Newbie to Pellets stoves, regretting right now buying one

[jeff5347]

Ok Checkthisout.
I zip tied a fan to the railings. It is a comfort features box fan fb50-a1. I cant find a manual and i dont have it as i have had the fan forever. I have the fan on low because med and hi haul a@@ when blowing. I could start a tornado with this thing. We'll see how it goes.... thanks. Now if i have this fan here would having my 3 vents in the floor suck into the basement cause a circulation. Me not being a HVAc guy i think this would cause air to start circulating until the whole house was at a reasaonablly same level of temp from upstairs and downstairs, albiet DS would be a bit warmer due to the stove being there

 

[checkthisout]

Two things you have to produce enough BTU's to over come the heat loss of the area you are heating and then get the heat distributed after producing it.

Second can we see a picture looking up the stairs from the basement and down the stairs from the first floor?

Frequently there is an air block that sets up in most stairways.

Hey Smokey, tell me more about this air block in the stairway.

Much obliged

The air going up is choked off (obviously not completely) by the air going down.

And how is this fixed/remedied/worked around?

Chainsawing much of the second floor out although I believe such a modification would affect the functionality of the house.

On the other hand, central heating systems with multiple vents (at least one per room) were developed to combat the difficulties of trying to heat a dwelling from a monovent heat source. We need to mimic this "optimum" as best as possible.

In this case we need better circulation. If the OP is not against cutting more holes in his ceiling/floor, a vent like DON222 has to pipe heat directly up to the second floor would be the best solution.

Were not to that point yet though.

 

[RKS130]

Not sure Madame Defarge will go along with either the chainsaw or the sawzall. Our new stove is positioned directly opposite the bottom of the stairs. In the hallway above is a ceiling fan which, in accord with advice received here, is blowing downward to move cold air down so hot air can rise. The house is small - 1500 sq. ft. livable space. But as colder weather arrives Madame Defarge is starting to talk abut firing up the oil burner "just to take the chill off". I agree we might need to if we have a week or so in the teens, but not now with night temps only in the high 20's, low 30's.

I had wanted a bigger stove but was overruled on aesthetic grounds.

 

[Jason]

i did have that problem in my house too. air block in my stairs from the basement couldnt heat first level. the only way i could fixed it is to make a 2 path for the air like the others said. at the end of my house(the coldest place) where the stove is at the other end in the basement, i had a duck fan in the register to pull cold air in the basement and then hot air was rising from the stair an register where the stove is. i have a bungalow 2400sq feet. stove is under the living room and duct fan is in the kitchen other end of the house.

 

[jeff5347]

CTO, no im not opposed to more vents. I have the jigsaw waiting and ready. If you look at the pics and see the one that goes down the hallway... our room is all the way down to the right, my daughters all the way down to the left. In the middle of the hallway on the left is the bathroom and on the right my sons room. The problem with that is on the right side those rooms sit on top of my garage... yea the floor gets a nice cooing from the garage, good for summer but bad right now. The one think is his room also sits above the furnace room a bit so i could have a vent from above the furnace room and leave that door open as it does get pretty nice in there but im afraid of fumes getting in his room. My room i dont care i can cover up when i go to sleep. The daughters room is over the laundry room and i could do another vent but i am getting very far removed from the stove,... or would cutting in a vent give another source of ventalation and actually help circulate all the cold air to the bottom and give the warm air a better chance to rise? Would putting another vent in the living room and kitchen be to much (would then have 2 vents each in the LR and kitchen)?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Two things you have to produce enough BTU's to over come the heat loss of the area you are heating and then get the heat distributed after producing it.

Second can we see a picture looking up the stairs from the basement and down the stairs from the first floor?

Frequently there is an air block that sets up in most stairways.

Hey Smokey, tell me more about this air block in the stairway.

Much obliged

The air going up is choked off (obviously not completely) by the air going down.

Yes and the heat that is being transfered is doing so by conduction and a very slight amount of convection.

If you can get even a small amount of the cold air such that it starts down the stars in a larger volume the block can be broken and some stronger circulation established, that is the reason for the cardboard experiment.

