Number of older stoves vs EPA in U.S.

[begreen]

I know a few people who had old stoves, then upgraded to something EPA hated it went back and will never buy a new stove.


Can’t blame ‘em. Throw a bunch of 30” logs in a massive firebox walk away do it again tomorrow.

We have them here too. It wouldn't surprise me if half of the stove still used are pre-EPA. Some folks here are used to loading up their stoves with poorly seasoned doug fir or alder and letting it smolder for a long burn. Meanwhile, the neighborhood chokes on the smoke from these smudge pots.

 

[Max W]

Pre EPA stoves should be using sub 20% wood as well. In this area from what I see it is a pretty even split between pre and post EPA stuff. Other areas are very different I am sure

Yes it would be best if all stoves burned sub 20% wood and also if owners burned pre epa stoves with enough heat and air to avoid smoldering. This year, like many others here, I went from gauging dryness by time, weight, sound and end checks to getting and correctly using a meter. I am fortunate to have the ability to be a couple of years ahead on wood. It’s clear some others aren’t so. It seems almost prohibitive for a firewood dealer, especially a small or medium one, to be able bring wood down to those sub 20 levels and be sufficiently compensated especially if the demand and price people are willing to pay won’t justify the investment. I was wondering if there are enough newer EPA stoves out there that dealers might be seeing a demand for sufficiently dried wood from those customers or if they might just see their main market for seasoned wood , however long, as those with older stoves that that can burn it.

Edit. As stoveliker points out region and wealth are factors.

 

[begreen]

Edit. As stoveliker points out region and wealth are factors.

+ habit and frugality.

 

[brenndatomu]

Keeping a clean chimney requires a lot of heat going up that chimney

Wrong...my Kuuma VF100 furnace runs 300-350* F internal flue temps most of the time (as low as 275*, almost never over 400*, and even that is only for a short time, if it happens at all) and the chimney gets cleaned once per year...which is more about inspection than cleaning, because there is very little to clean out...no smoke means no creosote.
It is pretty miserly on wood usage too...definitely NOT just a campfire in a steel box like what you are still running apparently...modern stove tech left those units behind in 1987 (and before in some cases...I know the first VF was built in the early 80's for example)

 

[kennyp2339]

I drank the koolaide a bit when it came to people with older stoves like fishers & all nighters claiming that they get more heat out of the old stock vs the newer cleaner stoves of today. In the back of my mind there was that small part of me that wanted to believe they were right, and indeed somehow the epa regs w/ todays stove design (circa 2012 and newer) somehow concentrated emissions over usable heat.
Fast forward to this heating season, made good friends with a new guy on our fire dept, been over to his house a bunch of times, he has a all nighter big moe, the stove is a beast compared to my BK princess pound of pound, and we def had a cold winter here, I've only burnt about 2 1/4 cords of wood so far, my buddy on the other hand is at least 4 cords in and ran out of wood, his house was warm, but man did he have to fill the beast, I'm sure if I ran my stove on its highest setting 24/7, I still couldnt keep up with his wood consumption, and thats possibly the difference here, we are maxed or capped on our top end due to how the air intakes are worked, were as his intakes are simple draft caps w/ a tiny door seal that doesnt really do much for air tightness in my opinion, so his top end would be much higher then mine, hence the thicker steel his stove is made out of to handle the higher temps.

 

[snobuilder]

One thing for sure is that anecdotal evidence is all that anyone will ever have.

 

[bholler]

One thing for sure is that anecdotal evidence is all that anyone will ever have.

Or the vast amounts of scientific evidence that also supports it.

 

[bholler]

And to be fair those of us who have burnt new and old stoves in the same home through the same chimney have empirical evidence to support what we are saying

 

[brenndatomu]

 

[bigealta]

And to be fair those of us who have burnt new and old stoves in the same home through the same chimney have empirical evidence to support what we are saying

That is almost my experience. I Replaced a jotul 3 (non epa) with a jotul f400 (epa). Same exact chimney set up in same house in exactly the same spot. Nothing changed except for direct replacement of the old jotul 3 for the f400. The f400 is the next size larger so it's not a perfect comparison but pretty close. The f400 keeps the house much warmer. We used to close off 2 bedroom doors to keep the heat in the living rooms with the jotul 3. They are never closed now as the living areas get too warm with the f400. My old jotul 3 could run away and crank the single wall magnetic thermometer to 850F+. Lots of heat loss up the chimney. The f400 almost never reads above 500.

