Non Pressurized Storage...

[Pat53]

Exactly......do you think it would be worth it? I have some refractory brick, if I glued a couple to the refractory creating a ledge, then I can get a sheet of 3/8" steel, lay it on the brick ledge, and there is the baffle....I think it might improve efficiency , if nothing else, I should create a nice jet stream close to the HE.....G

I was thinking that a piece of that ceramic fiber board would work nice for a baffle also. Its rated for over 2,000F and comes in 1/2' - 2" thickness an its not too expensive either. Yeah, you would have to put something on the side walls of the refractory to support the baffle, but that shouldn't be a problem.

The only thing that might be a negative is that when opening the feed door the smoke would be directed more "in your face" than it already is. that's one thing I don't like about the Seton.... you always get smoked on when you open the feed door !

But yes, I definitely think it would improve efficiency, without a doubt. I was even thinking that when I replace my top skin next summer that I might try a 1 1/2" or 2" piece of that ceramic fiber board in place of the kaowool and sheet metal, providing its strong enough? If you used 2 - 24"X48" pieces on top instead of 1 - 48"X48" piece( for my 130 model) you could get easy access to the horizontal tubes, and probably the vertical ones too to some extent, by just removing the back panel.

Pat

 

[GENECOP]

Ok just moved the tank down the basement and started to bolt the framework together......

 

[GENECOP]

Here is the back, (long side) the corners are 3x3 angle, the field rails are 2" C Channel. The tank is 3/4" plywood, with 1/2" overlaid creating the dados to accept the C.

 

[GENECOP]

The room I am installing the tank in is the water main corner of the basement...the pervious owner built a small darkroom, so the space is tight, but the boiler room with my heating manifold is right next to the tank, so piping should be pretty easy....

 

[GENECOP]

The tank will be a corner install, one wall is an exterior foundation, the other is standard 2x4 wall with the boiler room on the other side.. I cleaned the foundation wall and veneered 2-1/2" of rigid foam to it, reflective side facing in....I then glued 2" of the same foam to the 2x4 wall, the tank will get another 1-1/2" of foam glued to it before I slide it back in place.....this will give me 3-4" of rigid foam insulation for those two inside tank elevations.....The base of the tank has 1-1/2" of Foam sandwiched between plywood. The other two elevations of the tank will be exposed and accessible, I will insulate them as much as I want with the room size being the limiting factor...the top, (cover) will have about 4" of foam and maybe a piece of concrete on top....

 

[GENECOP]

Got the tank slid into place today......before sliding it back we wrapped the side and back wall in another layer of 1-1/2" rigid foam.....now the total for the corner walls Is 4-1/2" of insulation....there is a little uneven spacing back there, the existing wall was out of plumb, so before we finish we will stuff some reg fiberglass mat back there.....

 

[GENECOP]

Got most of the concrete set today

 

[GENECOP]

Hard to tell because it still looks like hardie board, the right side shows the end cut of the concrete, the last piece top right side is on my pour tables, it will have some 1/2" pex running through it, kind of like radiant floor on the side of my tank....that one loop will preheat my domestic tank so the nyle will have less to do. The copper HX will be stacked, one set on bottom , one set on top....more to come.

 

[GENECOP]

Just poured the top right panel , here is the form, 1/2" pex running through.....this will just be a preheat for my domestic, it should let the Nyle recover a bit faster......Not the primary function of the storage tank, but I thought , why not get a little something extra out of one of the concrete wall panels....

 

[GENECOP]

This will fill in the open space

 

[maple1]

I think I would have just stuffed the pex right inside the enclosure with the water. It doesn't really transfer the heat that great. I have 2-100' rolls of 1/2" pex, inside my storage enclosure. Most of it spread out right on top of the bare storage tanks. Then insulation over top. With intermittent use, it likely provides most of our hot water. But with heavy use, like laundry day, the water coming out of it goes pretty well cold after a while.

Certainly is an interesting tank - appreciate the progress shots.

 

[GENECOP]

The tank will be loaded with copper HX ......that few feet of pex in the concrete is just a preheat.....I am keeping all my DHW confined to one 60+ - gallon tank that is heated by the Nyle Geyser...The NG comes preset at 125, in the summer our needs where met, no problem, as we got into the fall and early winter, we noticed since the water temp coming in was entering colder, the NG was having a more difficult time recovering, one option would have been to raise the NG temp 5 Deg. I thought it might be interesting to run the feed for the DHW tank throught that pex simply preheating the water entering, easing the recovery of the NG.......We are closing in on having things set up the way we want, The Greenwood will take care of Heating only, ( with the oil backup ) about 500 Gallons of storage. The DHW will be handled by the Nyle 365 days a year.....

