Newbie seeks advice replacing a fireplace insert with a wood stove

[Stanford41d]

Here is a photo of my little house to illustrate the height of the chimney. It isn't much of place, but it's on a two acre lot across the road from the lake in somewhat of a resort community. I have also included a photo I snapped from the roof looking down into the liner. Do you think it looks dirty enough to warrant cleaning?

 

[begreen]

That looks like a short chimney, maybe 11ft? If that is correct it will be a problem with many modern stoves. Most often they require a 15 ft chimney or taller. There are a couple easier breathing models out there, but they are above the $1K budget.

 

[Stanford41d]

That looks like a short chimney, maybe 11ft? If that is correct it will be a problem with many modern stoves. Most often they require a 15 ft chimney or taller. There are a couple easier breathing models out there, but they are above the $1K budget.

Yeah, that has been a concern of mine. The distance from floor to ceiling is 7 ft. The distance from ceiling joist to roof penetration is maybe 2 1/2 ft. Then the distance from roof to vent cap at top of chimney is probably another 3 ft. So, I'm probably at about 13 feet total. So, I'm probably out of luck all together. Perhaps this contributed to the reasons why the old Forester brand wood burning insert did not work well.
Maybe I'll have to revert to my other idea of back up/supplemental heat: a vented propane heater of some sort.

 

[brad wilton]

i have a dovre 400 heats well for small stove.only problem is you have to keep feeding it wood, small firebox doesn't hold a lot of wood for long burns.if you have time not a problem but forget overnight burns.

 

[claydogg84]

My chimney liner is six inch diameter. It does not appear to be insulated. It is flexible and I'm assuming to be stainless steel. My house is small rectangular shaped house made of cinder blocks and clad in vinyl siding. The chimney is also a rectangular cinder block shape on the outside wall. The chimney has a terracotta liner inside the cinder block and the metal liner is run inside the terracotta liner.

Because you have an external chimney it is recommended that you insulate your liner.

 

[Grisu]

Take some exact measurements of your fireplace and see if you can fit the Pacific Energy True North in there. (broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/products/wood/fireplaces-2/truenorth/)
It is listed with less than 28" in height (plus allow 1" for attaching the liner) and only needs a 12' flue at a minimum. Price is about $1000 so just in your budget.

 

[begreen]

Good suggestion!

 

[TheRambler]

Probably wouldnt be too hard to add 3-4ft onto that chimney either, and it would make a huge difference for draft. Heck even 2ft would be good.

 

[Stanford41d]

Thankse="Grisu, post: 1827056, member: 15236"]Take some exact measurements of your fireplace and see if you can fit the Pacific Energy True North in there. (broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/products/wood/fireplaces-2/truenorth/)
It is listed with less than 28" in height (plus allow 1" for attaching the liner) and only needs a 12' flue at a minimum. Price is about $1000 so just in your budget.[/quote]
thank

Take some exact measurements of your fireplace and see if you can fit the Pacific Energy True North in there. (broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/products/wood/fireplaces-2/truenorth/)
It is listed with less than 28" in height (plus allow 1" for attaching the liner) and only needs a 12' flue at a minimum. Price is about $1000 so just in your budget.

Thank you Grisu. I will do that. But, I have a question for you. How did you determine that this stove needs a 12 flue at a minimum? Just curious. Also, the height of that stove is nearly identical to the Englander 13NCH, which is priced at $649 at Home Depot and has a good reputation. Do you know what its flue distance requirements are?
**** Also, when you guys reference flue height minimums, what exactly does that entail? Are we talking distance from the throat opening at the top of the fireplace fire box to the roof cap?
Thanks!

 

[Stanford41d]

Probably wouldnt be too hard to add 3-4ft onto that chimney either, and it would make a huge difference for draft. Heck even 2ft would be good.

Thanks. That is a thought. Would that require me to extend the terracotta liner, too? Or, could I just extend metal sleeve that is encasing terracotta liner and pull the chimney liner up with it?

