Ok to have an insert stick out an extra inch?

[philaphire]

Sorry for the late chime in, but I too had an issue with a tapered fireplace making it "shallow" So I just wanted to give a shout out to what I got, the Avalon Rainer with 45 degree flue. Here are the dimensions:
Height 20 1/8"
Width: 25 3/4"
Depth onto hearth: 10" (which means a 28"hearth)
BUT, depth into fireplace a mere 9 1/2"

 

[wg_bent]

In terms of the fireplace construction, keep in mind that most inserts AND stoves put in front of the fireplace put VASTLY less strain and heat on the actual masonry of the firebox, so although it is important for ANY fireplace to be in decent condition, the stove or insert will make the existing setup MUCH safer. In fact, I would say that it is virtually impossible for heat radiation from a double wall insert or even a single wall stove to soak through typical fireplace walls with any negative effect....common sense tells us that an open fire in a masonry fireplace is MANY times hotter than a contained fire.

Another point is that some fireplaces built long ago are often built better than those from 1950-2000, because they were actually used! Of course, time can wear them down, but at least the "art" of building fireplaces was in full swing when yours was constructed.

You do want to be concerned about the mantel, front hearth clearances and also any wood that might be embedded in the masonry close by (usually in the front above the fireplace or close to the sides)....in that regard, a double wall insert gives an extra margin of safety.

Well put Craig. I was going to post a similar set of comments. One thing you might want to look into is the Hearthstone Homestead hearth mount. This would keep the stove out front and avoid any of the concerns Elk pointed out. (Honestly, I think he may be overly cautious here, but in support of him, he err's on the side of safety which is good)

With the Homestead you'll still need to ensure you have the fireproof floor out front.

 

[elkimmeg]

.

common sense tells us that an open fire in a masonry fireplace is MANY times hotter than a contained fire.

This is not true: with a fully open damper most of the heats exits up the chimney, never residing in the fire box long enough to build up.

A stove function is to reduce the exit heat. It does not have a constant 900 sq inch opening to allow cool room air to mix in with the fire

It has about 10 sq inches or less fully open. The fire place bricks are never exposed to 600 degrees or more radiating 24/7 with an open fire.

That is why close attention must be observed when adding an insert.

As for being built better this could be true but modern ones have not had that time frame to degrade. Most modern one in my town are inspected during the throat stage,
before they are allowed to continue. then inspected again during my final mechanical inspection. I can show you where built in the past was not better..

Right here while doing a donor installation Turnertheburners stove, had no cap. The first 12 roll of bricks could be picked up with ones hand.
I have opened up ash cleanouts and found as much as 55 gal barrells of motar deteriated bricks and clayflue powder

Only till the 80's was double wall bricks required I have seen 3 wall chimneys where the 4th wall of the chimney was the boards of the home.

I would not put a lot of credence to they were build better in the past. I'll take double wall brick construction over past single wall old motar any time.

 

[wg_bent]

.

common sense tells us that an open fire in a masonry fireplace is MANY times hotter than a contained fire.

This is not true: with a fully open damper most of the heats exits up the chimney, never residing in the fire box long enough to build up.

A stove function is to reduce the exit heat. It does not have a constant 900 sq inch opening to allow cool room air to mix in with the fire

It has about 10 sq inches or less fully open. The fire place bricks are never exposed to 600 degrees or more radiating 24/7 with an open fire.

That is why close attention must be observed when adding an insert.

As for being built better this could be true but modern ones have not had that time frame to degrade. Most modern one in my town are inspected during the throat stage,
before they are allowed to continue. then inspected again during my final mechanical inspection. I can show you where built in the past was not better..

Right here while doing a donor installation Turnertheburners stove, had no cap. The first 12 roll of bricks could be picked up with ones hand.
I have opened up ash cleanouts and found as much as 55 gal barrells of motar deteriated bricks and clayflue powder

Only till the 80's was double wall bricks required I have seen 3 wall chimneys where the 4th wall of the chimney was the boards of the home.

I would not put a lot of credence to they were build better in the past. I'll take double wall brick construction over past single wall old motar any time.

Using your own point though is why an insert would be the best option. (if stove vs insert are the options) The insert shroud (outer layer of metal) doesn't get to 500 - 600 degrees. The whole point of the insert is to move as much of the heat out as possible. Yes some transmits, but no where near as much as in the case of a cast or steel stove in close proximity to the walls of the fireplace. I still think the ultimate solution here is the Homestead hearth mount with appropriate flooring in front to meet code.

