Opinions on this Buck Stove 91

[mellow]

and installation procedures

This is one place where Buck really drops the ball, they say it is OK for a direct connect, but really it isn't. Trust me when I say you will want to run an 8" INSULATED liner to the top of the chimney, especially if you have a short exterior chimney. You will not be happy with the performance otherwise.

 

[Fastdonzi]

I have 25' of 8" insulated liner, when I have a fire going and open the door I have No worries of smoke spillage.. That thing is sucking like a Beast. Sounds like fueling a Jet motor.....

 

[Woody Stover]

I have 25' of 8" insulated liner, when I have a fire going and open the door I have No worries of smoke spillage.. That thing is sucking like a Beast. Sounds like fueling a Jet motor.....

Pulls great on 21' as well.

 

[BonjiB]

This is one place where Buck really drops the ball, they say it is OK for a direct connect, but really it isn't. Trust me when I say you will want to run an 8" INSULATED liner to the top of the chimney, especially if you have a short exterior chimney. You will not be happy with the performance otherwise.

I BOUGHT IT

The direct connect wisdom you've offered is what I've gathered regarding these stoves but I have a fun story. I went to get this unit today and learned exactly how heavy they are first of all, but also that some people just stick these in their fireplaces and go. This thing wasn't hooked up to a chimney liner, not even a collar. The installer literally stuck it into the fireplace and put the trim panels on with insulation. When we pulled it out there was about 2 inches of creosote built up on top of the unit and all around it. The chimney had a rectangular damper about 18x6 inches or so and black buildup EVERYWHERE.

I'm honestly surprised this house hasn't experienced a chimney fire. Needless to say I was a little disappointed by not getting a liner or pipe of any kind with the unit but I can deal with that - this is still an amazing deal. I also warned the guy NOT to build a fire of any kind until that chimney is properly swept and inspected for his own sake.

The stove is in overall excellent shape! After I knocked all the black build up off inside and inspected everything I found the interior to be in great shape. No warping or discoloration. The firebrick is also in fine shape. A little warping on the cat shield but I understand that's normal. The windows are a little dirty and that's about it. I was blown away - the pictures really don't do this thing justice. I'm very pleased with this find. The blower works well and the catalyst looks like it might have been replaced sometime recently - not perfect but not destroyed or clogged and definitely not the original one that came with the unit thank goodness.

I understand why the installer didn't use a liner because reading through the original manual that came with the unit (yes, the seller had it) there is zero mention of installing a chimney liner as part of the installation procedure except in certain listed circumstances. It says "It is not necessary to direct connect this unit unless one of the following conditions exist:" and lists 6 scenarios. Have regulations changed or have enough people burned their houses down to realize this is a bad idea?

This was a 12 hour excursion in all, and my everything hurts - but she's sitting in my living room waiting for all the bits to come together for installation. I'm hoping to get to that in the coming week. Woohoo!

 

[begreen]

Congratulations. I'm happy it worked out well for you. Get a liner on that stove and it should perform well. Keep us posted on progress.

 

[BonjiB]

Congratulations. I'm happy it worked out well for you. Get a liner on that stove and it should perform well. Keep us posted on progress.

So I have a question on liners. What's keeping me from being cheap and doing something like this guy? I know lots of folks like to have the best, but if this won't melt and kill my family in a horrible death-fire assuming I keep it swept regularly, what's stopping this from doing the job? Would I sacrifice anything besides longevity by going the cheap route? I know less insulation results in more deposits but I own a chimney sweep and maintain the chimney myself as it is. I'm not a rich man and we have many other projects to tackle with this house. I'd rather sweep more often than invest more money. Thoughts?

(broken link removed to http://www.northlineexpress.com/8-duraflexal-25-aluminum-chimney-liner-8dfa-25-6802.html)

 

[BrotherBart]

Well, the fact that the max flue temp for aluminum liner is 470 degrees would pretty much make it illegal, as well a suicidal, to use it with a solid fuel burning appliance.

 

[revdocjim]

I'm no expert and I'm sure others who are will weigh in on this, but peace of mind certainly has to be an issue. Cat stoves are great for their long burn times... load it up, get the cat going and then go to bed without a care in the world. I fully appreciate the money issue but if there is real danger in skipping the liner I would definitely try to come up with the money and put it in.

Congratulations on what sounds like a great deal.