 

[claydogg84]

Thanks. That is a thought. Would that require me to extend the terracotta liner, too? Or, could I just extend metal sleeve that is encasing terracotta liner and pull the chimney liner up with it?

If you're going to try to build up past the terra cotta you will need to put an adapter plate on the top and then add a 3 foot section of double or triple wall pipe.

 

[Grisu]

How did you determine that this stove needs a 12 flue at a minimum?

It is stated in the manual where you will also find it for the 13NC. Most Englander stoves recommend a minimum of 15 ft. PE stoves are usually known to be "easy breathers" that can get away with a short flue. I have my PE Super insert on a 13 ft liner and it drafts beautifully.

Also, when you guys reference flue height minimums, what exactly does that entail? Are we talking distance from the throat opening at the top of the fireplace fire box to the roof cap?

Either from the flue collar at the top of the stove, some also add in the length of the firebox. See the manual of the stove you are interested in.

Thanks. That is a thought. Would that require me to extend the terracotta liner, too? Or, could I just extend metal sleeve that is encasing terracotta liner and pull the chimney liner up with it?

You would add 3 ft of class A chimney on top. Most manufacturers have an adapter that allows to connect the steel liner to the class A.

 

[Stanford41d]

It is stated in the manual where you will also find it for the 13NC. Most Englander stoves recommend a minimum of 15 ft. PE stoves are usually known to be "easy breathers" that can get away with a short flue. I have my PE Super insert on a 13 ft liner and it drafts beautifully.


Either from the flue collar at the top of the stove, some also add in the length of the firebox. See the manual of the stove you are interested in.


You would add 3 ft of class A chimney on top. Most manufacturers have an adapter that allows to connect the steel liner to the class A.

Ok, thanks again. You are a wealth of knowledge. Now, I need to google those manuals. Looks like I'll have yet more options/scenarios to mull over. At first thought, I'm wondering if I'd come out better with the Englander and extending my flue by 3 ft, cost wise. One of the big savings its seems on the Englander stoves is that they can be purchased online, and shipped to nearest Home Depot for free. I've not researched these other brands like Pacific stove you suggested much, yet. But, I suspect they can be purchased online but would shipping would be costly.
*** I have found the manual for Englander online at their website.

 

[Grisu]

There is only one dealer that sells PE stoves online. You would be better off to look for a PE dealer on their website: (broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/dealers/dealer-finder/)
I think you have a few options not too far away.

You would probably be happy with either stove. Nevertheless, I think with your short flue the True North has a better chance of working without any other modification.

 

[Stanford41d]

There is only one dealer that sells PE stoves online. You would be better off to look for a PE dealer on their website: (broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/dealers/dealer-finder/)
I think you have a few options not too far away.

You would probably be happy with either stove. Nevertheless, I think with your short flue the True North has a better chance of working without any other modification.

I've researched the manual on the Englander and they call for 15 ft. from floor to vent top. So, that puts me pretty close. I'm headed back home this afternoon. In the next day or so, I'll try to get some more accurate measurements of both the overall height of chimney and fire box. It would be great for my budget if I can go with the $649 Englander and possibly not have to extend chimney height.
Uh oh, just had a thought, in the Englander manual they show the stove on the floor of home and minimum flue height is shown from floor to to vent top.
***** Another thing I haven't quite been able to confirm is: can a stove that has vent on top, be placed on floor in front of hearth, which is about 14 inches in height, and turn the vent off back of stove with an elbow, run approximately two feet horizontally and turn up into the chimney liner ?

 

[begreen]

The12 ft min flue height comes from the TN19 manual for the stove on page 9. Different stoves have different air passage manifolds. The shorter the manifold run and with less 90 deg turns, the easier the stove will breath, thus a shorter chimney requirement.

Note that the TN19 has minimal, ember protection only hearth requirements while the 13NC has stiff R=2.0 hearth insulation requirements. Regardless, putting the stove on the floor is not a good plan. You don't want to come out of the stove with a 90 elbow, then horiz to another 90. That will spoil draft for sure and will lead to an unpleasant burning experience.