 

[BrotherBart]

Using your own point though is why an insert would be the best option. (if stove vs insert are the options) The insert shroud (outer layer of metal) doesn't get to 500 - 600 degrees. The whole point of the insert is to move as much of the heat out as possible. Yes some transmits, but no where near as much as in the case of a cast or steel stove in close proximity to the walls of the fireplace. I still think the ultimate solution here is the Homestead hearth mount with appropriate flooring in front to meet code.

Just for reference. With the 30-NC pretty much filling up my fireplace, four inches clearance back and sides and a block off plate above it the fireplace walls never were observed over 278 degrees with the stove running between five and six hundred and the pipe around 800.

You have to figure an insert with a shroud around it is going to heat'em up even less. Witness the fact that nobody can cook on their shrouds that I have ever heard of.

The big insert I used to have in there didn't get the shroud over 400 when it was cranking at near a grand.

 

[webbie]

.

common sense tells us that an open fire in a masonry fireplace is MANY times hotter than a contained fire.

This is not true: with a fully open damper most of the heat exits up the chimney, never residing in the fire box long enough to build up.

The fire place bricks are never exposed to 600 degrees or more radiating 24/7 with an open fire.

That is why close attention must be observed when adding an insert.

I have to disagree with your theory that stoves produce more heat against a rear or side interior fireplace wall than does an open fire - in my opinion, it is not even close!

I inspected an open fireplace which had set a house on fire from one days' HOT fire - a bed of 1600 degree coals resting right against the rear, bottom and side walls of the fireplace made those bricks easily hit temps of over 1,000 degrees...,worse yet, the RADIANT heat (invisible rays) from the hot coals radiated through the masonry and caught the wood on fire.

Now take a double wall insert - usually with firebrick inside and a heat transfer design which is engineered to throw heat forward and out of the insert.... the fire burns in a much smaller chamber(less fire), then the heat is held in by firebrick and two walls of steel with an air space...and the insert also has an airspace around it before the firebrick or brick of the fireplace - result is that the inside of the fireplace is highly unlikely to hit even 300 degrees (see BB post)....the other side of the brick is unlikely to hit even 150-200 degrees in even the worst case - especially when you consider that most masonry fireplace rear walls are located outside!

I have had many hearth stoves - 100% radiant units running 24/7 and the brick and hearth of the fireplace was nowhere near as hot as it was with a open fire.

There are a number of things which need checked, of course, in masonry fireplaces before a stove is installed. In my experience, the area above the lintel and to the side of the fireplace face are very important since newer fireplaces often have wood framing too close.

 

[elkimmeg]

Omission here is no dissagrement in modern chimney having double wall bricks being inferior to the yesteryear single wall bricks.

craig aptly points out the need for adequate masonry to combusiable materials such as construction grade lumder headers.
wW a can argue for ever, but I doubl we are arguing about this chimney ,case in point ,of being close to NFPA compliant

Another point missed here the guy doing the inspection is the same person with economic interest here. He is going to profit from your instasllation
I on the other hand, get nothing by telling you to get it right. A few post above this one, is an installation that the top plate did not even cover the flue.
This installation was suposidly done by a pro. My recomedation is to get a third party evaluation of your current conditions before proceeding forward
You came here for good sound advice well there you have it and I did not make a penny delivering it

Next cap should be from a reputiable company like extenda flue where care and pride in workmanship prevail, not some chimney sweep gouging an unsuspectant customer a few extra $$

 

[wg_bent]

Using your own point though is why an insert would be the best option. (if stove vs insert are the options) The insert shroud (outer layer of metal) doesn't get to 500 - 600 degrees. The whole point of the insert is to move as much of the heat out as possible. Yes some transmits, but no where near as much as in the case of a cast or steel stove in close proximity to the walls of the fireplace. I still think the ultimate solution here is the Homestead hearth mount with appropriate flooring in front to meet code.

Just for reference. With the 30-NC pretty much filling up my fireplace, four inches clearance back and sides and a block off plate above it the fireplace walls never were observed over 278 degrees with the stove running between five and six hundred and the pipe around 800.

You have to figure an insert with a shroud around it is going to heat'em up even less. Witness the fact that nobody can cook on their shrouds that I have ever heard of.

The big insert I used to have in there didn't get the shroud over 400 when it was cranking at near a grand.

excellent BB! Thanks for the experience that make my point.