Ok, so shoot me!!, I changed my mind. I'm getting a PE Summit Classic!!

[PAJerry]

All the arguing about GPH is really pointless. If you over-size your stove for the size of house/ heating needs and end up dampering the thing down and letting it smoulder to keep from roasting yourself out of the house, it is going to be dirty burning. If you try to burn wood that is not dry enough, it is going to be dirty burning. If your chimney does not draft well, it is going to be dirty burning. There are lots of ways to screw things up with any wood stove, no matter how well engineered it is.

I believe your choice of the Summit is good with the size of your home and where you live. It's a high quality stove and if you like the look, you can't go wrong. If you have a concern about GPH then make sure your wood is dry and chimney is set up correctly. Be vigilant about when and how you burn. Watch and learn everyday. Wood burning is really an art, and requires a lot of attention and experimentation to get right and what works for one stove may not be the way to go with another. If you get a stove you don't really like the looks of, you may be less inclined to take a strong interest in getting to know how best to use it. If you had an ugly car, would you spend much time maintaining it? Aesthetics mean more than we like to admit.

 

[begreen]

Would you buy the top rated mpg car when you really need a truck? Would you buy a Prius if you prefer a 2 door? Or a Civic hybrid in spite of the fact that the rear seat doesn't go down? I think there are justifications for either stove and many others. But ultimately it is the needs and wants of the purchaser that needs to be honored.

Gathering from the angst you went through a year ago I'm sure you can understand. If the Encore was $400 more, would have purchased it? You made a good choice for yourselves, but that doesn't negate another's. Let's not be too smug.

 

[Gunner]

When pleading a case for clean burning with BI members, then why are we not presenting PE GPH EPA numbers?

IT seems GPH numbers are quite important when the EPA list them Under 1 GHP, but not important in our buying decision?

Do we examine the EPA rated MPGs when purchasing a car? With today's fuel cost, MPGs become an important comparison tool?

With today emphasis to greener burning, you are telling us to ignore the EPA GPH numbers? Am I missing something here, or is there a double standard?

Real world. How it is operated? how dry is the wood? is it maintained? how old is the cat? Heck keeping a temp of 70 instead of 75-80 deg is going to make MUCH, MUCH more of a difference then 2-3 grams per hour. At the end of the year those 3 gph is an armload of splits, if that, it's been discussed here before. Test the same sub 1 gram stove after 2-3 years of use and see what you get, also been discussed here, hence why cats have a stricter standard to begin with.

Don't waste your time with the BI crazies.

 

[begreen]

It's interesting to note that owners of hybrids that also own other vehicles often start seeing big improvements in mileage with their non-hybrid as well. This is because is they start applying the techniques that the hybrid car teaches them for acheiving best mileage to their non-hybrid vehicles. This can be as much as 20% better mileage. Check out the mileage figures on www.greenhybrid.com.

This is an interesting analogy. In another thread I asked for a particulate meter to be built into the stack so that the stove could teach the operator how to burn at the optimum cleanliness. I think that would be as valuable as having a stove that puts out less gph under lab conditions, maybe more.

 

[Mr_Super-Hunky]

. If you get a stove you don't really like the looks of, you may be less inclined to take a strong interest in getting to know how best to use it. If you had an ugly car, would you spend much time maintaining it? Aesthetics mean more than we like to admit.

PAJerry:

You have made an excellent point that many of us underestimate. Having a degree in psychological marketing, I understand these things. I understand why john deere "green" is not only a song, but a patented color!. It has been proven that more people have purchased personal compact utility tractors for personal home/ranch use based on color more than anything else. If you compared other quality brand tractors on only performance (cycle times, lift capacity, specs, features. capabilities and so on), in many cases a Kubota will outperform other brands. It sometimes a little less expensive too. So why does'nt everybody buy one then?....answer.....its Orange!.