 

[NJ_Burner08002]

Thank you for your response. You have me thinking more about the inserts, though I have been enamored with the thought of a stove out in the room. Home Depot sells the 13NCI for $1099. Is that about as cheap as anyone else?
Now that I might have to settle for an insert, I'm wondering about finding a replacement damper for my current insert. I'm wondering if I could just partially disassemble it, clean it up good, fabricate and install a block off plate, etc. and see if I could get the old one to get me through this winter (?)
When you say the chimney must be at least 15 ft tall, is that from top of fireplace box opening to the tip top termination point above the roof? I would estimate that from the lintel of my fireplace to the cap on the roof, is probably close to 15 ft, maybe a shade less. If it were only say 13 or 14 ft, would that be a big deal?
Thanks.

CW 2500 insert ran me 719.00 With the face plate, shipping and tax 962.00 from Rural King.

 

[RickBlaine]

Stanford:

I don't have much time to write tonight (I will tomorrow) but wanted to throw my 2 cents in. The people on this forum are amazing and helpful- follow their advice to the exact letter....don't bend the rules, don't "hope" your way to a solution- just listen.

Please post pics with EXACT measurements. 1 inch too short is a no-go.

I have a 1957 brick ranch home with a brick fireplace on an external wall. Chimney run was 12 feet. I am new to wood burning, and earlier this year installed a NC-13 stove (not an insert) from the good people of England Stove works in Virginia. I also looked at the True North, but for reasons I can post tomorrow went with the NC-13 free-standing stove. But I leave you with one reason tonight- their customer service is right out of a dream.

So I fit the NC-13 into my brick fireplace, added a 6 inch INSULATED double-wall stainless steel liner, a 3-foot "extension" sticking on top of (and secured to) the terra cotta liner sticking above my chimney to give me 15 feet of "run". It drafts perfectly, runs like Steve McQueen's Mustang in the movie, Bullitt, and heats my entire 1450 sq foot house. I use a pedestal fan in front of and to the side of the stove. I can use my house's gas forced air central fan to distribute heat evenly, but this works. I have seen other members here on hearth.com use a homemade battery back up to run a fan during power outages. I don't have a link, but it works for them. I am in Chicago and we never lose power, and always have gas heat.

After burning wood with the NC-13, the radiant heat has spoiled me.

Here are some pics showing before/after, with my custom block-off plate, 3-foot extension, and dimensions:

[/URL][/IMG]

By the way, if you CALL Home Depot and mention a Lowe's, Menards, Ace Hardware, or even a Harbor Freight 10% or 15% off coupon, Home Depot will allow it. Many members here have done that with the England NC-13 and NC-30 sold at Home Depot.

After another couple of years, I will pick up a catalytic stove to extend burn times. But for now, I wanted to know if I could "get into" wood burning. I can. I am addicted. Welcome Stanford...welcome to the madness!

 

[Stanford41d]

CW 2500 insert ran me 719.00 With the face plate, shipping and tax 962.00 from Rural King.

That's a good price. I'll check them out. Thanks.

 

[Stanford41d]

Stanford:

I don't have much time to write tonight (I will tomorrow) but wanted to throw my 2 cents in. The people on this forum are amazing and helpful- follow their advice to the exact letter....don't bend the rules, don't "hope" your way to a solution- just listen.

Please post pics with EXACT measurements. 1 inch too short is a no-go.

I have a 1957 brick ranch home with a brick fireplace on an external wall. Chimney run was 12 feet. I am new to wood burning, and earlier this year installed a NC-13 stove (not an insert) from the good people of England Stove works in Virginia. I also looked at the True North, but for reasons I can post tomorrow went with the NC-13 free-standing stove. But I leave you with one reason tonight- their customer service is right out of a dream.