Since there are some existing vents those furthest from the stairwell should be used to allow cold air into the basement, I want the stairwell to become the primary hot air path but because of the size of the opening and its location (floor level) it needs a bit of an assist since no matter what gets done the cold air is always going to be at floor level.

The convection fan on the stove plays a vital role here and if it can't move enough air, well let's just say there is a huge difference between 140 CFM on a stove and 800 to 2000 CFM on a furnace.

But heating a multistory house can be done even with a stove if you can get nature to assist, convection can move a lot of air given a chance.



Jeff,

I was going to contact one of the dealers on here if I couldn't find information on the fan, sometimes that information is on the blower plate. If we have the information on that plate through the wonders of the net we can usually find a lot more about the blower.

One other thing the only fan I run here is the convection fan on the stove and it is running in what the forced air folks would call CAC (Continuous Air Circulation) mode on high (smaller air flow rate than a furnace compensation).

 

[jeff5347]

Jason i have a register at the end of the hallway whcih is also at the other end of where the stove is. I have a entree fan that i got from HD but the blade is already breaking. I was wondering on the speedd of the duct fan you have. Is it slow or is the fan really spinning. Wondering so when i bring this one back i get either a nice slow one or one that has more meat to it to suck the air down. I can say without a fan i can feel the cold air falling down the vent so at least on on the right path. Now just need to suck it out to help it really circulate


Smokey, so basically my stairway is to big in essence not getting a vacuum effect. Am i correct in that thinking, And blocking some of it off would make the stair way "smaller" being able to make a suction. Are you saying i should take my box fan and put it ath the bottom of the stairs and suck the cold air down. I apologize but i got lost on the CAC. I get it recirculates but in how i could acheive this. I need the dumby version of speak.. hahahahah

 

[Jason]

Jason i have a register at the end of the hallway whcih is also at the other end of where the stove is. I have a entree fan that i got from HD but the blade is already breaking. I was wondering on the speedd of the duct fan you have. Is it slow or is the fan really spinning. Wondering so when i bring this one back i get either a nice slow one or one that has more meat to it to suck the air down. I can say without a fan i can feel the cold air falling down the vent so at least on on the right path. Now just need to suck it out to help it really circulate


Smokey, so basically my stairway is to big in essence not getting a vacuum effect. Am i correct in that thinking, And blocking some of it off would make the stair way "smaller" being able to make a suction. Are you saying i should take my box fan and put it ath the bottom of the stairs and suck the cold air down. I apologize but i got lost on the CAC. I get it recirculates but in how i could acheive this. I need the dumby version of speak.. hahahahah

only have one speed and it really spins for the size of it. its a little bit noisy. the size is about 4 to 5 inch round about 6 inch long. also have rectangular duct that screwed in the register hole in the basement and then hooked up the duct fan.

also have a open rail for the stairway on the first floor had to block it with carton board also like smokeythebear said.

 

[Jason]

Jason i have a register at the end of the hallway whcih is also at the other end of where the stove is. I have a entree fan that i got from HD but the blade is already breaking. I was wondering on the speedd of the duct fan you have. Is it slow or is the fan really spinning. Wondering so when i bring this one back i get either a nice slow one or one that has more meat to it to suck the air down. I can say without a fan i can feel the cold air falling down the vent so at least on on the right path. Now just need to suck it out to help it really circulate


Smokey, so basically my stairway is to big in essence not getting a vacuum effect. Am i correct in that thinking, And blocking some of it off would make the stair way "smaller" being able to make a suction. Are you saying i should take my box fan and put it ath the bottom of the stairs and suck the cold air down. I apologize but i got lost on the CAC. I get it recirculates but in how i could acheive this. I need the dumby version of speak.. hahahahah

only have one speed and it really spins for the size of it. its a little bit noisy. the size is about 4 to 5 inch round about 6 inch long. also have rectangular duct that screwed in the register hole in the basement and then hooked up the duct fan.

also have a open rail for the stairway on the first floor had to block it with carton board also like smokeythebear said, so only hot air rise by itself from the stairs

sorry for the double post dont know what happen here

 

[jeff5347]

Jason , where did you get it from. Do you have a link or pic of it or a brand and part #?


