Not always the dealers fault

[mcmanus]

Of course it makes sense for the consumer to blame the provider if they have an agreed upon deal and the provider cannot execute on it. That's common sense - it isn't specific to pellet stoves.

The dealer has an obligation to "make good" on their commitment. Refunding the deposit months later is akin to welshing on the original deal. If the original terms cannot be met, in this case because a stove simply cannot be had, the deal could be altered to move the delivery date (a concession to the dealer) and adjust the cost (a concession to the consumer). There are other deals that could be made: free services, loaner models, etc.. That would give both parties a chance to agree to a deal they can make good on.

And yes, that costs the dealer money. No matter the industry, that goes along with missing your commitments - there is risk to every deal. Price it in - everybody else does. This is the essence of retail. Like some other young industries, this particular industry seems to be generally undercapitalized, suffers from poor forecasting, and amateurish lines of communication. Improving this will lower the risk and become a competitive advantage over time.

"Making it happen" is what we pay the middle man for. It isn't wrong for blaming the middle man when they can't make it happen.

I have no problem with dealers that would not sell stoves. I have no problem with dealers that sold stoves and were honest that they could not predict a delivery date. I do object to ones that sold them with delivery dates and cannot perform on that. It is not fair to tar all dealers with that brush, but lets not deny the accounts here of folks who were more than happy to take the consumer's money up front and worry about their end of the deal later.

Of course the dealer has a similar complaint with their upstream provider, but this thread is about the consumer. And the manufacturer will not deal with the consumer.

 

[sinnian]

This is not to say there have not been some communication problems between dealers, customers and manufacturers. Chit happens. If a customer is not happy, they should be able to get their deposit back and lesson learned......and, if they apologize to the customer, so much the better.

Agreed, but that is not how the this thread started. The thread started by blaming the customer.

 

[MCPO]

The industry is to blame and the dealer has to share the blame since he is a part of it too. Obviously communications between the factory and the dealer stinks and certainly demonstrates the right hand doesn`t know what the left hand is doing in this business.

The simple solution is to go to HD, Lowes, or your local hardware store and get an Englander. It`s available and at a fair price. Possibly not the prettiest or top of the line but it will throw the same heat . No big chunk of dough up front and no worries about who in what district will service it.

We should start calling this the silly analogy and dubious advice forum!

Repeat after me:
1. A customer does not have a "right" to buy a stove that does not exist. If demand exceeds supply (for whatever reason), then stoves can not be had. Each manufacturers has the right to make 1/4, 1/2 or 4x the stoves they made last year - PERIOD. Customers have the right to buy these.

2. All our problems will not be sold by buying a big box pellet stove, which has no in-house service, advice, installation and may be 10 years behind the time. Sure, I think the new Englanders will be up to date....but much of the stuff in the stores now is not current technology.

There are MANY pellets stoves, from englander to magnum to country flame (and dozens of other brands available)......

This is not to say there have not been some communication problems between dealers, customers and manufacturers. Chit happens. If a customer is not happy, they should be able to get their deposit back and lesson learned......and, if they apologize to the customer, so much the better.

Repeat after me Craig:
1.... A dealer also does not have the right to sell a stove that does not exist. Especially after taking a large deposit! The customer was not at fault. The industry dropped the ball , IMO because it is not matured.
2.....A good many problems encountered such as availability will in fact be solved when the big box stores put out their stoves between now and the next few weeks.
And yes, since the factory isn`t apologizing then the dealer is obligated. And not be blaming the consumer as the OP did for expecting a stove sometime this season.
Much of the stuff in stores now not current technology? Mind explaining that one?

 

[kbjelka]

About 0% of people "saw this coming" back at the end of last winter - March, for instance. As of that date, the industry was almost dead.....

There is no praise, there is no blame....if a consumer wants something, they have to put up with what it takes to get it. The dealers and manufacturers also have to do this.

I think one point stoveguy is getting at is that MONEY (buying something NOW) is not always the smartest and best decision when problems occur. Planning is essential for long term lower energy use, and those who cannot get a stove instantly might want to consider upgrading their windows, insulation and/or other aspects of their home......it might actually end up saving more money per dollar spent (and less work).

The "gotta have it now or the world is coming to an end" aspect of our consumer culture can sometimes go too far.

I showed up at the dealer in May and it was dead in the shop. Being a wood burner for years I saw it coming and even told the dealer I did not want to be that guy looking for a stove this fall. He assured me that supply was not a problem at that point. After two missed dates my current date is now 4 months later than promised and five months after my purchase. I went in there with realistic expectations and was given unrealistic dates twice. If anyone thinks that's being a picky consumer than they've lost touch with the concept of customer service. For their sake let's hope oil does not go down any further or they may have to learn how to provide some.

 

[webbie]

The consumer is to blame for the speculative part - not each individual consumer, but the "mob" (so to speak) that does not plan ahead and expects everything to always be available at the drop of a hat. I learned the hard way that I could not buy an electrical generator when the power went out for 4 days.
I would not blame any INDIVIDUAL customer. But, just as with our lack of a national energy policy, many of US have a lack of future planning and our own energy policies (for our house or life), the result being FEAR. Fear then causes less than perfect decision making, and all of a sudden a recreational luxury (which is largely what a wood or pellet stove is) becomes something we are gonna get angry about if we can't get it.

