OMG WHAT IS THIS....HELP

[twigg]

Installing an uncertified stove can also void insurance policy coverage in some instances.

Why void insurance?

The law is in regard to emissions, not safety.

 

[fossil]

It's without question an interesting and beautiful old stove. If nothing can be found in terms of manufacturer or original documentation, then in order to safely install it with the intent to actually use it you'd need to default to the NFPA 211 standard. The going-in position would be 36" clearances from combustibles all around, and some pretty strict hearth requirements. The good news is that properly constructed and installed heat shields could be used to reduce the basic required clearances. If there's nothing about your local code requirements to stop you from putting this stove in and using it, then it can be done safely. Getting your homeowner's insurance carrier to buy off on it would be a matter between you and them, and, I'd think, how thoroughly you could convince them that you'd done your homework and that the installation was done properly and safely. Having your local Authority Having Jurisdiction in terms of building/safety codes & permits along for the ride and approve your installation would go a long way toward getting your insurance company to accept it. Rick

 

[Shari]

Installing an uncertified stove can also void insurance policy coverage in some instances.

Why void insurance?

The law is in regard to emissions, not safety.

.....because that's the rule some homeowners insurance companies have. My homeowners insurance company would void my insurance if the stove I installed did not carry a certified lab testing certificate (like UL, Warner Hershey, Omni, etc.

shari

 

[twigg]

I get that they do it.

I don't get why they are allowed to get away with it.

My house is hit y a tornado and my Ins. refuses to pay because of a code violation on a wood stove?

 

[Highbeam]

Installing an uncertified stove can also void insurance policy coverage in some instances.

Why void insurance?

The law is in regard to emissions, not safety.

.....because that's the rule some homeowners insurance companies have. My homeowners insurance company would void my insurance if the stove I installed did not carry a certified lab testing certificate (like UL, Warner Hershey, Omni, etc.

shari

I can't get a permit to install an uncertified stove. An unpermitted installation is illegal, That illegal installation won't get inspected, and an illegal/uninspected installation is not covered by most agencies.

The quote you copied twigg was from that source which is the clean air authority in our region. They will be biased against the uncertified stoves by default.

I have never heard of anybody in any kind of trouble for installing these non-EPA stoves, nor have I heard of anyone getting in trouble for cutting the catalytic converter off of their car. The real risk presented by using the uncertified stove is that your insurance company could deny your claim if it burns your house down.

Seriously, I would install a barrel stove in my detached shop if I felt that it could not ignite my house and that I was willing to risk losing the contents of the shop. It's not about air quality or the law. It's about exposure to risk.

 

[twigg]

Installing an uncertified stove can also void insurance policy coverage in some instances.

Why void insurance?

The law is in regard to emissions, not safety.

.....because that's the rule some homeowners insurance companies have. My homeowners insurance company would void my insurance if the stove I installed did not carry a certified lab testing certificate (like UL, Warner Hershey, Omni, etc.

shari

I can't get a permit to install an uncertified stove. An unpermitted installation is illegal, That illegal installation won't get inspected, and an illegal/uninspected installation is not covered by most agencies.

The quote you copied twigg was from that source which is the clean air authority in our region. They will be biased against the uncertified stoves by default.

I have never heard of anybody in any kind of trouble for installing these non-EPA stoves, nor have I heard of anyone getting in trouble for cutting the catalytic converter off of their car. The real risk presented by using the uncertified stove is that your insurance company could deny your claim if it burns your house down.

Seriously, I would install a barrel stove in my detached shop if I felt that it could not ignite my house and that I was willing to risk losing the contents of the shop. It's not about air quality or the law. It's about exposure to risk.

I understand that. No probs with me if an unapproved stove burns the house down.

That isn't the impression that was being given. The conversation was about policy cancellations just because ....