With the ducting you state so you have the register in the floor then a peice of sheetmetal ducting... then the fan is attached the bottom of this sort of sealing the fan to the hole and pulling from every sq inch of the register hole? correct? Im headed to HD in a few hours so im gonna switch this one for that or something similar. Did you notice a defference with open rail stair way blocked with the cardboard?

 

[Jason]

Jason , where did you get it from. Do you have a link or pic of it or a brand and part #?


With the ducting you state so you have the register in the floor then a peice of sheetmetal ducting... then the fan is attached the bottom of this sort of sealing the fan to the hole and pulling from every sq inch of the register hole? correct? Im headed to HD in a few hours so im gonna switch this one for that or something similar. Did you notice a defference with open rail stair way blocked with the cardboard?

i get it from a hardware store.
here`s the link (broken link removed to http://www.homehardware.ca/en/cat/search/_/N-2pqfZ67l/Ne-67n/Ntk-All_EN?Ntt=duct+fan)

and this is the one in the hole (broken link removed to http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index.htm/Heating-Ventilation-Cooling-Home-Comfort/Ventilation/Duct-Pipe/Galvanized/BOOT-ANGLE-DUCT-3X10X5/_/N-2pqfZ67l/Ne-67n/No-72/Ntk-All_EN/R-I5512091?Ntt=duct&Num=0)

and yes there was a big different blocking the rail stair. my stair is located in the middle of the house.

i did alot of test to found out where the cold air was going and this is the best way so far. did try the fan pushing air upstair and downstair but was making to much draft. now with this setup i can feel the warm air rising from the stair by looking down from the rail.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Jason i have a register at the end of the hallway whcih is also at the other end of where the stove is. I have a entree fan that i got from HD but the blade is already breaking. I was wondering on the speedd of the duct fan you have. Is it slow or is the fan really spinning. Wondering so when i bring this one back i get either a nice slow one or one that has more meat to it to suck the air down. I can say without a fan i can feel the cold air falling down the vent so at least on on the right path. Now just need to suck it out to help it really circulate


Smokey, so basically my stairway is to big in essence not getting a vacuum effect. Am i correct in that thinking, And blocking some of it off would make the stair way "smaller" being able to make a suction. Are you saying i should take my box fan and put it ath the bottom of the stairs and suck the cold air down. I apologize but i got lost on the CAC. I get it recirculates but in how i could acheive this. I need the dumby version of speak.. hahahahah

You can start by turning off the ceiling fan, the cardboard barrier I told you about is going to help split the air into hot and cold paths at the stairs.

You get the continuous air circulation via the convection loops and the convection fan moving as much air through the stove as it can. The convection loops will actually move more air than the blower will but you need all of the heat the stove produces at any setting to be removed by the convection blower and dumped into the convection air path, the fact that the convection blower actually helps establish the convection loop is a huge plus.

Even after we get the air moving and heated we still have to make certain that the heat it carries doesn't get swallowed by your home's heat losses. Which we have only a somewhat educated but non the less a WAG at.

Generate the heat, distribute the heat, don't lose the heat.

You have part one down pat, we are working on part two, part three may or may not be needed (my bet is it would likely help and perhaps a lot, but I don't have anything to back that up with except having done more than a little house work over the decades.

Now I have other things to do that will take me away from the computer.

 

[jeff5347]

ok cool that gives me an idea what to look for when i get to HD. Awesome guys thanks for the help. Keep it coming i can already see my house warming up in my mind...

 

[Jason]

ok cool that gives me an idea what to look for when i get to HD. Awesome guys thanks for the help. Keep it coming i can already see my house warming up in my mind...

before bying anything make sure to mesure your register hole size so that duck will fit in
if you by that fan you will need a extention male connector cause that fan come only with 3 wire. just hook up the white and black there is a green one but that one is for hooking it up to a furnace you wont need that one.

another thing when youll hooked up the duct fan it wont fit properly cause youll have to push air downstair the pipe connector is made so the fan push up but you want to push down so youll have two female connector (you will figure it out when youll see it) so youll have to ben the egde of one a little bit to fit it in.

 

[MarkF48]

I posted a link a while back in this thread to a fan that goes over the vent to force air flow. This from Home Depot, so if it was bought and didn't work out a return would be easy. I attached an image to the post this time.