So I fit the NC-13 into my brick fireplace, added a 6 inch INSULATED double-wall stainless steel liner, a 3-foot "extension" sticking on top of (and secured to) the terra cotta liner sticking above my chimney to give me 15 feet of "run". It drafts perfectly, runs like Steve McQueen's Mustang in the movie, Bullitt, and heats my entire 1450 sq foot house. I use a pedestal fan in front of and to the side of the stove. I can use my house's gas forced air central fan to distribute heat evenly, but this works. I have seen other members here on hearth.com use a homemade battery back up to run a fan during power outages. I don't have a link, but it works for them. I am in Chicago and we never lose power, and always have gas heat.

After burning wood with the NC-13, the radiant heat has spoiled me.

Here are some pics showing before/after, with my custom block-off plate, 3-foot extension, and dimensions:

[/URL][/IMG]

By the way, if you CALL Home Depot and mention a Lowe's, Menards, Ace Hardware, or even a Harbor Freight 10% or 15% off coupon, Home Depot will allow it. Many members here have done that with the England NC-13 and NC-30 sold at Home Depot.

After another couple of years, I will pick up a catalytic stove to extend burn times. But for now, I wanted to know if I could "get into" wood burning. I can. I am addicted. Welcome Stanford...welcome to the madness!

 

[Stanford41d]

Stanford:

I don't have much time to write tonight (I will tomorrow) but wanted to throw my 2 cents in. The people on this forum are amazing and helpful- follow their advice to the exact letter....don't bend the rules, don't "hope" your way to a solution- just listen.

Please post pics with EXACT measurements. 1 inch too short is a no-go.

I have a 1957 brick ranch home with a brick fireplace on an external wall. Chimney run was 12 feet. I am new to wood burning, and earlier this year installed a NC-13 stove (not an insert) from the good people of England Stove works in Virginia. I also looked at the True North, but for reasons I can post tomorrow went with the NC-13 free-standing stove. But I leave you with one reason tonight- their customer service is right out of a dream.

So I fit the NC-13 into my brick fireplace, added a 6 inch INSULATED double-wall stainless steel liner, a 3-foot "extension" sticking on top of (and secured to) the terra cotta liner sticking above my chimney to give me 15 feet of "run". It drafts perfectly, runs like Steve McQueen's Mustang in the movie, Bullitt, and heats my entire 1450 sq foot house. I use a pedestal fan in front of and to the side of the stove. I can use my house's gas forced air central fan to distribute heat evenly, but this works. I have seen other members here on hearth.com use a homemade battery back up to run a fan during power outages. I don't have a link, but it works for them. I am in Chicago and we never lose power, and always have gas heat.

After burning wood with the NC-13, the radiant heat has spoiled me.

Here are some pics showing before/after, with my custom block-off plate, 3-foot extension, and dimensions:

[/URL][/IMG]

By the way, if you CALL Home Depot and mention a Lowe's, Menards, Ace Hardware, or even a Harbor Freight 10% or 15% off coupon, Home Depot will allow it. Many members here have done that with the England NC-13 and NC-30 sold at Home Depot.

After another couple of years, I will pick up a catalytic stove to extend burn times. But for now, I wanted to know if I could "get into" wood burning. I can. I am addicted. Welcome Stanford...welcome to the madness!

Thanks a bunch, Rick! I really appreciate your input. The pictures are great. And, I really appreciate your enthusiasm! When I get home from work tomorrow, I'm going to start tearing into my existing fireplace insert, and see what I can find out about my situation. I need to establish for sure whether or not my metal liner is insulated or not. I suspect it is not. And, I want to determine if I have enough height in my fireplace for an installation like yours. That is exactly what I was envisioning, the way your stove is sitting in your fireplace. If my liner is not insulated, I'm wondering if it would be about as cost effective and easy in terms of installation, to just run insulated chimney pipe straight up through the terracotta liner and ditch the liner.
Again, much to think about. Speaking of which, when I was in town today, I picked up a piece of 26 gauge metal, tap con screws, and high temp sealant to make my block off plate. I'm toying with the idea of fabricating a damper plate to replace the one that is missing in my current insert, and seeing if I could get some use out this old Forester fireplace insert. I don't know how old it is or what model it is. I'll try to download a pic of it for you guys to check out.
Thanks so much, for all your input.