 

[Bob Rohr]

reverse return piping on those copper HX would buy you some more performance. Supply one header, return from the opposite end of the other side. With short, low pressure drop "rungs" the closest to the tees will be doing the heavy lifting, the distal ones contributing much less. Unless maybe you have a diverter system I'm not seeing.

Just move two caps from the headers to the tee branch.

 

[GENECOP]

reverse return piping on those copper HX would buy you some more performance. Supply one header, return from the opposite end of the other side. With short, low pressure drop "rungs" the closest to the tees will be doing the heavy lifting, the distal ones contributing much less. Unless maybe you have a diverter system I'm not seeing.

Just move two caps from the headers to the tee branch.

Thanks Bob, I actually have three more levels to add, after I get it built I will post a photo, and hopefully get it right...thanks again....

 

[Bob Rohr]

Thanks Bob, I actually have three more levels to add, after I get it built I will post a photo, and hopefully get it right...thanks again....

A simple example of reverse return with a pair of "harp" style solar collectors.

Now in a perfect hydronic world the header size would step up and down also, but that is not so practical to build.

 

[GENECOP]

Bob, does it look like I am on the right track?

 

[GENECOP]

Feed and return both on the left side, that's about all I was thinking about for Approx 450 gallons of water....this setup would put the heat into the tank, placed on the bottom. For pulling the heat off and right into my radiant manifold, I was thinking about a similar 3 level unit placed in the top half of the tank....

 

[GENECOP]

Side view

 

[Bob Rohr]

Here is what reverse return would look like.

So basically the first, upper level that is supplied, from the left, is the last to return. This "hydraulically" assures ever cross over "rung" receives the same amount of flow. 1st in last out.

Basically turning every flow path into the identical length, so every rung does the same amount of work, so to speak.

I'm assuming those vertical 1-1/4 pieces are just spacers?

Typically with a plate style HX you have two pumped flows, so you want counter flow, the hot supply sees the cold return from the A to B side.

In a tank of still water you will have stratification, so the upper layer will be in the hottest zone. Feeding the cold return from your system in that direction would yield the highest heat exchange.

Maybe Tom will add to this he specializes in coils in tanks.

 

[GENECOP]

I see the difference, I would be adding two verticle risers basically introducing flow equally along the entire right side ( all levels) then pressure across and out the back left side all levels.....the way I laid it out the main 1" pipes got filled one section at a time, turning and continuing while pushing across.....your diagram fills all right side legs at the same time, then returns all equally.....if the difference will be significant In your opinion, I will rework it....also do you think I have enough surface area for 450 gallons....the stack is about 26" wide x 32" ......1" mains, 1/2" cross rails....Yes those small verticles are just spacers....

 

[GENECOP]

Maybe I can use this setup for the top transfer, and build the alternate layout new for the lower.....typically are both HX , top and bottom the same ......Since one HX will put the heat into the tank, and the other will pull the heat out....For some reason I am thinking the HX that charges the tank should have more coverage than the top that feeds the heating manifold....

 

[Bob Rohr]

It may not be worth the time and trouble to change the piping, hard to put a number on the performance difference. Just thinking for the next stack you might consider RR piping.

Heat exchange is mostly about surface area. The more of the surface you expose to the fluid, the more heat transfer. Accordingly the hotter the average temperature is across the entire surface, the higher the rate of heat exchange.

With a long series loop, most of the work is done at the front end, highest temperature, as the loop cools, less transfer.

Pressure drop is another part of the puzzle, best to use multiple short tubes, compared to a long series loop. With your large header size and very short rungs, pumping requirements should be acceptable.

It would be interesting to watch that working with an infrared camera to see where and how it is transferring energy. I've done that with solar collectors and radiators to see where the energy is going. Some solar guys use IR cameras to pick out bad solar evac tubes.

Install a flowmeter on the HX when you pipe it. Measure the delta T as it runs and you can calculate the amount of energy you are exchanging.

A couple contractor friends in Brooklyn do plumbing for Mikvahs. They have come up with a formula for building these HX coils that go under the stairs of the bath. Recording data as the bath warms they can confirm their calculations and design. The goal is to raise the water temperature from ambient room temperature to bathing temperature in under 20 minutes! Somewhere around a 40 gpm flow rate.

Notice the multiple header loops. They have these plated after assembling and pressure testing.

photo credit: Moses Fishman, NY

 

[GENECOP]

Alright at it again, hope to have the storage online in another week or two..I finished installing the concrete panels, did the coating on three sides and the bottom. Decided to go with a 1" coil for the bottom heat in exchanger.

 

[GENECOP]

Error photo

 

[GENECOP]