 

[fossil]

Maybe we could un-hijack the thread and get back to the OP's questions and concerns about the stove with which she's enamored...? Rick

 

[[email protected]]

Okay, Get your stomach out of the equation here for a moment. Maine has some pretty simple rules, ie. don't burn your house down. I'm from North Boston, bred and raised in the city and havn't seen anything like this place in my life. Rules are pretty simple, stay out of the locals way...tee hee heee. You all, I appreciate all you've said and yes I have learned a lot. Although I would love to buy this stove, I'm now afraid of it, not the stove, the local code enforcer. Yes, it probably goes through quite a bit of wood, but hell, I run an ashley now..what's that tell ya. I am going to buy a fischer this morning. I probably will try and buy that other stove for outside, It somehow is calling my name. Thank you so much for all the information. I'm not one to take advice but yours I will. Fire scares me...tee hee hee

 

[ashpanannie]

Wow, what a beautiful stove! Do try to get it, and if nothing else, polish it up and make yourself a very nice profit by reselling it to someone like me! That reminds me so much of my Dad's old workshop stove. I would sit near it in the winter and whittle with my Girl Scout knife while he put together old tube radios. I'd buy that thing in a heartbeat, and so would many others. Great find, I'm envious!! lol!

 

[glacialhills]

To get back to the original question, it looks like a water heating stove. Meant to heat hot water(pre gas or electric hot water heater tank ) for baths and washing cloths and dishes and prolly also to added humidity to the home. Its an awesome looking old stove and looks to be in great shape and if not having any structural problems I wouldn't think it would be any more dangerous to have operating than one of the thousands of old Franklins running at this moment or Vogalzang's that are still being made, bought, and in operation all over the country.
If the local codes don't outlaw a pre epa stove I would not have a problem running it with proper clearances and shielding. A lot of folks in our part of the country heat and cook on pre epa stoves and dont have any problems. Not everyone can afford/want a brand new epa stove and do just fine without burning their houses down.
I bet stoves just like this one have kept a few people down south from having to leave their home or freezing during this big ice storm. This stove would be just the ticket to keep warm and clean during an extended outage.( I hear its been hard getting gas for generators in some areas that were hard hit for miles around). If you only had an electric water heater as most people do, no more hot water! it would get old, real fast, bathing and washing cloths and dishes in cold water. This stove would be a god send.It looks like at least 10 gallon tank on top. Be really hard to heat that much water, on a regular wood stove.
Just keep the chimney clean, burn good wood, and follow safety clearances and install proper shielding and I say go for it.
For more info and to ask an expert go here. They evaluate, restore and even buy old stoves. (broken link removed) Good luck.

 

[firefighterjake]

Pretty stove.

As others have mentioned this is a pre-EPA stove from way back when . . . which means . . . you will no doubt burn more wood for equivalent heat, rules for installing this stove since it is no doubt unlisted are more stringent (Fossil mentioned many of these rules, i.e. 36 inches to clearance without building clearance reductions), parts may not be easily available and there is no view of the fire (which to me is important.)

On the flip side, if this stove is in good shape the price is decent and the stove definitely is a looker and unique . . . and in Maine you can install this stove providing codes are followed.

If I were me and I was interested in the stove I would first ask myself if I want a woodstove primarily to heat a home with wood as efficiently as possible or if I'm looking for the ambiance . . . if the answer to this question is that you're looking to heat a home with wood as efficiently as possible I would consider an EPA stove as you will burn less wood, end up with some modern conveniences with some models (i.e. ash pans, cat converters for extended burn time, etc.) and in the process produce less bad stuff in the air. If however I wanted a stove primarily for the ambiance and I liked this stove a lot I would consider this stove knowing before buying that there is a trade off in efficiency.

The second thing I would do is contact the local Code Enforcement Officer in town who inspects new woodstove installs . . . realizing that here in Maine this could be an actual Fire Inspector with the FD, the Fire Chief doing this on the side, an actual Code Enforcement Officer in town or it could be a case where there is no one in town actually doing this service. I would ask that person (if available) as well as your local insurance agent if there would be any problems with this stove being installed per Code (NFPA 211).

This said, I've said it once, and I'll say it again . . . it's a pretty stove.