 

[begreen]

So I have a question on liners. What's keeping me from being cheap and doing something like this guy? I know lots of folks like to have the best, but if this won't melt and kill my family in a horrible death-fire assuming I keep it swept regularly, what's stopping this from doing the job? Would I sacrifice anything besides longevity by going the cheap route? I know less insulation results in more deposits but I own a chimney sweep and maintain the chimney myself as it is. I'm not a rich man and we have many other projects to tackle with this house. I'd rather sweep more often than invest more money. Thoughts?

We can't advise for corner cutting especially when safety is involved. Get off the wallet. This is infrastructure. Do it safely and properly or not at all. The family is depending on you to do this right.

 

[BonjiB]

Got it. Fire bad. Get the right pipe. I'll start shopping for one of those and keep you posted. Thanks for the advice!

 

[BonjiB]

Ok! I think I have a solution! It looks like Lowe's carries single-wall rigid 8 inch diameter, 24 inch long stove pipe segments by Imperial for a reasonable price. Is there any problem assembling these segments into say 3 longer segments, then connecting those as I run them down the chimney? I think I'd want to use sheet metal screws and furnace cement on the joints to ensure it doesn't leak. Then, use two adjustable 90 degree elbows at the bottom to connect to the stove. I just did some measuring and I'm reasonably confident that would fit just about perfectly. I'm going to drop a rope down it tomorrow and measure to see exactly how much pipe I need.

I have a triple stack chimney with fairly wide mouths and a very custom cap that covers all three stacks with one welded stainless cap. I'm thinking a piece of sheet aluminum to cover the mouth of the stack servicing the stove, with an 8 inch hole machined in it, should fit up under this custom cap and provide an outlet for the stove pipe while still utilizing the existing cap for moisture protection. I have some scrape sheet metal around here somewhere I can use for this part. Then just seal the sheet metal up with silicone and masonry screws, and apply furnace cement where the pipe comes through the sheet. Seems like a solid plan to me... Can you help me poke holes in it?

Rigid stove pipe is safe to use in chimneys right? I assume everyone uses this expensive flex stuff for convenience. Any thoughts on this?

Edit: Additional info - this fireplace is pretty much right in the middle of the house.

 

[begreen]

Only stainless steel is allowable in a chimney. Black metal pipe is not. Rigid stainless is ok, but a flex liner is probably less expensive. The chimney must be completely clean before putting in the liner. That includes the smokeshelf.

I'm not following the discussion of the other pipe with the aluminum cap? Is this a masonry chimney or a prefab chimney? What is meant by a triple stack chimney and what is the connection here?

 

[rwhite]

Don't skimp on the liner. I basically went the same route as you. Bought a used insert, did all the work myself, researched the daylights out of the cheapest way to do it etc. Not only will you have piece of mind that it was done right and your family will be safe, were talking a $200 difference in using the right material vs something that will put you at risk.

 

[BonjiB]

I guess I'm not pulling research from the right places. Can you guys give me a link to a reference or tell me what book all this wisdom is coming from? I'm not finding a definitive guide on this stuff or really any clear cut building codes. From a technical standpoint I don't understand the difference between shiny steel and black steel when it comes to containing combustion gasses and creating the proper draft. I'm not deliberately being dense here - I'm just having trouble understanding the differences between these products - and I do appreciate everyone's patience with me.

If it's rated as stove pipe and it works for one application, I just don't see how installing it in a masonry chimney reduces it's effectiveness or makes it more dangerous from some other approved application. If this black pipe is no good or worse, dangerous, why is it sold as a product to use with solid fuel? My chimney is big enough that it wouldn't touch the walls of the chimney on the way up. This isn't a tight tera cotta lined chimney - it would be more akin to installing a stove pipe in an open space. Does that change the dynamics of it at all?

To answer your question, begreen, this is a masonry chimney with three "fireplaces." There are two back to back fireplaces on the main level, and another stack running down to the basement where a hole to install a stove exists. There are three total chimneys contained within one giant masonry construction. This house was built in 1965 and they really didn't skimp when building this fireplace. It was clearly intended to be the primary heat source when this hose was built. The chimney cap is about 6 feet wide by 2.5 feet wide or so, all welded steel construction that covers all three chimneys. I was suggesting installing sheet aluminum under this cap and over the middle stack (the one servicing the fireplace I'd like to put the stove into) with an 8 inch hole machined to make way for the pipe, in order to seal the chimney against debris and bugs and stuff. So the stove pipe would come up under the cap that's there but protrude through the aluminum sheet and be sealed there with masonry screws and caulk. Just a way of sealing it up top and keeping the pipe from moving around.

I don't mind spending money if it's really a safety issue, but I also don't believe in over-engineering things just for the sake of over-engineering. I guess the main question in this reply is why is the black stove pipe not acceptable for chimney applications but is safe for other applications? Seems the same to me so please help me see what I'm missing here. Thanks guys. I really hope my bone headed questions help someone else in the future.