Actually, all in all, I don't blame ANYONE. Everything is working just perfectly. Oil has come down.....demand may soften a bit (according to some dealers it already has), and pellet prices may fall....who knows?

Again, I'm sorry about the communication errors....seems like 90% of it is one company (HHT), and dealers has no reason to believe this large company would make such a large mistake!

In the end, a pellet stove last year, a pellet stove this year or a pellet stove next year is not gonna make a big dif for most people. Sometimes I think we get obsessed with these things and can't rest until we spend our money. I like the forum member who mentioned they waited a year for their Harley! Absence makes the heart (and maybe the hearth) grow fonder.

 

[MCPO]

All we keep hearing on here is consumers that put there deposits down on June 1st. Ok thats good and all, but at that point most of these companies were well back ordered well through 09.

Problem seems to be that the customer was not told at the time that their unit would be back ordered until '09, but a month+ later. YET, the dealer, who IS the customers connection with the manufacturer still took the deposit.

In your little scenario to want to kick the consumer who is already down you have failed to realize that most did not order their stoves on a whim. But probably spent a considerable amount of time researching their needs, and then stoves that would fit those needs.

After listening to some of the whining dealers attempting to shift the blame to the customer makes me a bit angry. The customer had known for more than a year his fuel costs were escalating like a juggernaught and the industry as a whole sat on it`s a$$ doing nothing til the spring break arrived and orders came in. Most of these customers knew for months that they were going to buy into an alternative / supplement heating system. It was no big secret. Exactly what did the dealers and factories conclude after oil hit $4.00+ a gallon?

 

[JustWood]

All we keep hearing on here is consumers that put there deposits down on June 1st. Ok thats good and all, but at that point most of these companies were well back ordered well through 09.

Problem seems to be that the customer was not told at the time that their unit would be back ordered until '09, but a month+ later. YET, the dealer, who IS the customers connection with the manufacturer still took the deposit.

In your little scenario to want to kick the consumer who is already down you have failed to realize that most did not order their stoves on a whim. But probably spent a considerable amount of time researching their needs, and then stoves that would fit those needs.

After listening to some of the whining dealers attempting to shift the blame to the customer makes me a bit angry. The customer had known for more than a year his fuel costs were escalating like a juggernaught and the industry as a whole sat on it`s a$$ doing nothing til the spring break arrived and orders came in. Exactly what did the dealers and factories conclude after oil hit $4.00+ a gallon?

They concluded the same thing that happened when oil hit $2 and then $3. Not much ! No huge influx of orders. No business I know of is going to inventory millions of dollars of product with lackluster demand. Alot of business' have been caught with their pants down because of how fast oil went up. $100 to $147 in 7 months. Thats a 50% increase in a very short time. And I don't think anyone guessed it would have dropped $30+ in 1 month

 

[stoveguy2esw]

i think we can all agree that its an ugly situation. if memory serves me , harman was attempting to expand and slow sales along with increased debt due to the expansion may have been one of the reasons for their issues resulting in the hht buyout.

this season though expected to an extent was also expanded by huge jumps in fossil fuels and a declining dollar, this explosion pushed the market to its limits and beyond, and it did it early. dealers (though im guessing as we do not really work in that market) placed orders earlier because folks ordered them from them earlier. bear in mind also that harman was still being figured out, not to mention the VC/CFM mess (as both were documented in here and in other forums) this left a pretty sizable hole in the hearth industry and it couldnt have happened at a worse time.

the vacuum left by the above mentioned issues then taxed other companies to pick up the slack. st croix(which is an excellent stove line and a reasonable choice if in the harman market first then looking for another similar option) is now pushing back orders as well according to posters. we at ESW are running at full capacity but are currently 8 weeks or more behind ship times for orders for our retailers (this while running between 3 and 4 hundred units a day between both plants and also reducing our line by some of our units (the ones which take more time to produce)) until we are able to catch up with our orders as well. some of these units will be available by october but thats not the story in this thread.

adding to the dilemma , components such as motors and blowers are now taking longer to recieve as well, steel seems to be available at rates needed but the cost is up on that as well but we're buyin it as im sure everyone is due to demand.