There is No question i'm getting much more heat in my house from the f400 epa stove.

No smoke and mirrors, just some baffles on top that burn the gases that would have otherwise gone up the chimney unburnt. Add Secondary tubes and get more fire from the same amount of wood. It's Not to hard to understand. And painfully obvious when you see the secondary jets shooting flames like a gas BBQ grill.

 

[Ashful]

If I wasn't harvesting my own fuel I wouldn't see any savings in buying wood....fossil fuels are still cheaper than buying processed wood no matter the source.

You must be doing things seriously wrong.

Around here, mixed hardwoods are $225/cord = 20-25 million BTU's. Meanwhile, oil = $3.79/gal, or $561 to $702 for that same 20-25M BTU's. Short of throwing water onto the wood in an OWB with uninsulated lines, I'm not sure how you could close that gap, let alone flip the ratio.

Most of us have learned how to burn dry wood in stoves having efficiencies not far from our central heating systems, making the savings a slam dunk, even in cases where we may be keeping the house warmer for more hours per day than was ever our habit on central heating.

 

[qwee]

bigealta, how does the wood consumption compare between the two Jotuls you owned? I'm guessing because the non-EPA jotul 3 being smaller may be close to the bigger jotul EPA f400?​

 

[snobuilder]

You must be doing things seriously wrong.

Around here, mixed hardwoods are $225/cord = 20-25 million BTU's. Meanwhile, oil = $3.79/gal, or $561 to $702 for that same 20-25M BTU's. Short of throwing water onto the wood in an OWB with uninsulated lines, I'm not sure how you could close that gap, let alone flip the ratio.

Most of us have learned how to burn dry wood in stoves having efficiencies not far from our central heating systems, making the savings a slam dunk, even in cases where we may be keeping the house warmer for more hours per day than was ever our habit on central heating.

I burned up 2.5 cords of self supplied firewood so far this season heating my home 95%. I know what the eff I'm doing, bud.
Good split delivered hardwood is at least $300 a cord around here, if you want to trust its dryness. That is $750 . My Nat gas bill would be less than that and all my lazy ass would have to do is flip a thermostat.

 

[snobuilder]

I drank the koolaide a bit when it came to people with older stoves like fishers & all nighters claiming that they get more heat out of the old stock vs the newer cleaner stoves of today. In the back of my mind there was that small part of me that wanted to believe they were right, and indeed somehow the epa regs w/ todays stove design (circa 2012 and newer) somehow concentrated emissions over usable heat.
Fast forward to this heating season, made good friends with a new guy on our fire dept, been over to his house a bunch of times, he has a all nighter big moe, the stove is a beast compared to my BK princess pound of pound, and we def had a cold winter here, I've only burnt about 2 1/4 cords of wood so far, my buddy on the other hand is at least 4 cords in and ran out of wood, his house was warm, but man did he have to fill the beast, I'm sure if I ran my stove on its highest setting 24/7, I still couldnt keep up with his wood consumption, and thats possibly the difference here, we are maxed or capped on our top end due to how the air intakes are worked, were as his intakes are simple draft caps w/ a tiny door seal that doesnt really do much for air tightness in my opinion, so his top end would be much higher then mine, hence the thicker steel his stove is made out of to handle the higher temps.

Great anecdotal story.

 

[bholler]

I burned up 2.5 cords of self supplied firewood so far this season heating my home 95%. I know what the eff I'm doing, bud.
Good split delivered hardwood is at least $300 a cord around here, if you want to trust its dryness. That is $750 . My Nat gas bill would be less than that and all my lazy ass would have to do is flip a thermostat.

Many of us don't have the option of natural gas. I am not sure how burning 2.5 cords illustrates much of anything honestly. That could be allot or a little depending on your heating needs

 

[bigealta]

That is almost my experience. I Replaced a jotul 3 (non epa) with a jotul f400 (epa). Same exact chimney set up in same house in exactly the same spot. Nothing changed except for direct replacement of the old jotul 3 for the f400. The f400 is the next size larger so it's not a perfect comparison but pretty close. The f400 keeps the house much warmer. We used to close off 2 bedroom doors to keep the heat in the living rooms with the jotul 3. They are never closed now as the living areas get too warm with the f400. My old jotul 3 could run away and crank the single wall magnetic thermometer to 850F+. Lots of heat loss up the chimney. The f400 almost never reads above 500.