Many people have a picture in their head of a rustic/beautiful rural farm type setting and part of that *vision* contains a green john deere tractor. (not an orange asian import) even though the Kubota is an excellent product.

I was honest enough to inform everyone that aesthetics DO play a huge part in our descision but also recognized that it still is a *functional* appliance first. While I do realize that the Hearthstone Mansfield or the big blazeking would have "functionally" been our best choice, they did not meet the "aesthetics" portion of our criteria. The only "big-dogs" to put out the heat we are after but still meet the aesthetic criteria are the VC Defiant, PE Summit classic and the new Alderlea.
So in fact, or in a way, I too am buying "john deere green" of sorts!. But for me, thats okay because it will do everything I ask of it, it will perform solid and reliable for many years, and gosh darn it, it will look good too!!

Your very right Jerry, nobody likes to wax an ugly car!!

 

[Gunner]

I an not an engineer, and really bad at math but here are some rough #'s

Assuming a difference of 3 GHP between 2 different stoves over the heating season.

3 gph x 24 hrs in a day=72 grams/day
72 grams/day x 240 days of heating= 17 280grams/season
17 280grams = 38lbs of wood difference at the end of the year, big deal 1 firebox load.

Actually I suspect it would be even less, many of those hrs would be on the clean coaling stage with almost 0 GPH, plus the shoulder seasons when your not running 24/7.

But that 38lbs of wood still has nothing to do with how much heat is in the room, and how much went up the stack.

 

[Gooserider]

First off Mr. S-H, it's totally your call. Both stoves are good reputable brands, I think you'd be happy with either. But...

1. Per other comments, EPA numbers don't really matter, I've always considered all EPA-II level stoves to be close enough in value to be interchangeable, as all are a big improvement over the smoke dragons.

2. As has been discussed MANY times, Mfgr claims on heating ability, BTU outputs, volume heated, etc. are basically worthless as there are too many variables and unknowns in their numbers, including the unknown of how they calculate them.

3. Wood stoves in general are reliable enough that you are unlikely to need warrantee work on either model, so warrantee is fairly irrelevant.

4. Like heating capacity, burn times are also sufficiently fuzzy that Mfgr claims are not useful, and the reports that I see here on the hearth are not showing a clear difference between stoves in the same size class. I don't think we have enough data to reliably predict if the PE or the VC would burn longer if we sat them side by side burning the same sort of load, using the same definition for determining burn time, or even if there would be a consistent winner.

So that eliminates many of your claimed advantages for the PE...

We do know that the PE has better clearance requirements. Some of this is because of the difference in heating output - the VC is primarily a radiant heater, and puts out heat in all directions. The PE is more of a convection heater, and focuses it's heat output more out the front. The better clearances are nice, but my understanding of your setup suggests that the VC's radiant heat output might be better for you...

It has been said MANY times here, that the ONLY mfgr spec that is really useful in real world comparisons is firebox size, and that's of limited value. The VC has the bigger box, but not by a huge margin, and I don't know how much difference there is in "real world" useable space, though I'm inclined to think the VC's top load would be easier to stuff, just because you aren't having to go in sideways. However the PE can be loaded N-S, which is nearly as good, and has a pretty much square firebox, so it should be a reasonable comparison.

Cosmetics is a pure tossup, but you've said both are acceptable.

So it comes down to pay your money and pick your choice...

Gooserider

 

[webbie]

Buster, once again you fail to make your point. We ARE discounting GPH since the test labs and experts tell us to do so.....end of that story.

Again, not to say that "real world" performance does not matter, and I applaud any reduction in pollution measured in the actual operation of a stove over a 10 year period.

We do not have any statistical data except perhaps the old Crested Butte Study and Tiegs study on how quickly these stoves degrade (along with their combustion systems).

So we are talking about....as Hunk mentions, only psychology.

As far as what ends up in the atmosphere, consider that a lot of those particulates are in your pipe. After all, if you sweep your chimney and get one pound of soot, that is 454 grams of particulates.