 

[firefighterjake]

just recently me. ins. co, offered coverage for install of 2 [oil & wood]appliances in 1 chimney somehow bypassing NFPA211 with conditions,inspection,,etc.
ITS A STUPID RULE ANYWAZE!

While I disagree with folks bypassing the way NFPA establishes codes and standards (i.e. one group unilaterally deciding to ignore a code such as allowing an oil boiler/furnace and woodstove to share a flue) I will say that our Fire Inspector has done some digging and actually asked a person who sits on the NFPA Committee that deals with this standard why this code is in place . . . and while there are a lot of guesses as to why it was created (i.e. draft issues, CO issues, possibility of a fire, etc.) it seems as though no one from that Committee has a definitive answer as to why this rule is in place.

This said it would seem to me that the insurance company who has instigated this unilateral change by ignoring the rule should work with the NFPA Committee to revise the actual code if they feel the change is warranted since currently the insurance company can OK the two appliances in one flue rule . . . but the Code Enforcement Officer/Fire Inspector in most cases will continue to deny the permit or install since it is violating the code.

But I digress from the original post . . .

 

[LeonMSPT]

I just got off the phone with my insurance agent. He said he's been out with the underwriter inspecting some installations and has learned alot.

1. "Some" wood boilers can actually be hooked up in tandem with oil boilers in the same smokepipe attachment to the flu. They have to have a postive block-off that automatically closes and disconnects the appliance that is currently running. They both can't operate at once.

I was "stunned" to hear it. I simply cannot believe anybody would install a block off in the flu of a wood or coal boiler, that automatically closes when the oil boiler takes over. There is always a fire smoldering in the box of a wood/coal boiler, sometimes for hours after the fire is "out".

2. They like to have people "be safe", and do the right thing. However, like my own situation where I replaced a grandfathered oil fired hot water heater with the wood/coal boiler, they don't have a big problem with it. "Explosion won't be any bigger with the wood boiler than with the oil fired hot water heater if either one sucks up a lung full of gasoline fumes." Do try to keep the gas away from either one.

3. Most communities in Maine don't require an inspection of wood burning installations. Most don't have a fire inspector. Most haven't adopted either NFPA or BOCA, and the state code is weak when it comes to code enforcement in residential occupancies. Frankly, they lack the authority to force a homeowner to open the door and allow them in to inspect in the first place.

just recently me. ins. co, offered coverage for install of 2 [oil & wood]appliances in 1 chimney somehow bypassing NFPA211 with conditions,inspection,,etc.
ITS A STUPID RULE ANYWAZE!

While I disagree with folks bypassing the way NFPA establishes codes and standards (i.e. one group unilaterally deciding to ignore a code such as allowing an oil boiler/furnace and woodstove to share a flue) I will say that our Fire Inspector has done some digging and actually asked a person who sits on the NFPA Committee that deals with this standard why this code is in place . . . and while there are a lot of guesses as to why it was created (i.e. draft issues, CO issues, possibility of a fire, etc.) it seems as though no one from that Committee has a definitive answer as to why this rule is in place.

This said it would seem to me that the insurance company who has instigated this unilateral change by ignoring the rule should work with the NFPA Committee to revise the actual code if they feel the change is warranted since currently the insurance company can OK the two appliances in one flue rule . . . but the Code Enforcement Officer/Fire Inspector in most cases will continue to deny the permit or install since it is violating the code.

But I digress from the original post . . .

 

[karri0n]

I did read somewhere about the exhaust deposits of a wood boiler and an oil boiler together causing chemical reactions and making a caustic substance that eats through metal/mortar, but I can't attest to the accuracy of that.



edit: this was actually a well respected source of info on wood heat that I found this information from if I recall correctly. I do know ins companies get a lot of calls about those giant birds, though, so it makes sense if they still allow it.

 

[LeonMSPT]

Yeah. But it drives away the big birds that would fly away with small children... so they don't have a problem with it.

I did read somewhere about the exhaust deposits of a wood boiler and an oil boiler together causing chemical reactions and making a caustic substance that eats through metal/mortar, but I can't attest to the accuracy of that.