seemed like a peice was missing or something.

 

[MrGriz]

I thought the same thing Warren.

I believe the only reason I did not call my dealer back or call Osburn to find out what was missing was that I read your install posts and PM's. It doesn't seem as though the connector sits far enough into the top of the insert. From our earlier discussions, it sounds like we both ran into exactly the same thing.

 

[wg_bent]

I thought the same thing Warren.

I believe the only reason I did not call my dealer back or call Osburn to find out what was missing was that I read your install posts and PM's. It doesn't seem as though the connector sits far enough into the top of the insert. From our earlier discussions, it sounds like we both ran into exactly the same thing.

Yup. So I assume you sealed yours the same way I did?

 

[MrGriz]

Does this look familiar Warren (I finally found the picture). It may not be the best looking thing in the world, but it's working.

 

[edmtgs]

Hey Warren do you photos of your connnection like MrGriz?

Also on the Osburn whats the purpose of the air tubes in the firebox?

PS. the installer is coming tomorrow, I told him not to close the panel as I am having it inspected after he's done.

 

[wg_bent]

Does this look familiar Warren (I finally found the picture). It may not be the best looking thing in the world, but it's working.

Looks similar. I have some photos on a thread in the pictures. Not as close up. Look at Before the Osburn thread.

 

[wg_bent]

Hey Warren do you photos of your connnection like MrGriz?

Also on the Osburn whats the purpose of the air tubes in the firebox?

PS. the installer is coming tomorrow, I told him not to close the panel as I am having it inspected after he's done.

Air tubes purpose are same as all stoves with air tubes or an air baffle (for lack of a better term) The air gets super heated by being drawn in through the air channels in the stove and out through the air tubes. The hot air mixes with the volital gasses coming off the "cooking" wood and ignites at about 900 degrees (Correct that temp please guys I may have that temp wrong)

 

[wingnut]

Hay griz that looks like the right collar but I think it is mounted upside down. The crimped end goes inside your flex and the other end goes over the collar on the stove. Then you can secure the straps to the top of the sheet metal surround. That way it wont come loose when you clean the stack.

 

[MrGriz]

Wingnut, I sure would like to know who's right on this one. I have been told both. The dealer I bought the insert and the liner from advised me to install it this way. I do know what you are saying though, it seems as though the male end should point up, with the flow of the smoke.

The collar on the top of the insert is very short and I was not able to get the band clamp on. That's why you see the clamp gone and the tabs bent up in the picture. The three screws and the furnace cement are doing a good job of holding it in place and sealing the connection.

I would really like to hear from anyone else familiar with this type of connector and/or insert.

 

[Gooserider]

I don't know about that insert, but the general rule on connecting pipes is sort of counter-intuitive. The male, or crimped end should point TOWARDS the insert!

I know the initial thought is sort of like plumbing an auto exhaust where the male ends point "downstream" so as to minimize the chance of smoke coming out of the joints, but it is different with a stove.

In a stove there are really TWO different flows going on.

1. The smoke going up the chimney.

2. Creosote condensing out of the smoke and dripping back DOWN the chimney.

The smoke isn't a big problem IFF the stove is hooked up properly. The pipe should be relatively leak free, and any minor leaks should be into the chimney since the draft will be sucking the smoke up, and pulling additional air in through any cracks.

OTOH, the creosote is a problem, and even modern clean burning stoves produce some creosote at some times. The creosote is an ugly flammable liquid that will condense on the walls of the pipes and drip downwards (gravity sux...) If the male ends face up, the creosote will leak out onto the outside of the pipe. At best it makes an ugly mess, at worst it then becomes a potential fire hazard. So counter-intuitively when thinking smoke, point the male ends DOWN, so the creosote gets funneled back into the stove, or at least stays in the pipe where it can be reburned or cleaned off.

Think of the pipes as a bunch of nested funnels, you want them to direct the creosote back into the stove.

Hope this helps,

Gooserider

 

[MrGriz]

Thanks Gooserider.

I know that was explained to me at some point, I just couldn't remember the reasoning behind it. I just remembered it seemed backwards, or is that upside down...

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks Gooserider.

I know that was explained to me at some point, I just couldn't remember the reasoning behind it. I just remembered it seemed backwards, or is that upside down...

No problem, like I said it does seem counter-intuitive because we all think of the smoke exiting as the reason for having a chimney, and forget about the creosote that wants to go the other way.... Once you remember that second flow it makes much more sense.

Gooserider

 

[wg_bent]

Hay griz that looks like the right collar but I think it is mounted upside down. The crimped end goes inside your flex and the other end goes over the collar on the stove. Then you can secure the straps to the top of the sheet metal surround. That way it wont come loose when you clean the stack.

There is no collar on that stove. That's part of the problem.

 

[elkimmeg]

must say, that sure is a crappy setup. I have to look at the owner's manual. I willing to bet there is an optional flue collar attachment,
that makes a better connection than what the pictures show. One possible problem I see is ,refractory cement when it dries cracks and looses its ability to form a tight seal
there has to be a better way than this setup.

 

[Andre B.]

Thanks Gooserider.

I know that was explained to me at some point, I just couldn't remember the reasoning behind it. I just remembered it seemed backwards, or is that upside down...

No problem, like I said it does seem counter-intuitive because we all think of the smoke exiting as the reason for having a chimney, and forget about the creosote that wants to go the other way.... Once you remember that second flow it makes much more sense.

Gooserider

It is what I have always been told but it is my opinion that if you have any significant amount of liquid creosote running down the stack you have bigger problems then a mess on the floor. Fix the primary problem first.