Wood is not gasoline, and stoves are not internal combustion engines. If any manufacturer can show me that their particular models release less of the "bad guys" (NOT just particulates, but the dozens of other bad guys) into the air on the regular basis using cordwood and normal condition or operators, I will become their cheerleader.

But we should probably be talking about what we CAN control, that being the wood, chimney, operator and sizing of the stove. For the average burner, these are the keys to cleanliness.

And, Gunner, you are talking not about 38 pounds of wood, but 38 pounds of particulates! But given the average user, I suppose it would be closer to 10......but that was if assumptions about test vs. real world were true, which they are not.

Here is another thing to keep in mind...of course I am (as usual) partially talking out of the wrong orifices - EPA knows nothing about stoves! When they wanted to have a standard, they called in the experts from OUR field, like ferguson/andors, Tiegs, Stegmier and assorted others. These people hashed out the tests, the standards and the methods. It's pretty much spelled out in that doc I linked to. So the government agency is simply a consortium of people who are NOT in the government!

I'm not complaining about their methods - this is the way such things are done. With all it's defects, it has ended up bring us cleaner stoves.

And, believe it or not, we are not being pundits. Again, the EPA and Industry experts have been advising people NOT to shop by EPA numbers for almost 2 decades. All we are doing is agreeing. I suppose we will have some more inside outlook on this from Corie once he gets involved at Englander.

The best products usually win in the marketplace. A clean burning stove that need $500 worth of parts in the first 5 years will lose out to one that needs $50 in the first decade.....this is just like with cars. If your Prius did not warranty the batteries for 80 or 100K miles, you'd think twice about buying it.

Neither PE nor VC are...or have ever been clients of mine. I think they are both top-top-top of the line companies and products, but as they say "there is an ass for every seat" and the products are VERY different. If I had to purchase one of the two now it would be a PE - but ONLY because I have already had and burned many VC's. My Acclaim still rates as perhaps the best stove I have ever used.

 

[begreen]

Actually, this would make a pretty funny South Park episode. I can just see the smug clean burners up against the smoke dragons. Kenny decides he needs an OWB to heat the new clubhouse and starts a city-wide riot as he starts burning the OWB. The BI outsiders come in and can't get any respect, but end up siding with the cleaner burners. As war breaks out in SP, the smoke dragon neandrathals (sorry Hog), neo-nazis, hells angels etc. obliterate the BI's. The cleanburners all but eliminate each other warring over who's burning cleaner. Houses start getting torched in revenge. Kenny gets a misplaced log stuck up his butt and decides wood burning sucks. The gay teacher brings about peace by falling in love with one of the hells angels making it a threesome. The kids rig up a mighty come-a-long to extract the log, and Kenny can't sit down for month due to remaining splinters.

Think I can sell it to them?

 

[Mr_Super-Hunky]

The PE is more of a convection heater, and focuses it's heat output more out the front. The better clearances are nice, but my understanding of your setup suggests that the VC's radiant heat output might be better for you...

Gooserider

Dammit Kenny, you had to go screw it up again did'nt you!!



In all seriousness, maybe I could look at it like this Goose. If, as you say, both the Defiant and PE Summit have similar burn times (which members reviews say otherwise with the advantage going to the PE), but *if* they were the same, I would like to think that it may be an advantage to produce this duration of heat with and easier to manage and less parts consuming "non-cat" stove (like the PE), as opposed to the higher maint and cost Defiant cat.

If the ultimate bottom line is quantity and duration of heat output, why not go for the one that meets this criterea in the simplist, less expensive and time consuming way?.

This is pretty much what my descision is based on..(besides looks), but who knows, maybe in a few days, I'll change my mind back again and we can start all over again!!

BTW, everyone, this IS fun and I am learning a lot in the process as well!

 

[begreen]

Buster, has the EPA changed their testing methodology since 1991? Why can't it apply to the of modern stoves?