(broken link removed to http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100031683&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=100031683&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D26X-_-100031683&locStoreNum=2624)

The air flow in my case is from the kitchen pushed to the upstairs room with the fan. From the upstairs room the air moves to a hallway and then returns to the kitchen via the stairs.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

where is the regular heatng system (Furnace) located ??

If the air handler is in the basement, open the cold air return and let the air handler suck that heat from the basement and shove it up to the living quarters.

If this is not an option then I am for installing the stove upstairs.

After having pellet stoves for over 20 years I have concluded that multiple smaller stoves located about the house are the best way to heat the home.

We have 3 stoves in a 2400 sq ft ranch style house. Depending on the outside temp it can be a 1, 2 or 3 stove show.

When the outside temps are in the 50's, one little stove is plenty. When the temps drop into the 40's its a one larger stove show and when it gets into the low 30's to about 20 its a 2 stove show.

If it gets below 20 then we let the Quadrafire automatic pick up any slack to keep the house cozy.

You have got to get that air to exchange from down to up and then back again.

Snowy

 

[nmerkley]

I agree with Snowy. I currently have my stove in the lower level, granted I have 600 sq ft of living quarters down stairs and 640 sq ft upstairs, not the Taj Ma Hall(?), but I close all supply register vents in the basement, except the one over the top of the stove. I have a cold air return in the upstairs hallway and one in about the center of the basement. I wired my circulation fan from my furnace to the heat circuit on the Thermostat. (wired a second thermostat near waterlines in case pellet stove fails it will kick on the gas furnace.) My thermostat is upstairs and so when it gets cooler than what I have the Tstat set for the it kicks on the fan and starts to bring the warm air upstairs. I can keep my up and downstairs with in 4-5 degrees this way, which I prefer to sleep in cooler temperature. Oh yeah, kitchen, bath, living room DS and 2 Bedrooms, Bath, and Hobby room upstairs. If I would decide to run my fan all the time I can keep the two levels within 1-2 degrees.

 

[jeff5347]

Snowy, if you look at the pics i posted you will see the downstairs and there is a door with a criss cross diamond pattern. That door lead to my garage but there is a door to the left of it, that is the furnace room.

"If the air handler is in the basement, open the cold air return and let the air handler suck that heat from the basement and shove it up to the living quarters." Im not sure i know what this is or where it would be....I told my wife if worse comes to worse we move it upstairs or get a nice little one to aid in the bottom one.

Mark i will look for this when i get to home depot. I need one to push air to the basement and i think i might do the same for the kitchen as well.


Oh on i side note i picked these up yesterday (green /yellow bag) to see how these are
(broken link removed to http://www.valfei.com/heating/premium-wood-pellets.aspx?lang=2)

 

[Jason]

I agree with Snowy. I currently have my stove in the lower level, granted I have 600 sq ft of living quarters down stairs and 640 sq ft upstairs, not the Taj Ma Hall(?), but I close all supply register vents in the basement, except the one over the top of the stove. I have a cold air return in the upstairs hallway and one in about the center of the basement. I wired my circulation fan from my furnace to the heat circuit on the Thermostat. (wired a second thermostat near waterlines in case pellet stove fails it will kick on the gas furnace.) My thermostat is upstairs and so when it gets cooler than what I have the Tstat set for the it kicks on the fan and starts to bring the warm air upstairs. I can keep my up and downstairs with in 4-5 degrees this way, which I prefer to sleep in cooler temperature. Oh yeah, kitchen, bath, living room DS and 2 Bedrooms, Bath, and Hobby room upstairs. If I would decide to run my fan all the time I can keep the two levels within 1-2 degrees.

how do you hooked up a fan to a tstat? cause mine run 24/7

 

[nmerkley]

I am talking about my Furnace fan and the thermostat that controls my A/C and Furnace. Your furnace has a common and than different terminals for either heat, fan, A/C, ..... some will have less some more. What your thermostat does is close the circuit between common and which ever function you want on. Now I am only familiar with my setup, others may be different. But I disconnected the Heat terminal from my Thermostat and jumpered over from the Fan terminal. That way whether I turn the fan on from the tstat or the heat drops below the set point the furnace fan will run. Than I went to the furnace and pulled a second lead from the common and one from the heat terminal to a cheap slide type thermostat so that if the pellet stove fails Or I am not around to refill it, or for what ever reason the gas furnace will kick on. I leave it set at 55F.