 

[jatoxico]

Congrats on what seems to have been a good find. You're into phase two here, put the right liner in. In the thread you have not posted pics or any details of where the Buck will be in your house. Give some measurements and pictures of the flue dimensions and length, whether its an interior or exterior chimney and the fire box, hearth and current damper. with that info the experts will give you the info you need to install yourself. May be better to do this in a new thread.

 

[rwhite]

The difference is rust. Inside an enclosed space the liner is subject to condensation. Black pipe will not last very long. So basically would it work? Yes. For how long? No one knows. And you won't either because it is hidden inside a chimney where it cannot be inspected for rust and failure. Liners are a one and done type of thing. Do the job right, close it up, and don't ever worry about it again other than sweeping.

 

[begreen]

Yes, the issue is corrosion. Stainless steel will hold up much longer than thin black stove pipe. Black stove pipe is only permitted to be used in the room that the stove is, where it is visible. Think about what might happen If the acidic environment of the chimney interior had black steel pipe in it and it corroded through while a fire was going. The chimney would fill with smoke and carbon monoxide. Those fumes would have nowhere to go but back into the house. Now picture this happening at 3am when everyone is asleep. Not a good scene.

This is infrastructure. It will not only allow the stove to operated properly, but it will also allow it to operate safely. Do it right for your family's safety and for personal peace of mind.
http://www.csia.org/homeowner-resources/about_chimney_liners.aspx
http://www.homesaver.com/content/tenquestions_liner.aspx

 

[Woody Stover]

Yes, the issue is corrosion. Stainless steel will hold up much longer than thin black stove pipe. Black stove pipe is only permitted to be used in the room that the stove is, where it is visible.

And from the stove to the ceiling, flue gasses stay hot enough so that nothing condenses in that section, and the steel pipe lasts a long time. A long time ago, before I knew better, I had stove pipe all the way up; That stuff was getting thin after a couple years. Now I have HomeSaver HD RoundFlex liner in there. It was pricey but I should be done for good.
I've got a new 25' HomeSaver Pro (mid-weight) liner. Unfortunately it's 6", otherwise I would cut you a deal...Georgia isn't all that far from here.

 

[Woody Stover]

About how many feet of stack do you need? Do you have to cut out a chimney damper to get the liner through? Is this an exterior chimney or does it rise through the center of the house? If interior, you may be able to get by with no insulation. If you have a straight shot up the chimney clay liner, with a jog at the bottom, you might be able use rigid liner. You need a 13 x 13" ID clay liner to have plenty of room for 8" pipe, and coming through a damper area could be tight. There are some chimney pipe offset tables online that may help you figure out what elbows and pipe section length you need to make the jog. On my BIL's basement install, I just guesstimated what I needed and was able to get it to work. All stainless; Top plate, clamp, storm collar, (4) 4' sections of rigid for the straight clay liner section, 4' insulation sleeves, (2) 15° elbows to make the jog, a section of pipe between those, and into a tee with crimped snout which rear-exits the stove sitting halfway out of the fireplace opening. The 304 liner is a bit cheaper than 316 Ti if you have to buy new. You might be able to fab the top plate, clamp and storm collar.
Hey, I just remembered, I have some stainless 8" rigid liner, and a section of cheesy lightweight flex that came with the Buck...wanna take a drive?
Actually, you may be able to locate some stainless liner on craigslist that might be pretty close to your place; That would be the way to do it cheap, yet right.
Haven't re-read these in a while, but I think they cover the basics. Look at liner kits to see all the components you need. You might be able to fab a top plate and storm collar to save some money.
(broken link removed to http://www.hartshearth.com/ProductCart/pc/viewcontent.asp?idpage=16)
(broken link removed to https://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/blog-2/cat/articles-and-info/)
http://www.discountchimneysupply.com/installing_a_chimney_line.html

 

[Bill C]

For what's it worth! The Buck Stoves & Inserts are all good quality. I considered on last winter before I purchased a PE Summit .
I do know that the unit looks like its in good shape. Anything like the cat or other internal parts are available from Buck. I can tell you that the insert is around $2000 new depending on the dealer. I have no idea what your installation is but, for the money it's a heck of a buy. You can get your money back if you don't like it.