what it all boils down too though , is that the industry as big as it is and diverse at it is, simply cannot handle a glut such as this year has brought about. blame can be spread over a wide area here's where i ask not to shoot the messenger for the message running down the list,

the oil thing and those involved; were fossil fuels not to have made the enormous jump in price that they did , the run on alternative fuel wouldnt have been so extreme

communication between dealers and manufacturers;if orders are coming in that fast more reasonable delivery dates should have been communicated(some brands though as documented had other issues which no doubt contributed to this) and to be fair to the dealers, when they placed orders they likely didnt expect the delays at the initial order placement) as for deposits , when you buy from a dealer he has to buy from the manufacturer or distributer , this costs him money, he must then recoup that plus his profit (he has to pay his bills and make a living as well, folks seem to forget that) and if he spends his money for a stove and the sale doesnt happen , he is out that unless he has another customer , so a deposit is not out of the ordinary.beating on a dealer for somthing that has been an accepted practice for years isnt fair if he isnt getting the information from the manufacturer, and if he does get the info and refunds the deposit in a timely manner he is doing all he can under the circumstances

the customer; the thundering herd so to speak, being confronted with heating bills twice or more what they faced last season, alternative fuels seemed a way to be able to afford to live through the winter and still be able to pay a morgage and have gas to get back and forth to work at 4 plus bucks a gallon. that said i can understand , i have a house as well and have to pay bills as well.

the government for allowing the possibility of these fuel cost explosions to happen in the first place.

folks, we're trying, as an industry we are trying as hard as we can, to get the products out to you before the snow flies. dealers are beating on manufacturers trying to get info on when product will be shipped , i know i take these calls daily. im sure my counterparts in the industry are doing the same. there is not a manufacturer in the industry that isnt running as hard as physically possible. dealers know this but they call anyway because they are looking out for you the customer, as well as trying to complete the transaction they started with you. to keep your buisness. if the unit is not going to be provided on time , see if you might find another option which will if be available if you need this heat source this season. if you can wait and not get fleeced by the oil man and you want what you picked out , be patient. but above all , be reasonable with the poor guy who got caught in the middle, its far more likely that he has been honest with you than dishonest.

 

[STOVEGUY11]

Bottom line is if you want a pellet stove, and the model you want is not available you have to wait for it. You may not see it for this heating season. If you got on the waiting list and were given a date for this year or early 09 thats great. We are starting to see the other big names starting to say the same thing. We can not make these stoves fast enough for the demand, and your not going to see your stove for 08. Yet agian as Craig said these are a luxory! Where was everyone last year buying pellet stoves when Harman had 20,000+ stoves in their wearhouse with no one placing orders. Oil was in the $2.50 range do the math out. Oil was no bargain last season either. Not just consumers have the "fear". So do the Makers of these stoves. Look at Harman. They had a huge season after Katrina. So they bumped up production and made tons of stoves. No one bought stoves the next season and they owed alot of people money. Thats when HHT stepped in. No other maker wants to risk losing the shirts off their backs. Look at CFM. Vermont Castings is the biggest selling wood stove in the U.S., yet they still had economical problems, from trying to expand. Its not just pellet stoves either. Your starting to see the back orders on wood stoves as well. Its a terrible situation. The industry certainly will learn from this season. We should hope its for the best. Everyone is trying to budget for this winter, either how much money for oil, or another heating source. So when these crucial things rise in price we do see the "Fear" of heating our homes and still be able to put food on the table.

 

[backpack09]

just my $.02.... Fuel oil in my part of new england is back to 3.60ish a gallon. Right where it was in feb/march. Everyone needs to chahill out.

 

[webbie]

Exactly!
Take a few deep breaths and decide where to go from here. We know everyone hates:
Stove dealers
Manufacturers who make things in China
Pellet makers who get the market price

and a whole long list of characters.......

Here is one truth which we all can perhaps look in the mirror about. I sold stoves from 1978 to 1998....during that time I did not really have even ONE "crisis" like this, having come in at the tail end of the first one. But that was a good thing. I almost NEVER has a problem customer.....hard to imagine with 20+ years and tens of millions of dollars....I would count the problems on one hand.

I think most stove customers WERE somewhat special....understanding, knowledgeable, committed, honest, hard working and patient. I'm certain that most are today also, but I WOULD NOT want to be a dealer now....despite the potential profits. People seem to take things way too seriously and will travel 100 miles to save $50....then ask the local dealer for service and advice. In other words, I think people have much higher standards. Whether or not that is a good thing is another story!

Bashing dealers is just like bashing Arabs, Oil Companies, Big Box stores, your boss, your ex or anything else........bad for your health and genetally useless...

 

[DiggerJim]

the government for allowing the possibility of these fuel cost explosions to happen in the first place.

The gov't didn't allow anything except the market to work it's magic - the same stuff that allows you to buy oranges in winter and anything you can afford (and lots of stuff you can't) whenever you want...versus gov't managed economies like the old Soviet Union which worked out so well or as North Korea is showing us now. Our own flirtations with gov't control of prices (anyone remember Nixon and wage & price controls?) were disastorous as well. Like it or not, inefficient as ours is, it still seems to get more stuff right than the competition.

 

[humpin iron]

Gio How did u ever retire YOU KNOW EVERYTHING!! If you knew oil was gonna go up 50% since Jan WHY DIDNT U TELL US.

2 yrs ago pellet stove companies shipped 285K in units, last yr they shipped 55k. Do the math everybody, how would you have planned for this year

PS GIO you never did answer my question: What is a fair % mark up, in your opinion??

 

[webbie]

OK, gonna close this one.
I think some folks are frustrated (at various things) and lashing out at the closest target.