 

[BrotherBart]

For your reading pleasure may I present EPA Method 28. The Holy Grail of wood burning.

(broken link removed to http://epa.gov/ttn/emc/promgate/m-28.pdf)

They still do it the same way, sniff the chimney, they just tightened up what they would let come out of that chimney in Phase II.

Also it is the document that should put the 15 pound test charge myth to bed.

 

[Mo Heat]

Actually, this would make a pretty funny South Park episode. I can just see the smug clean burners up against the smoke dragons. Kenny decides he needs an OWB to heat the new clubhouse and starts a city-wide riot as he starts burning the OWB. The BI outsiders come in and can't get any respect, but end up siding with the cleaner burners. As war breaks out in SP, the smoke dragon neandrathals (sorry Hog), neo-nazis, hells angels etc. obliterate the BI's. The cleanburners all but eliminate each other warring over who's burning cleaner. Houses start getting torched in revenge. Kenny gets a misplaced log stuck up his butt and decides wood burning sucks. The gay teacher brings about peace by falling in love with one of the hells angels making it a threesome. The kids rig up a mighty come-a-long to extract the log, and Kenny can't sit down for month due to remaining splinters.

Think I can sell it to them?

Give 'em a call BG. I like the plot and those action sequences, even without the animation. A few scenes could just be a screen full of smoke after the OWB gets fired-up, with characters' voices wheezing and coughing. I love it. Doesn't the same one of those characters die in every single episode? The producers could easily take their pick of method using fire, smoke, or riotous violence. Maybe you could work in a biting irony with Hog starting up his ride and discovering it actually got rid of all the smoke in SP by simply running it through his big V-twin.

 

[webbie]

We do not have any statistical data except perhaps the old Crested Butte Study

quoting 1991 studies is their modus operandi.

That is plain bad science. EPA stoves were only in existence one year. First you tell us the GPH numbers mean nothing, then
you tells engineers fudge test results, and you quote an outdated study, that can not apply to modern stoves.

Scientific?? I think not

Exactly! Now we agree....

Just FYI, catalytic stoves came out in 1982, clean burning non-cats came out in 1984/1985 (Kent Tile Fire), and the Avalon stoves were my main line in 1986. The 1988 and 1990 dates were the final dates when stoves being sold had to meet qualification, but hundreds of thousands of clean stoves were in the market by then. As another for instance, the Defiant Encore was 1986 as I remember.

And although we can say they are tuned up, you will not see major differences in the designs today.

But, yes, I fully agree that there are no scientific studies. That is what I said - and then you come back and tell me that saying that is bad science? Please show me a study....I keep asking. When you do, we can discuss it. Until then, you have to use what is out there.

You continue to ask questions like "are you missing something?" and when they are answered with facts, you don't listen! That's your prerogative, but either come up with some evidence for your position, or else just take the answers for what they are worth! The thread will close soon unless some facts are presented. Answering the same query over and over gets tiring.

 

[webbie]

Begreen I'm not versed or qualified to answer your question.. I do know that the EPA is testing to phase II standards.

For more info I would have to deferrer to a a more educated person than I.

I do know engineering and scientific procedures. I understand the need to have a controlled environment.

Buster, you seem to live next to Elk. Are you guys buddies?

In fact, you have the same IP as Elk....

BUSTED....for sure.....tell me it's not true!

 

[elkimmeg]

Natururally while visiting my father Father's day I use his computer it no secret, Goose knows I'm Elk's son. I posted it this way so there would be no doubt

Buster is the familly labador retriver

 

[webbie]

I think it was a secret to many (most) of us! To me, for sure!

Personally, I don't like the smell of Elk and you (his son) pushing a brand in a manner which suggests more than them being just another casual user....and, worse yet, berating people who buy stoves other than that. It goes against the entire spirit of both Hearth.com and the forum...

Please try to help people as opposed to pushing an agenda. PM me if you have any questions regarding this policy.
This thread is closed.