 

[BonjiB]

About how many feet of stack do you need? Do you have to cut out a chimney damper to get the liner through? Is this an exterior chimney or does it rise through the center of the house? If interior, you may be able to get by with no insulation. If you have a straight shot up the chimney clay liner, with a jog at the bottom, you might be able use rigid liner. You need a 13 x 13" ID clay liner to have plenty of room for 8" pipe, and coming through a damper area could be tight. There are some chimney pipe offset tables online that may help you figure out what elbows and pipe section length you need to make the jog. On my BIL's basement install, I just guesstimated what I needed and was able to get it to work. All stainless; Top plate, clamp, storm collar, (4) 4' sections of rigid for the straight clay liner section, 4' insulation sleeves, (2) 15° elbows to make the jog, a section of pipe between those, and into a tee with crimped snout which rear-exits the stove sitting halfway out of the fireplace opening. The 304 liner is a bit cheaper than 316 Ti if you have to buy new. You might be able to fab the top plate, clamp and storm collar.
Hey, I just remembered, I have some stainless 8" rigid liner, and a section of cheesy lightweight flex that came with the Buck...wanna take a drive?
Actually, you may be able to locate some stainless liner on craigslist that might be pretty close to your place; That would be the way to do it cheap, yet right.
Haven't re-read these in a while, but I think they cover the basics. Look at liner kits to see all the components you need. You might be able to fab a top plate and storm collar to save some money.
(broken link removed to http://www.hartshearth.com/ProductCart/pc/viewcontent.asp?idpage=16)
(broken link removed to https://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/blog-2/cat/articles-and-info/)
http://www.discountchimneysupply.com/installing_a_chimney_line.html

You said a lot of good stuff. Let me respond.

I haven't measured yet. I intended to but got busy with work. I estimate 20-25. I haven't decided what I'm doing with the damper yet. It wiggles a bit so I might try prying it out or carefully chiseling the morter out of the bricks it sits against to give me some more wiggle room. If I did have to cut the damper it would mutilate it pretty horribly and be a big job to make way for an 8 inch pipe. I think removing some bricks and mortaring them back in after I get the damper out might be the easiest way to go honestly. Mortar isn't too expensive if I have to knock out just a few bricks. I've seen these ovaling techniques but I'm not sure i have the clearance to do that. I think the whole damper assembly will have to come out. It'd be nice to potentially preserve the damper in case I ever wanted to revert. I don't generally like doing irreparable damage when "improving" things. Also, I intend on taking this stove with me when I move someplace else so I'd like to be able to undo my actions here at some point in the future.

It is an interior chimney completely enclosed in the house. The only bit exposed to the elements is the part sticking out of the roof. I don't intend to insulate the pipe honestly. This isn't Alaska and like you mentioned, it's an interior chimney. There's no clay here - this is an old school wide mouth brick and mortar chimney. I've actually found rigid liner to be more expensive than a flex pipe kit for some reason. With the damper out of the way I should have enough room in there to bring the collared flex pipe directly to the stove. There'd be a ton of room up there with the damper removed.

What kind of deal are you offering on your pipe? If it's sweet enough I could see making a weekend trip to Indiana - haven't visited your state yet. I've only seen one thing anywhere near me on Craigslist that might work and the dude has it listed for it's retail price and hasn't responded to me yet. It's unused but still - I'm not driving somewhere and hauling things when I could have it drop shipped to my house for a very similar price. As for the top plate, I'm definitely fabbing that. I have plenty of metal tools and scrap to get that done well.

I'll take a look through your links a little later. I have some more things to do before bed. Thanks for the input!

 

[BonjiB]

BTW: I decided to not cheap out on the pipe if you can't tell. A lot of very compelling cases have been made. I also spoke with a friend of mine who burns wood exclusively and he explained how he went through several cheap stove pipes and they kept corroding where the pipe meets the stove and smoking up his house. Point made. Thanks everyone who didn't let me be stupid!

 

[begreen]

With no tile liner there is little protection from the heat that will come off of the liner. An insulated liner will greatly improve the safety of this installation.

 

[rwhite]

I will give my 2 cents on the insulation. I struggled with spending the extra $200 or so. Did I really need it? I may never know (like trying to prove a negative). I do know that I can sit back, watch the fire, and sleep well several years later and not question my decision. I know that the install was done as best it could be. Nothing wrong with being frugal (I am) but don't be cheap.

 

[firefighterjake]

There's being frugal . . . and then there's being cheap.

Being frugal is getting a woodstove and installing it correctly so that it burns efficiently . . . less time and money spent scrounging, stacking, buying or processing wood . . . and knowing you most burn the house down.

Being cheap is getting a woodstove and installing it as cheaply as possible . . . and seeing any potential savings go out the proverbial door when a fire damages or burns the house down.


Happy to see you doing the safe thing.