There is No question i'm getting much more heat in my house from the f400 epa stove.

bigealta, how does the wood consumption compare between the two Jotuls you owned? I'm guessing because the non-EPA jotul 3 being smaller may be close to the bigger jotul EPA f400?​

Not too different but hard to say. Was burning 15-16" splits in the 3 and now 18" in the f400. I would say fairly similar amount of wood burnt, but some years it was maple, some years locust, some years black walnut, many years mixed woods. It's been mostly oak these last few years.

 

[brenndatomu]

Good split delivered hardwood is at least $300 a cord around here, if you want to trust its dryness. That is $750

Really?! What are you buying, artisanal firewood from LLBean?!
For $750/cord I'll wash/kiln dry/buff/wax and lightly mist it with cedar oil right before custom stacking it!

 

[stoveliker]

I think he meant 2.5 cords for a total of $750 - to be offset against the natural gas bill.

 

[brenndatomu]

I think he meant 2.5 cords for a total of $750 - to be offset against the natural gas bill.

I bet you are right...

 

[begreen]

No natural gas here. The house was heated with a high-efficiency propane furnace. If it was still in the house our heating bill would be over $3000 with propane at around $4/gal. delivered here. Wood is at about $300 cord for doug fir and going up. Check Seattle craigslist for firewood prices. 2.5 cords will heat the place with a little assistance from the heat pump in milder weather, so add another $100 for electrons. That's way cheaper than propane. As age takes its toll we will be burning more electrons and less wood I suspect.

 

[JRHAWK9]

Wrong...my Kuuma VF100 furnace runs 300-350* F internal flue temps most of the time (as low as 275*, almost never over 400*, and even that is only for a short time, if it happens at all) and the chimney gets cleaned once per year...which is more about inspection than cleaning, because there is very little to clean out...no smoke means no creosote.
It is pretty miserly on wood usage too...definitely NOT just a campfire in a steel box like what you are still running apparently...modern stove tech left those units behind in 1987 (and before in some cases...I know the first VF was built in the early 80's for example)

That snobuilder guy is not worth the time.....he's one of those old timers who thinks he knows everything because he's been going about it a certain way his whole life and not open to change. It's quite sad actually.

 

[all night moe]

For $750/cord I'll wash/kiln dry/buff/wax and lightly mist it with cedar oil right before custom stacking it!

Just for the coat throat on that sale...

For 750 I'll do all that and stop back 3x a day to load the wood burning device.

 

[MongoMongoson]

I like my new EPA stove, but maybe I am something of an old timer myself. I ran pre-EPA stoves until two years ago. The new stove is great and makes a lot less creosote, but it sure doesn't give out the BTUs like the old one did.

I honestly don't care too much if a stove uses a little more wood. That is just more exercise for me. I am not out cutting down the tropical forest to heat my house. I get everything free, so it is scrounging stuff that people have already cut down or have decided needs to be cut down. If someone is going to cut it down, it might as well be me. It is better for me to release CO2 burning it than to have the wood rot and release CH4.

I guess what I am saying is I wish my Summit didn't have heat shields everywhere but the top and front. It is a wood stove. It is supposed to be hot.

 

[bholler]

I like my new EPA stove, but maybe I am something of an old timer myself. I ran pre-EPA stoves until two years ago. The new stove is great and makes a lot less creosote, but it sure doesn't give out the BTUs like the old one did.

I honestly don't care too much if a stove uses a little more wood. That is just more exercise for me. I am not out cutting down the tropical forest to heat my house. I get everything free, so it is scrounging stuff that people have already cut down or have decided needs to be cut down. If someone is going to cut it down, it might as well be me. It is better for me to release CO2 burning it than to have the wood rot and release CH4.

I guess what I am saying is I wish my Summit didn't have heat shields everywhere but the top and front. It is a wood stove. It is supposed to be hot.

That is absolutely a fair assessment. In general new stoves don't have the brute force of the old ones. That is why I use an old fisher in one of my shops. When I use it I want tons of heat as fast as possible without hurting the stove. And I don't really care how much wood it takes because I don't use it all that often. An old tank like that is great for that application. But in my house I want more even heat and more efficency

 

[Mt Bob]

This thread cracks me up, because of 1 poster. Other than that, lots of great info. If I ever had to go back to wood, I would never go back to a smoke dragon. Heck i still have fond memories of my Glacier Bay coal stove/insert,bank it with 90lbs of anthracite and it would burn for 3 days. But that is when I lved where it was readily accessible.