 

[wg_bent]

must say, that sure is a crappy setup. I have to look at the owner's manual. I willing to bet there is an optional flue collar attachment,
that makes a better connection than what the pictures show. One possible problem I see is ,refractory cement when it dries cracks and looses its ability to form a tight seal
there has to be a better way than this setup.

Well, if you find it in the manual or elsewhere, Elk, Please post a new thread on it. It's worthy of one.

 

[wg_bent]

The only verbage I found in the manual is this:

Under Installing Solid Fuel Inserts in Factory-built fireplaces:

d) Installation must include a full height listedchimney liner meeting HT requirements (2100 degree F.) per UL 1777 (U.S.) or ULC S635 (Canada). The liner must be securely attached to the insert flue collar and to the chimney top.

That is the only mention of "flue collar" in the manual.

 

[MrGriz]

must say, that sure is a crappy setup. I have to look at the owner's manual. I willing to bet there is an optional flue collar attachment,
that makes a better connection than what the pictures show. One possible problem I see is ,refractory cement when it dries cracks and looses its ability to form a tight seal
there has to be a better way than this setup.

Elk, if you can find a better way or an optional collar attachment, please let me and the other Osburners know. What is there is definitely a poor design at best.

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks Gooserider.

I know that was explained to me at some point, I just couldn't remember the reasoning behind it. I just remembered it seemed backwards, or is that upside down...

No problem, like I said it does seem counter-intuitive because we all think of the smoke exiting as the reason for having a chimney, and forget about the creosote that wants to go the other way.... Once you remember that second flow it makes much more sense.

Gooserider

It is what I have always been told but it is my opinion that if you have any significant amount of liquid creosote running down the stack you have bigger problems then a mess on the floor. Fix the primary problem first.

It is less of an issue with a modern stove, than it is with a pre-EPA model, but it is still a minor issue, and it doesn't take much creosote to make a real mess.... All it takes is a few drops running down the outside of your pipe, it doesn't need to reach the floor to look nasty.

Besides, putting the male ends down also helps when cleaning as anything knocked off will also be falling down, and you don't want it to either escape (shouldn't happen if the joints are put together right, but...) or get stuck in the joints.

With the male end down, any air that gets in is at least going to be headed in the right direction - up and out along with the smoke, and because the draft puts the inside of the chimney under negative pressure, smoke will NOT escape. It is not like a car exhaust which is under pressure from the engine, and never has anything that needs to go the other way up the tailpipe.

Gooserider

 

[edmtgs]

I got the installer to get the collar positively sealed on the stove and put in the proper screws to penetrate the collar.
The guy actually defended his previous work. What an a**hole. Have been burning for about two weeks no problems (0 reading on CO monitor) until the other day my wife and I smelled fumes. Stove was nice and hot burning for at least 8 hours and the gas furnace had not kicked in for 6-7 hours. Co reading 67 , I checked the drafting hoods for the gas water heater and the gas furnace and the flame from my lighter was being sucked in indicating good draft on that part. Need advice. The stove and ss liner were installed in October.

This is for you Elkimmeg to answer your questions from the beginning of the thread. The gas furnace and gas water heater are in a utility room with a outside vent that is 8" x 8 ". the utility room is 7 ft x 7 ft x 8 ft high. The total area where all the appliances are is 28 ft x 28 ft x 8 ft . The return for the gas furnace is basically right in front of the insert. The water heater is rated 40,000 btu/hr the gas furnace 75,000 btu/hr and the insert is 11,700 to 30,400 btu/hr. Also there is a gas dryer( on oppisite side) in that area also 22,000 btu/hr. Please advise on what I need to do to rectify my situation.

TKS

 

[elkimmeg]

the boiler room has enough air to support 9,800 btus the 8/8 outside vent will allow enough air in to support 23,680 BTUS
tolat Btu combustion air vollume is 34,488
required is 75,000 plus hot water heater of 40,000 btus total required 115,000


you lack combustion air in that boiler room of supporting 80,512 translation your setup supports 1/3 of your demand lack 2/3 of the requirement

, even with the 6/6 outside air vent and youtotal area if open you would have problems You have enought vollume with the 8/8 outside air vent to support
135,800 Btus your total demand requirement is 167,000 BTUS

your situation is fas worst than the nunbers speak the basement is in the negative side of the neutral prossure zone plus I only figured the btus of the dryer
however the dryer itself remover onan average of 150cfm when running it not only removes combustion air but many times that

First solution is to connect that burner to a direct outside air feed. Right to the burner head or combustion compartment and supply all combustion air requirements that takes out 75,000 BTUS combustion air needs. Your utility room is still lacking proper support for the hot water heater but there is a surplus in the rest the easiest way would to install a louver door to allow it to draw from the larger area. Another solution would be to bring in more outside combustion air making that vent larger a 10 /10 outside air vent with the burner on a direct air feed would take care of the utility room demand You have a clasic situation where a sum of appliances force a down draft in another one the one with the weakest draft is the first effected.
If you stove has an outside air kit option that too would not be a bad idea Negative pressure situation and the dryer you need to have more than just making the nunbers. The strongest draft will be the dryer because it is forced

I hope I have not confused you but your situation and health meeds some modifications of bringing more air

 

[Gooserider]

One thing to remember about CO alarms that I sort of have mixed feelings about, is that they have LONG delays between when they start to pickup a problem and when they sound, and UL won't let them make one that gives a continuous real time display at low levels.

This cuts down on false alarms, and keeps people from being worried by theoretically harmless short term spikes, but does make it harder to ID problems as they are occurring.

Bottom line, is that it sounds to me like Elk has the situation totally described, and your best fix is to get direct outside air to as many of those burners as you can, or otherwise fix the lack of total venting volume... From a practical standpoint, I'd expect the direct air approach to do the best job and minimize the negative effects of bringing lots of cold air into the house.

Gooserider