 

[DexterDay]

Blowing the Cold air down the steps will yield better results than blowing the warm air up. Colder air is more dense and will "find" the warm air easier. Then the warm air downstairs will replace the cold air being fed downstairs, with warm air coming up the stairway. It will also slightly pressurize the basement and force warm air through the vents.

The vent above your stove should be looked at also. Most through the floor vents have to be at least 10 ft away from the stove. For fire reasons. Also may want to look into fusible link floor vents. As most towns codes dont allow natural draft vents (for fire safety reasons).

I would try to reverse your airflow that you have going now. Heating my home, just using the woodstove in the basement is possible. But blowing the warm air up, does not work nowhere near as well as blowong cold air down.

Ask that question in the "Hearth Room" here, where many people heat with woodstoves in the basement. Cold air will replace warm air, faster than warm to cold. Or just roam through the numerous airflow threads there.

Just a thought. As your results may not be tremendously greater. But it will improve.

 

[Jason]

I am talking about my Furnace fan and the thermostat that controls my A/C and Furnace. Your furnace has a common and than different terminals for either heat, fan, A/C, ..... some will have less some more. What your thermostat does is close the circuit between common and which ever function you want on. Now I am only familiar with my setup, others may be different. But I disconnected the Heat terminal from my Thermostat and jumpered over from the Fan terminal. That way whether I turn the fan on from the tstat or the heat drops below the set point the furnace fan will run. Than I went to the furnace and pulled a second lead from the common and one from the heat terminal to a cheap slide type thermostat so that if the pellet stove fails Or I am not around to refill it, or for what ever reason the gas furnace will kick on. I leave it set at 55F.

ok i got a different setup is a duct fan plug into the wall outlet

 

[Snowy Rivers]

The air handler is the furnace. (Central heating system)

Snoop around the furnace, there should be a way to open a door or panel that covers the filter.

If you open up the filter panel this will allow the fan to suck in the warm air from the basement and shove it out through the duct work and into the house.

If you cover the return air vents wih a rug or if they are in a wall, use a temporary cardboard cover.

This will force the air return to use the stair well and right back down to the basement and be heated.

Your furnace should have a way to turn on just the fan without running the Heating portion (Burner)

This may be on the T Stat or a siwtch on the furnace itself.

My unit has a combination switch that allows me to use the fans only with a switch on the Stat.

If you can use your furnace fan to move the warm air, your good to go.

These fans can move a huge amount of air, as compared to the little fans in the Pellet stove itself.

Once you get the basement toasty just a short time with the fans on should get the house comfy.

With the return vents closed off the air will be forced to use the stairwell and it will just do just that.

If you want to see whats going on, just tie up some 6 inch long strips of single thickness toilet paper (about 1/3 inch wide) using some thread and a thumb tack.

Do this in the stair well. These will act just like a wind sock at the airport and you can then see whats going on.

I really dont think this is going to be a real issue if you can get the air handler to move the air for you.

Having several small rooms can be a problem to get the air to flow naturally.

Good luck and keep us posted

OH, if you run into any issues, Post a piccy of the furnace room and furnace so we can see wasssup there.

Snowy

 

[MarkF48]

There are a few posts here suggesting use of the air handling system of the furnace. From some of the images Jeff posted I'm inclined to think he may have a hot water baseboard heating system with a boiler that also does hot water, not forced hot air. Jeff can probably confirm this.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Yep that is a good ole bog standard hydronic heating unit that Jeff has, no air moving system at all.

Jeff,

According to a resident stove expert, stove dealer, and seller of the model stove you have that 812-4900 blower is a 160 CFM unit and if we can get things going it will take more than 119.3 minutes to pull all the air in the house through it.

Now here comes another question what are your feelings on putting an OAK on that stove? The combustion blower running on high is going to remove a few tens of cubic feet per minute (some bog standard units at full bore do 60-70 CFM one I'm aware of the Bella does 100 CFM) from the house.